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Grey_Mouser
01-02-2006, 01:50
BRCN,

Don't know how others feel, but I just got off the map...I happily changed from the Wazara map to Schweinfurt looking forward to flying a Jug and Lightning...took me a minute or two to get to my base, take off...I was up for no more than 30 seconds...and viola...there appears 2 Bf109's...maybe 2 or 3000 meters above me????? G-2's no less! How did they get there so fast I was wondering???

I proceeded to take off in a Jug and Lightning no less than 4 times only to be greated by B&Z'rs within seconds of my take off...one guy I kicked as my wheels weren't even retracted...the bomber pilots were getting waxed upon take off and couldn't get to their objectives. BTW, teams were not far off, but often red flies bombers on that map depending on the pilots present which further compounds the problem.

Please get rid of this map and bring back the old one....my opinion it is terrible...we didn't even move the spits up to a high base to counter the 109's. Big fat planes like Jugs and bombers need the altitude to climb...if there is an issue, move the lightning downwards but get rid of that high blue base please.

I actually logged off before the mission was over to write this as I was so disgusted.

MajorDamage
01-02-2006, 03:06
Yeah I agree, I was just on that map also. Its supposed to be about the Schweinfurt raid and people used to grab bombers and form up over the high base. Now there's no point cos you just get picked on by FW190s from the minute you're off the runway. Folks should stop moaning about whether a map is 'fair' or not and just keep the teams even and enjoy. If the blue team need altitude they can spend a few minutes climbing for it.

NS-IceFire
01-02-2006, 03:29
We did have a few clowns to make things more painful....but I was under the impression that the new high base would have the FW190A-4 and maybe the Bf110 and nothing else...but apparently the Bf109G-2's are there too...they should be at the original base.

We got jumped over our own bases within a minute of the map starting...it was a VERY hard fight and most of the fights were won simply because Defbond, Wild, Dawg, Major, and myself were generally competent and capable fighter pilots and the Blue team was not nearly as well organized.

This may require a bit of tweaking...I agree with the additional base issue but I'm wondering if it needs to be in another location. I'll look at the map itself and see what I can glean.

Brcn
01-02-2006, 12:35
Hi,

First or all I'd like to say that I never do any changes without asking in this forum. The Schweinfurt mission was discussed here before I made any changes, and most of the ideas there encourages the changes. However, this doesn't of course mean that the changes were what it needed, it might have just made the map worse.

The reason I suggested a change was because there was some complaints about the map.

After I made the final changes on the map, i played it when the server was full at least two times. In each case the blue side lost the mission. Yet, it was not as easy as it was before for the red team. Reds lost more planes than usual. And everybody was happy with the map. But Mouser and Icefire, you weren't there when it was played, so i surely accept the fact that you didnt like it or wouldn't like it when i tested, even disgusted.

Considering the time of your post, I think the server had less people than it usually had.

I still think you would like it if it was played when the server was full. When I tested it with the server full, 40 % of the red team was at the higher base, others flew spitfires most of the time. After the blue team's initial attack to bomber base, the spitfires came and shot down or scared the 109s. And then the map was played as it was played before, red team occupying the blue airspace and most dogfights took place over the target area and blue airfields.

Of course, none of my points are to say that I will not make any changes to any map if i disagree. The maps are not in my monopoly, I will do whatever change wanted if they are actually wanted by the majority. If most people feel that the map is totally unplayable by one side, red or blue, I will try to make it better with the ideas that are written here.

Thanks for the feedback, and please offer your suggestions to make this and any other maps better.

TheDawg
01-02-2006, 16:16
I was asked to join in, and I agree.
The 109s' were on top of us too quick.
And several newer pilots were taking a weak out and pounding the planes as they took off and landed, like a dam quake server. As was noted, some were called on it, one was kicked, and the bugger came back and was at it again after TheMouse left.
By the time we jockied to blue base to attack, several 190's and 109s were already in position and countered the move. Powerfully.

Please,DO NOT get rid of this map! Maybe just a tweak-

that said, I think other maps are also the same as this.



Theres another map that has a nicer 190, the nicest plane red has is La and P-39.
The blue base is so far away as to let the 190's get to 3000 meters.
And I see some decent pilots waiting for the red flyers to get the wheels up, and get to 500 meters before getting pounced. The similarities are strikingly similar. In fact, see a few maps like this.


DawgThoughts:

I suggest the ONLY maps that see online rotation are mappers that fly them- to hear, and see, and tweak. Quickly
I have yet to make a coop map that I doesnt get a yank here or there after the first or second run. Then, its perfect.

One problem I think I see is mappers are unable to effectively, quickly alter the maps already in rotation.

norrismcwhirter
01-02-2006, 18:13
BRCN, can you just remind us all of the bonus situation with that map? i.e. what planes are where depending on who won the previous map? I seem to recall there being G2s at the high alt base if blue had won the previous map which, considering they're a bonus and not present all the time, sounds OK.

