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Zorin
24-02-2006, 19:08
I'm about to apply the final tweaks for the Brjansk map and after so mutch support from Brcn, it shouldn't take too long and be as free of any failures as possible :)

So I thougth about a new map. Something semi-historical. A german carrier mission on the Normandy map. The carrier, japanese standard carrier as a standin for the Graf Zeppelin, would be positioned near the north western shore, so giving the pilots the possibilty to land at the airbase near the coast. The planes would be '41 Stukas and '41 F-2 /F-4. They can all start from the carrier, even with 100% fuel(only an inch above water but who cares when they fly and usually noone flies with 100% fuel). The Stuka can load a SC 500 without a problem and so should be able to engage a british merchant convoy.

The british forces start from the island, Hurricane IIB and Spits(need your advice which versions) and Mossie AI bomber. They shall engage the Tirpitz on her way through the channel being escorted by some light destroyers.

What you think, any good?

LeVola
24-02-2006, 19:20
Sounds good. Can you add hooks on 109;) I think stuka can land without it.

Zorin
24-02-2006, 19:21
No, too sad... :(
But therefore we have the airbase nearby. ;)

MajorDamage
24-02-2006, 21:01
I like the idea in principle of having a map with a German carrier, but I'm not sure about it taking place in the channel. If the Graf Zeppelin had been finished and she came out of port she would more likely have made a break for the Atlantic via the North Sea and the Iceland-UK gap to raid convoys. Steaming down the English Channel would have been pretty suicidal (even though the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau managed to do it!).

How about using a different map to represent say the northwest coast of Scotland? From there the Graf Zeppelin's stukas could be striking at convoys bound for Liverpool and the land-based RAF could be tasked to sink the carrier.

All just a suggestion, I'm sure the map will be fun whichever way you do it. Keep up the good work! :)

Brcn
24-02-2006, 21:50
Nice idea. It 's nice to have some dedicated map makers :D

NS-IceFire
24-02-2006, 22:18
I like the Atlantic idea. Have the German carrier have the objective of sinking a British convoy and then setup the RN Carriers with Wildcats and we're good!

Coral Sea dogfight map should do the trick!

EDIT: Oh...maybe use the German submarine as well and have the Allies hunt for the subs at the same time! (Wildcats can carry a pair of 100lb bombs which is sufficient for sinking subs)

Zorin
25-02-2006, 00:06
Thanks for the input guys :)

But remember, we need a german airbase besides the Graf Zeppelin. So an pure atlantic ocean map is out I think. But majors idea sounds feasible, but we would need a map that would give the germans a norwegian airbase. Maybe Murmansk again..have to check the maps.

Zorin
25-02-2006, 01:10
Had a look at the maps. How about Kurland as the atlantic facing part of Normandy, making the GZ heading for Brest along the french coast to meet with the survived Bismarck(Tirpitz) to counter attack the british fleet?

If that is too far off I'd understand it ;)

Grey_Mouser
25-02-2006, 04:52
I'd like to have the flyable mosquito...would be great fun to shoot down the 109's as the Mosquito has a definite speed advantage as well as firepower...but I understand if you didn't do that.

As for spits...probably 41 and 42 versions aught to be good...the 43 is a waste of time as it is.

Zorin
25-02-2006, 11:11
@GM: Since I don't want the map to be later than late '41 the Mosquito, as a fighter, is out of the question. Especially since the Stuka pilots wouldn't have one bit of a chance to get home safely, which would completely ruin the fun for the blue bomber pilots.

@JtD: Every base has a radius representing the safe area in which you can successfully crashland to be safe, but making a safe ditch the only opportunity for the blue to get back safe and with points? No, I wouldn't want that and because we only have one carrier, a landbase would be needed nonetheless, because the carrier itself would be always needed for the take-offs.

Remember, we can't have more than one german carrier, which at the same time, gives the natural restriction to have it as a target for bombing attacks. No chance to take off from a carrier under heavy attack.

Firelok
25-02-2006, 11:50
What about Fw200 condor as a bonus plane for blue, this is exactly the sort of engagement when they might appear?

Yellow 2
25-02-2006, 12:40
What about an attack on a British arctic convoy to Russia using the Murmansk map with Carriers and land based aircraft available for both sides. I don't know historically if the German front line got as far north as this but then this map is going to stretch reality a bit anyway!