Also, like the P47, the 190 needs "time to climb" and this patently wasn't the case on the map before when you were set upon by P38s from the high base. So, I'd say any arguments should be considered with this in mind.

Ta,
Norris

Brcn
01-02-2006, 21:19
Hi,

The A-6 is the bonus plane for the blue team, P51C-5NT is the bonus for the red team. I ve made no changes to bonus planes. They were also there on the original version.

I removed the G2 from the higher base for the blues.

Thanks.

NS-IceFire
01-02-2006, 23:23
Hi,

First or all I'd like to say that I never do any changes without asking in this forum. The Schweinfurt mission was discussed here before I made any changes, and most of the ideas there encourages the changes. However, this doesn't of course mean that the changes were what it needed, it might have just made the map worse.

The reason I suggested a change was because there was some complaints about the map.

After I made the final changes on the map, i played it when the server was full at least two times. In each case the blue side lost the mission. Yet, it was not as easy as it was before for the red team. Reds lost more planes than usual. And everybody was happy with the map. But Mouser and Icefire, you weren't there when it was played, so i surely accept the fact that you didnt like it or wouldn't like it when i tested, even disgusted.
No I certainly agreed that some work was needed. I just am commenting on my latest experience on the map. I wasn't there when testing was going on so I sort of missed out on that opportunity. You know that I do approach these things like a mission designer and I know full well that sometimes changes need to be made.

Lots of things to consider...its very hard to try and guess how these things play out till you fly it a bit.

Grey_Mouser
01-02-2006, 23:32
Check the original thread and my last reply...to summarize....most maps are either "red" or "blue" favored...very few are even. The quicker we understand this the better.

The hard part is understanding why and to what degree...plane performance, objectives, the location of the objectives in proximity to the bases, the pilots and how many like mud moving vs. air to air, altitude, distance, AAA all these things impact the outcome and it is difficult to predict the outcome until we play.

My frustration was really because I liked the old map...I fly both red and blue, and this was one of the very rare maps that I could take a Jug or Lightning and enter the battle with good altitude without a 1/2hour climb....It went from that to enjoying a 30 second flight, without an inflight meal or movie, but an excellent view when I bailed out....Personally, the outcome was very predictable when the blue base was moved to high altitude and the G2's were added to one base but the spits were not moved.

My energy comes from us understanding why maps unfold the way they do so we can enjoy them...the map went from a "red" map to a "blue" map. I don't think that was the intention...I hope not...but that was the reality...small map, close bases, best climbing plane at high base, many cool red bombers for red to fly, lots of AAA....

I liked the old map but I am only one of many here....just please don't fool yourself into thinking that a map can be made "even" for all...it can be enjoyable or not enjoyable, but rarely can it be "even"...there are a few exceptions, but most maps slant one way or the other...one map has a Bf109Z, Ta 152, Me262 vs La7 and Yaks...that is a "blue" map for sure...another map pits 109G2 and G6 along with a Fw 190A4 Vs an La5Fn....a red map for sure.

I wouldn't want anyone to take my frustration personally....frankly speaking, we can predict how a map will unfold, but we don't know for sure until it is played...and sometimes it has to be played serveral times then we tweak and adjust from there....I can tell you this, I will not type <map<Objective_Schweinfurt again for a good time in a Jug at least not with a high base with planes that climb better than the Jug!

For me, I like to fly both sides red and blue...I love first to fly US and British planes, then Fw's, then Russian planes and lastly Japanese planes...so some maps I switch from side to side...I always like a good Schweinfurt Jug, a Novogodred La-5, a Kuban_43 Fw, a Midway Wildcat etc....that is what frosted me, no longer could I fly a good Schweinfurt Jug....just a flaming ball of fire headed towards earth....I couldn't even fly away to climb...that always gets me in a bad mood. :eek:

BTW...I predict Objective_Moonlight will be a "red" map :mp5:

Brcn
02-02-2006, 11:41
Hi,

I think A-4 does not have an advantage (in climbing) against P47. That's why I thought it should stay.

I agree with your comments with some maps being one sided, and I do like that. What I disagree is, due to my experiences with this map, is its not being red sided anymore. It is still a "red" map, but only harder for reds than it used to be. I think the removal of G2 will make it easier for the red team.

Thanks

Boemher
02-02-2006, 11:57
I think having the Bf 109's - all models - at the lower blue base, and switching the Fw 190 A4 to an Fw 190 A5 would be reasonable. The Fw 190 A6 is still good as a bonus and the P38 can outclimb whatever Fw 190 A model you care to mention.