Cheers :)

Zorin
25-02-2006, 18:07
This would work aswell, since russia and norway are bordering near Murmansk.

Zorin
26-02-2006, 17:29
Now, shall I just start the maps and show first results or wait for more ideas, more differentiated input?

Impo
26-02-2006, 17:59
sounds interesting :)

for those interested, the Marine-Stukastaffel 4/186 intended for the Zepelin was already operational in Fall Blau, the invasion of Poland and equipped with Ju87B afaik.

Zorin
01-03-2006, 10:15
A more concrete map idea. The basics are finished and now I need your opinions before I start the inis etc.

Set during April 1941. North Africa, Rommel just took Bardia and is advancing east. British forces try to force him into retreat.

We have both german carriers presents, the KMS Hindenburg and KMS Graf Zeppelin, lying off the shore near Al Bayda. Both carry Ju 87 B-2 and Bf 109 F4.

The german base on the northern island(Kreta, not visible on the map) is the bomber station. Bf 110(pure bomber loadout), Ju 88(up to 4xSD500) and MC.202 '41.

The western base just has some old Hs 123s and Bf 109E/Bs.

British forces have all the '41 Spits at the northern base and Mosquito and Blenheim bombers at the southern, aswell as Hurricane IIbs.

Germans will have to attack the british troops which broke through their lines and made it to the mountains were they set up a small base and their second target, bomber target, is to destroy the ship convoy delivering resupplys for the british troops.

The brits task is to attack Rommels camp near the frontline and defend their troops and resupply convoy.

Bardia_Map (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Bardia_Map.jpg)

Bardia_britishconvoy (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Bardia_britishconvoy.jpg)

Bardia_britishtroops (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Bardia_britishtroops.jpg)

Bardia_germantroops (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Bardia_germantroops.jpg)

MajorDamage
01-03-2006, 12:23
No offence Zorin, and you're perfectly entitled to make any map you like, but I thought we were talking about this taking place in either the Atlantic or the Arctic. How did these carriers get through the Straits of Gibraltar?

To me, and I stress this is only my personal opinion, this might be a bit too far in the fantasy direction. I'm sure others will just see it as a fun map and not worry too much about the historical background.

What's everyone else think?

Zorin
01-03-2006, 13:48
I completely agree with you. I never intended this to be nothing else but a fun map, simply because of the fact you pointed out. But we just need to delete the carriers and take the Stukas and F4 to the eastern airbase and things should be fine. Making it a nice deset map.

I have a artic map at the same development status as this lying around aswell, maybe that will be more to everyones liking.

Simply the fact of 2 german carriers, so necessary for game flow, is too far fetch for UKD... what a pitty. :(

Boemher
01-03-2006, 13:56
Bf 109 T carrier version was a Bf 109 E with extra gear and longer span. The best likeness for this Bf 109 in IL2 would be the Bf 109 E7 Z.

A better suited carrier plane for the Luftwaffe would be the Fw 190 A4 . cough.

Zorin
01-03-2006, 13:59
The FW 190 can't take off from a carrier. Tried every plane at every weather/fuel/loadout situation.

And the 109E was chosen during 1939/40, sure they would have refitted/build F modells for the carrier if it would have been in service.

Boemher
13-03-2006, 11:33
:) Nonsense Zorin ! I can take off the Fw 190 A6 from a carrier, A4 shouldnt be too much of a problem. I can even land one on the deck, but have to nose over to prevent falling back off it.

As for the Bf 109 F series being upgraded to fly off of carriers its no more far stretched than the Fw 190 being converted. The only reason the E was converted was that it was the premier Lw fighter at the time of planning. The Fw 190 had a stronger airframe and gear and also had better range and payload capabilities and would surely have been looked at for the next Carrier type.

I like the convoy Idea it would be great to get some CAT Hurri Mk I's to fend off Fw 200's

TheDawg
13-03-2006, 12:56
The FW 190 can't take off from a carrier. Tried every plane at every weather/fuel/loadout situation.

And the 109E was chosen during 1939/40, sure they would have refitted/build F modells for the carrier if it would have been in service.