The reason I ask for the Fw 190 A5 is that Schweinfurt was 1943 yes? Fw 190 A5 was the predominant version in 1943, and as Oleg says here regarding the Fw 190 A4;
________________________________________________________________
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:

quote:
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Oleg is it possible to introduce the 1.42 ATA Fw 190 A4 and also a 1.68 ATA rating for the Fw 190 A6 ? quote:



A4 1,42 ata will have the same performance as normal A5.
Ist it is more easy to use A5 on servers instead of A4 when neccessary?

A5 and A6 with 1,65 ATA - there is problem in modeling and restiction. there was at the beginning of use such pressure the rule to do not use it over some altitude (Like 190F8), but more close to the end of the war was removed this limitation (however the engine had smaller resource before repair or replacement and was overheating too more than 2 time faster).

So... we need to make a program that will use such restictions... and in total to add 4 planes (and 5 together with A4 1.42)

I don't think that we can do additional programming for it. And I think we aleady ahve no time to put even only A4 1.42 in 4.03.

Lets wait and see if we will be able to do something from this after 4.03.
______________________________________________________________

The Fw 190 A5 is effectively a Fw 190 A4 - the performance of the A4 in game is not how the Fw 190 A4 perfomed on the Western front. We need to add the Fw 190 A5 instead of the A4 because the A4 we have currently is an Oleg derated special.

norrismcwhirter
02-02-2006, 12:54
^ I think that would be a useful compromise considering the climbing capabilities involved.

Ta,
Norris

TheDawg
02-02-2006, 13:34
Cant wait to fly it.

Boemher
02-02-2006, 17:14
I agree Jtd, I fly on both sides on this map and enjoy the change from the Eastern front.

Id still like the Fw 190 A4 on the upper base to be removed in favour of the Fw 190 A5. It is pretty clear that no negative ' balance ' is needed on the Fw 190 front when the Spitfire IX and P38 J are available specifically when the P38 starts at an elevated base both are very good fighters and have no trouble competing with the A5.

stanford
02-02-2006, 17:28
P38 compete with A5? Now I know the likes of yourself, Jtd, Mouser etc. etc. may think that, but for joe average like me, the P38 is not on a level with any single engine fighter.

Boemher
02-02-2006, 17:40
Hi Stan

The P38 scores in its climb rate, level speed, speed at height, zoom climb and also turn rate at slow to medium speeds.

It is not the type of fighter you can get 10 kills in but 4 or 5 german fighters is doable and I have regularly done :) Interestingly enough it is easier to get Fw 190's than Bf 109's in the P38.

NS-IceFire
03-02-2006, 01:11
P-38 is good for getting into a commanding position and also good in 1vs1 fights. However, it fails a little when it comes to exploiting the good position aka. actually killing something in a melee. It's also not good to be in a P-38 if something shows up on your high 6.

I had so much hoped to see a few P-38 mix it up with the FW's in the shoot the syndicate event. Take it to 8000 meters and fly circles around your opponents. Sadly, things didn't develop to my likings and most of us would pick a Spit (including me when I got bored of not killing anything ;)).
I might take a P-38 the next time around and see how it goes for me. I'd want to have someone else flying P-38 just to wing with. And that person would have to be as experienced or moreso than I am. Its definately not a plane to just jump into....

Zorin
03-02-2006, 01:13
I don't see any problem with the entire blue side starting from low base. Certainly not the FW 190A-5. Roc is not everything. If it is, I'd like to have an airstart for all the Soviet birds on maps that feature a 109.

I have only played this map once since the changes, made a sortie with a 190 A-5 scoring 10 kills and a sortie with a P-47 scoring 1 kill in about two thirds the time. I really can't see how this is a red map or how blue is at a disadvantage.

No, if you have the Bf 110, my Bf110 ;) , start from the low base it will have no chance to climb high enough to be of any use. Even now it is nearly impossible to get any Spit or american plane down with it.

Grey_Mouser
03-02-2006, 02:13
I might take a P-38 the next time around and see how it goes for me. I'd want to have someone else flying P-38 just to wing with. And that person would have to be as experienced or moreso than I am. Its definately not a plane to just jump into....

The P-38 would be a much more effective plane if it just had an elevator....the nose mounted weapons give you an opportunity to land large amounts of High Velocity Lead from long distances, however the aircraft just doesn't come through when it is time....Against the right plane set in the right conditions, it is survivable no doubt, but not what I would call an "offensive weapon" like the Fw or Spit can be.

One of the guys mentioned...it is one of the worst planes to be in when a guy gets on your six...it is because it can't change direction well...now the L Late can due to its airbrake and powerboost aileron...it is just the opposite...few planes can stay with it in high speed manuevers.

It is more effective in Cockpit on/no external servers than it is in our environment because it just isn't agile in roll or elevator...it should not be a good rolling plane, but it should have an effective elevator without too much pitch...maybe one day! Soon I hope :D