+1 to the nonsense.
I can take off and land a D0-335 from a carrier! Taking off with bombs is too tricky and no interest in practicing enough. but it can be done!!!

edit: ok, so we sucks at ze landings :wall:

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=47860

190takeoff.ntrk

Zorin
13-03-2006, 14:57
Well, I have no idea how you do it. Just tried both A6 and DO with good weather and 50% fuel and they dropped into the ocean like a stone.

I start from the spawn point of the standard japanese carrier, but it's not moving because that wouldn't be the case on the server.

Zorin
13-03-2006, 17:51
Here is the basic setup for the Murmansk convoy map.

As my previous maps were all too big I had to set up airstrips for both teams to give them landbases and keep the overall sieze to 3x3 spuares.

Germans have two carriers, a landbase and seaplane port near Vadso.

Brits have the Illustrious(option for a second carrier) and a russian bomber airstrip.

Map (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Map.jpg)

TheDawg
13-03-2006, 18:31
mmm, if I get a break I'll try carrier sitting still
I'm a coop kinda guy basically, so all my stuff is geared to that. carrier was moving at 12kph, not much, but may be the edge
landings a bitch, you cant see CRAT outta that thing, and you cant open the canopy either and stand on the seat

Zorin
14-03-2006, 02:48
So give me your feedback for the general set and tell me what year you want this to take place.

Russian airfield (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/russian_airfield.jpg)

British convoy (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/british_convoy.jpg)

German convoy (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/german_convoy.jpg)

German airfield (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/german_airfield.jpg)

NS-IceFire
14-03-2006, 03:32
Looks good Zorin! Very effective use and placement of objects without going overboard.

Zorin
14-03-2006, 17:12
Ok, I extended both airfields with two further runways.

German airfield (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/german_airfield_new.jpg)

Russian airfield (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/russian_airfield_new.jpg)

Scrappy_D
14-03-2006, 17:36
Looks very interesting :)

NS-IceFire
14-03-2006, 23:48
I am afraid you airfields are too small. I am not sure though, but I think each runway supports only about two planes.
I think its actually around 6 or 8. Like a carrier deck.

Zorin
14-03-2006, 23:58
Whatever is right, it is better to have more runways, because the carrier planes have to land there aswell.

Zorin
15-03-2006, 01:26
And now please tell me what year this should take place. Otherwise I can't proceed writing the ini and stuff like that.

LeVola
15-03-2006, 07:03
41-42 maybe?

MajorDamage
15-03-2006, 09:54
Well you're the map maker so you decide! I'd suggest winter of 41. Murmansk was the only ice-free port available during the winter. In the summer the convoys headed for Archangel.

Might make it a little early for the Fw190. Boemher will be upset. ;) :D

Boemher
15-03-2006, 11:16
Just have to pilot kill your Bombers using a Bf 109 F2 instead, in the name of map balance ofcourse, Major ;)

Brcn
15-03-2006, 11:27
I think mid or late 1942 will be fun.

MajorDamage
15-03-2006, 11:39
Actually Boemher, you were absolutley right about the FW190s and the Channel Dash BTW. The research I'd done up to that point amounted to reading a couple of sketchy accounts in books sitting on my shelves. Having delved into the subject a little deeper using this marvelous new fangled interweb thingy it is clear that the Fw190 was a very important feature of the Channel Dash, and so map balance or not it would be wrong not to include it.

Anyway, sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, I'll post about planeset soon in the original thread, where I intend to argue that the Spit Vb was vastly superior to the Fw190 A4 by virtue of the fact it was British. :p

Boemher
15-03-2006, 12:02
Excellent mate! thanks for the humour and for aknowledging that some of the stuff I post isnt just pulled out of my own arse because Im some sort of leather shorted sausage munching nazi whiner like some think :D

MajorDamage
15-03-2006, 14:16
Wearing tartan leather shorts whilst playing Deutschland Uber Alles on yer bagpipes?

TheDawg
15-03-2006, 14:39
Im some sort of leather shorted sausage munching nazi whiner
ya know...in some forums, thats a sig worthy quote!! :D

Zorin
15-03-2006, 14:42
Would it be alright to have the F4F-3 on the british carrier? I have no knowledge about this, so I definitly need your help.

Zorin
15-03-2006, 15:19
Planes:

Red: I-16 T18(L), Hurricane MKII FM(L), SU-2(L), DB3M(L), F4F-3(C)

Blue: 109E-7/Z (C), JU 87 B-2(C), 109F-2(L), 110 F-1(L)

Notice: There will be restrictions to the loadouts of red bombers, Ju 87 and Bf 110.

Boemher
15-03-2006, 15:46
Would it be alright to have the F4F-3 on the british carrier? I have no knowledge about this, so I definitly need your help.

Emphatic yes. The Fleet Air Arm used the Grumman Martlet the nearest plane in game is the F4F-3 just a different variant of the same aircraft.

TheDawg
15-03-2006, 16:13
Planes:

Red: I-16 T18(L), Hurricane MKII FM(L), SU-2(L), DB3M(L), F4F-3(C)

Blue: 109E-7/Z (C), JU 87 B-2(C), 109F-2(L), 110 F-1(L)

Notice: There will be restrictions to the loadouts of red bombers, Ju 87 and Bf 110.


Excellent, another Blue map

Zorin
15-03-2006, 16:14
I'm always open to suggestion for improvement.

Boemher
15-03-2006, 16:35
I think thais map will be excellent. The F4F-3 will own the Bf 109 E7 and the F2 can sit shooting at a Wildcat all day before it even scratches the paint. Its not unbalanced compared to most other maps, Id rather fly RED here than BLUE.

norrismcwhirter
15-03-2006, 17:00
ya know...in some forums, thats a sig worthy quote!! :D

Too late. I patented that one last year ;)

Sell it to you for a tenner, though :D

Firelok
15-03-2006, 20:01
What about including an Arado floatplane for blues very suitable engagement for them I think

TheDawg
15-03-2006, 20:39
I'm always open to suggestion for improvement.

How about planes.........regardless of year....that are well equiped. Equal footing. Fair match to one another.
Add the early I-185 to counter the maps that have 42 190s for example.
And stow the "it never existed" luggage below decks. For example I dare you to find me a photo of ONE real IL2-T...
Or maps where the red side doesnt get rockets.....but the blue has nose cannons?!?!


Red: I-16 T18(L), Hurricane MKII FM(L), SU-2(L), DB3M(L), F4F-3(C)

Blue: 109E-7/Z (C), JU 87 B-2(C), 109F-2(L), 110 F-1(L)

simply getting rid of the F-2 would make it pretty much hard for someone joining to pic the best side. Thats what I'm saying. Make it so whoever joins, looks at the planes, cant decide whats "best".

I mean, most of the maps, most of the players jump to the superior side, map after map after map.

regards-

Zorin
15-03-2006, 21:37
What about including an Arado floatplane for blues very suitable engagement for them I think

Forgot to mention, it's of course there, floatplane port at Vardo.


simply getting rid of the F-2 would make it pretty much hard for someone joining to pic the best side. Thats what I'm saying. Make it so whoever joins, looks at the planes, cant decide whats "best".

As Boehmer already pointed out, and I took the time to set up a mission where the 109E-7 / F-2(which will start fromt he landbase on the online mission) start from the carrier and the F4Fs already have altitude for prove, and now I can say it's a tough job to get the F4Fs down.

And there will be those small beasty I-16s around which out turn you all the time and the modified Hurri with her cannons is giving you a hard time aswell.

Furthermore, red side has bombers with far superior loadout.

So I'd say blue has no advantage at all.

stanford
16-03-2006, 03:18
Dawg, F-2 is pants. I don't think I've ever managed to shoot a plane down in it, and I can't see how it's going to be possible to shoot an F4F down with the BB guns it sports.

E-7 will be, although slow, more of a match for it. At least the guns will do something.

I'm really looking forward to this map, so here's hoping its online soon :)

Boemher
16-03-2006, 10:18
How about planes.........regardless of year....that are well equiped. Equal footing. Fair match to one another.
Add the early I-185 to counter the maps that have 42 190s for example.
And stow the "it never existed" luggage below decks. For example I dare you to find me a photo of ONE real IL2-T...
Or maps where the red side doesnt get rockets.....but the blue has nose cannons?!?!



simply getting rid of the F-2 would make it pretty much hard for someone joining to pic the best side. Thats what I'm saying. Make it so whoever joins, looks at the planes, cant decide whats "best".

I mean, most of the maps, most of the players jump to the superior side, map after map after map.

regards-

I-185 reaches near 600km/h on the deck, thats a good 60km/h faster than the A4 and because its a Russki bird its high wingloading is irrelevant it turns like an uber G2. If you go on those late war dogfighter furball maps you see them fighting with La7's, D9 45's Ki 84 C's and Bf 109 K4's.

Back to the Bf 109 F2, I havent been shot down by an F2 for maybe over a year. Its impossible for him to hold you in his sights long enough in a F6 on server. The E4/7 is going to get eaten alive by the F4F-3 just you wait and see.

Boemher
16-03-2006, 13:03
Wildcat has a high speed handling advantage and is a good turner. The 4 x .50 cals will make mince meat out of E4's DB engine. I didnt know there was a crap version of the I 185 :confused:

TheDawg
16-03-2006, 14:15
I fly the I-185 whenever possible. Great plane.
The M-71 is faster, but only in a shallow dive can I maintain 600. Closer to 550 flat, level. I read that it could do 670 flat and level, hasn't been my experience online game reality.
The M-82 has rockets, is slower, and not much better than an La5FN frankly.
In coops where the 185 had gone against any 42-43 190 it gives an excellent accounting of itself. In my humble experience- whoever gets the edge in altitude, or spots the other first generally wins (with the exception of skill- the lesser pilot is screwed either way)
The 185 will stall like a P-39 if you're not careful, its a bitch to take off in, rather squirrely, and finally its blackout to turn is about the same as most 190's.
Its hardly uber- certainly saw more real time than the 109-Z I flew in UK2 last week.

regards-

Zorin
16-03-2006, 15:22
There also is a crap I-185 that is not better than the A-4.

I think you underestimate the 109 E's speed and climb advantage.

I'd personally like to see a decent 41 Soviet front line fighter, maybe a Yak-7 or a Mig-3ud (instead of the Hurri). But I think the planeset is good enough to try it out before making any changes.

Remeber, it's set in Murmask, northern no-man's-land. Even giving you the Field Mod. version is a gift, cause it wasn't there before '42 ;)
They only had the I-15s and early Hurris up there.

Wild
16-03-2006, 20:54
Hi Guys!

Just a thought: I-16 T18 1933? Why not the I-16 T24 1939?

Leave the Hurricane out, put in the P-40E, P-40 Field Mod. or P-40M, & P-39N1.

Off Topic: I would love to see maps that are more balanced with planes that can actually fight each other, rather than a uber set vs cannon foder set.
Would love to fly the I-185 in some maps!

Wild

Visualize World Peace & Aim for the Head.

TheDawg
16-03-2006, 21:25
Why don't you give that F4F-3 vs. early 109 setup a try?


I did in QMB, hence my first post.
Yet, another blue map.
The I-16 in the map is the weakest of all 3.
Good map, actually.
I'll certainly fly blue.

Wild
17-03-2006, 01:12
Based on the proposed plane set I would fly Blue only.....no reason to be cannon fodder......

I'm tired of tilting at wind mills......

Zorin
17-03-2006, 07:51
Populated the harbor of Vadso as it had no details at all.

Vadso_supply base (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Vadso_harbor.jpg)

Vadso harbor (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Vadso_harbor_2.jpg)

TheDawg
17-03-2006, 14:29
Populated the harbor of Vadso as it had no details at all.

Vadso_supply base (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Vadso_harbor.jpg)

Vadso harbor (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Vadso_harbor_2.jpg)


my word..I have a coop that uses that same map!!
Did you fly with Soapy or someone from CWOS? Very interesting.
Now change the I-16 to the one that works and we'll fly red again :D

Zorin
17-03-2006, 15:08
First off, thanks, as I somehow feel that you gave me a compliment here. Somewhere between the lines ;)

And to refer to your question, I never ever flew with someone from CWOS. Don't even know what that means, to be honest. So I guess they are some sort of squad mostly affiliated with coop missions.

So I'd like to know what you meant with "the same map", cause the map is Murmansk.

TheDawg
17-03-2006, 16:18
heres the coop, enjoy

DL both, install.

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=51130

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=51132

A blast of a mission


Name Winter Fiasco
Short Winter attack Russian port\n\n\nShould be a cake run, no reported enemy aircraft in area.\nGood Weather predicted\n\nAprox 8 minutes to engagement.\n
Description 4 G-2's support 2 He-111's \nBombers torpedo port, anything, everything.\nG2's support.\n\nShould be a cake run, no reported enemy aircraft in area.\nGood Weather predicted\n

If you believe that... :D

Zorin
17-03-2006, 18:04
Saw it, played it and yes, it was quite a fiasco *g*

But the harbor can't compete with mine ;)

Btw, would you like to have the impression that the ships engines are up and runing? Aurora (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Aurora.jpg)


But I don't know how that'll effect the overall performance.

Firelok
19-03-2006, 02:03
Harbour and supply base are excellent m8 am looking forwards to dropping some bombs on those ship targets, very satisfying sinking ships and this map has lots of targets ships for both sides.
To return to your original post I think 'semi-historical' and 'what if' ideas are totally acceptable, indeed neccessary if we are to supply new maps of varied character. Especially as some famous WW2 combats are hard to model due to certain aircraft being missing and the potential substitutes too strong or inappropriate.

Zorin
19-03-2006, 02:20
Thanks for the kind words Firelok. Took me hours to place all those objects and make it all look convincing, especially placing every single fence...
And after that I had to relocate all airstrips, cause they weren't on completely flat ground, so the game always gave airstart to the planes. At that point I was really on the edge, I can tell you. ;)

So as for the "what ifs" I would gladly accept ideas from all of you what to set up. There is just too little deversity in the map cycle right now. Everytime I join I have to fight against late war fighters and that is not my business at all. There should be a story behind what is happening on the map, even on a dogfight server ;)

Daytrader
19-03-2006, 20:28
nice zorin now get a mic please dont be shy ;)

nettes zorin erhalten jetzt mic bitte sind nicht schüchtern

Zorin
19-03-2006, 20:34
I really hope my english is not as bad as your german Day *lol*

NS-IceFire
19-03-2006, 20:55
I have no clue what you guys are talking about.

What maneuvre exactly are you going to pull when a F4F shows up on your 109's high 6? Because frankly, there isn't any I can think of the F4F couldn't follow.
There isn't...the F4F can match or exceed the 109 in a dive and probably hold it in a turn too. The F4F is actually quite agile....just not Zero like agile.

Boemher
20-03-2006, 14:42
If the HurricaneI or II can take down the Bf 109E in capable hands then the F4F-3 will seem like a dream. Mark my words, when this map comes up on the play list the Blue side will quickly have any superiority complex knocked out of them.

I was under the assumption the E4 was going to be used, the E7 Z would be ok too but maybe in limited numbers or as a bonus.

Grey_Mouser
21-03-2006, 00:31
I think its worth a try.

I fly the Wildcat with great effectiveness against A6M2 Zeroes and I think the E model will not turn with it. I dont' like the idea of a "Z"...how bout an FM-2? Now, on the other hand, The Wildcat possesses superior sea level speed to the Zeke so there is an "out" if you keep your wits about you. I don't think the Wildcat will possess a single superior combat asset other than turning circle so if Blue flies smart...it will be very similar to those Hurricane vs 109 maps.

Zorin
21-03-2006, 02:45
All planes are limited on this map. So you should fly with foresight and plan your attacks and don't fight to the very end. Especially as you'll have to return to one airfield as a blue or try to crashland on a carrier, which shall prove to be somewhat difficult.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 10:47
I think its worth a try.

I fly the Wildcat with great effectiveness against A6M2 Zeroes and I think the E model will not turn with it. I dont' like the idea of a "Z"...how bout an FM-2? Now, on the other hand, The Wildcat possesses superior sea level speed to the Zeke so there is an "out" if you keep your wits about you. I don't think the Wildcat will possess a single superior combat asset other than turning circle so if Blue flies smart...it will be very similar to those Hurricane vs 109 maps.

A big advantage is that if you attack with speed in the Wildcat you can outmanuver and out roll the Bf 109 E. It will be like Fw 190 against La 5. You have no escape route it will be down to team play.

Brcn
21-03-2006, 12:12
The only thing that will fear me against Wildcats in a 109 will be the armament. There is always a better pilot than you, and there is always advantegous start positions in a combat so i don't think wildcats will own 109s. But the very inferior cannon (i am talking about F2 model here) against a tough wildcat, that is where the real disadvantage starts for a 109 pilot.

I think we will change the F2 model here with an F4 sooner or later, so i suggest starting with the F4.

I will put the map on the cycle after everything is decided.

Zorin
21-03-2006, 18:24
Well, I have not expected this whole map balancing thing to be so difficult...

Maybe we can start with the map and the F2 and see how things develop. If the Wildcat proves itself to be a flying tank we can change it to the F4, but than all other red planes will be completely lost.

Firelok
21-03-2006, 18:46
[QUOTE=<MM>Zorin]Well, I have not expected this whole map balancing thing to be so difficult...QUOTE]
You said it brother ;)

Zorin
23-03-2006, 15:52
Brcn, could you sort out the the properties problem? If so, when will we get the chance to test the map on UKD1? UKD2 doesn't make sense, since reds don't have any bombers now.

Brcn
23-03-2006, 21:12
No, unfortunately I didnt have time, and won't have till Sunday. I will upload the map on Sunday, as well as the other maps from other users. Sorry for the delay.

Zorin
23-03-2006, 21:29
Oh no, that is fine. You are the map master. :)

jimDiGriz
24-03-2006, 09:06
hm, why "semi-historical"? wildcats did take part in
Operation Torch and the North African landings. They also fought the Devoitines of the Vichi French earlier. It's entirely historical, F4Fs vs. 109s ..

Algorex
24-03-2006, 09:25
Well the mission is flown over murmansk, allied carriers didn't operated on the east side of north cape. The thread is a bit on the long side but it's always smart to read it before replying. ;)

Nice to see some new missions on the server, especially on the less used maps like murmansk.

Grey_Mouser
24-03-2006, 23:26
[QUOTE=<MM>Zorin]Well, I have not expected this whole map balancing thing to be so difficult...QUOTE]
You said it brother ;)

I have stated this opinion before and I'll reitterate it....there really are few if any truly balanced maps...it is important for them to be fun and there are tricks you can do to tip the odds one way or the other, even with the same planes.

Airstarts, position of aircraft/bases relative to target areas, AAA, extra bases further away or closer to etc will move the fighting higher, lower, closer, farther etc....big map vs small map...ground attack aircraft available etc...

Folks get real hung up on the plane sets and that is only a part of it. I don't think the Wildcat has any roll are manueverability advantage at high speed over a 109, but if the map is such that the 109's don't get to climb forever over the Wildcats and the fighting is kept low, it could be great fun.

A small map, with objectives close to blue base, heavy cloud cover and smaller amounts of AAA, bases relatively close together will insure that the fighting stays low which will favor the Wildcat! Be Sure :D

Zorin
25-03-2006, 03:26
Take a look at the map. The weather is set to good and the clouds are at 1500. Otherwise the ships would be in fog and paired with smoking ships that could ruin the fps.

Blue 109s have no time to climb high as the blue and red carriers are near eachother. Only the F2 or F4, we'll have to see that, could climb high.

The blue convoy has moved further west to that small island. So reds have to travel further to reach them, whichshould compansate the lack of a real bomber on the blue side.

Map (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Map.jpg)

Zorin
25-03-2006, 22:55
Are both maps Apenniens and Murmansk on circle now Brcn?

Brcn
26-03-2006, 13:41
I am working on them now. They ll be on tonight.

Zorin
30-03-2006, 21:45
I'm confused, is the map up now or not?

Brcn
30-03-2006, 22:29
I uploaded it, the map can be called with the names, Murmansk.mis, RMurmansk.mis, BMurmansk.mis.

Enjoy.

Gordano
01-04-2006, 00:50
Just played the Murmansk map on UKD2 and it looked great!

Zorin has put a lot of effort in to the detailling of the airfields etc.

The plane set seems good had a nice dogfight in a Bf110 vs two F4s the only downside was my being shot down!!

I can't wait to play it on UKD1 where I can take in all the eye candy!

Zorin
01-04-2006, 01:17
Thanks a lot Gordano, great to know that the long hours of work are so well recieved :)

It was good to see people having no problem taking off with the Bf 109 and Ju87 plus bombload from the carriers. Especially on UKD2 with the cockpit always on.

But it still has some flaws, it seems the airfield AA isn't setup correctly and the F2 will be changed to the F4. F4F-3 is really a tough bird, hit the top of the wing of in a dive with all six MGs(4x MG 17 and 2x 151/20) and it had nearly no effect on her ;)

And Brcn, the briefings are wrong, some japanese ones. I thought you had sorted that out. :confused:

Brcn
01-04-2006, 01:22
Uh? I thought I edited them. I will check them again.

Brcn
01-04-2006, 01:24
I just checked and the briefings seem ok. What is wrong with them?

Zorin
01-04-2006, 01:26
The server gave us wrong briefings, guess they were from the previous map, which was a japanese one. Maybe the server mixed it up, I have no idea...

Brcn
01-04-2006, 01:30
What was the previous map, and were the briefings you had the same as the previous map?

Zorin
01-04-2006, 01:32
Yes, the previous map was a new one too. On the Kyushu map, but I don't remember the name of the mission.

Gordano
01-04-2006, 20:00
I've just tried the Murmansk map on a full UKD1 and I'm sorry to say that it does need a modification.

We defiantely have to add more carriers for the reds.

The current single carrier can only handle 5 planes, so in effect the reds only have 5 comparative fighters to face the blues.

Also considering that I had chosen to ignore the brief and was in the process of bombing the carrier if I had succeeded it would have left the map in a bit of disarray.

The end result was hugely unbalanced teams as whoever did not want to fly the hurricane or I16 or an AI plane simply went blue where there was no issues securing a comparative fighter aircraft.

I actually chose to adandon the map as people were leaving the server due to the fact that there were only 7 reds out of 30 players.

I personally would recommend adding 2 more carriers and moving them a little further to the east of their current position. Another consideration would be adding the I16-24 with the cannons or possibly the SPB version to give an alternative to those who arne't on the carriers?

Firelok
01-04-2006, 20:49
Just to add to what Gordano's saying (we flew at same time) on UK1; With no loadout restrictions the Bf110 was an uber death machine with it's 108's etc, do blues really need this plane for bombing? 'cause it wasn't being used that way :rolleyes: On a positive note the Wildcat Bf109 matchup was a good acrobatic matchup :)

Brcn
01-04-2006, 21:41
I fixed the problem with the briefing, and I am willing to leave the fixing of the map to Zorin, as this is his map.

I can also recommend that if you do not want to add more carriers, u can add wildcats to land bases, or p40s, which are roughly at same performance according to my limited knowledge.

Zorin
02-04-2006, 00:37
First of all, thanks alot for your feedback, it is very mutch appreciated.

Ok, now lets face it one by one.

More carriers for red: Yes, would be possible, but only one or else the whole idea of this mission is lost(my intention was to have the F4F as a special plane, not the mainstay of the reds, this is a russian mission with british support), read the brief!!!, as this is the way it's ment to be.

Bombing the carriers: If you don't read the brief it's not my fault, it's easy as that. Both carriers have AA support so people should generally stay away from them anyway.

Moving red carriers further east: Why? The brief says it all, the carrier is there to protect the convoy, so why move it further away from it? Besides, tactically that wouldn't make much sense anyway and the blue convoy would start to attack them aswell.

Bf 110 issue: As always, who would have guess? ;) The map was designed for UKD2 and the 110 configured to be a E/F version. So if you want, we can remove it from the map for UKD1 but it has to stay as a destroyer on UKD2 simply to attack the red bombers. And besides, with no limitations, the red bombers carry 1xFAB1000 and 10xFAB50 which gives them the possibility to win the mission with one bombing run by 4 bombers. They even have a torpedo bomber as a bonus plane...

Bf109/F4F: What does good acrobatic matchup mean? Did the 109s get the F4F down or not? On UKD2 they were slaughtered by the F4Fs which scored several kills on one sortie.

Adding new planes to red side: Possible, but I'd say we should only have one of the two possibilitys, one more red carrier or new russian planes, but not both.

Bf109: Do we need the F4, yes or no? I felt that it was badly needed on UKD2. What is your opinion?

Brcn
02-04-2006, 00:45
Hi,

I made a mistake with the properties file, so the briefings were not showing.

Rarely a map is played the way it should be played or the way that the designer intended. This is a fact, so all maps should be designed considering this fact.

The 110 is needed if there is no 109F4, and I think we need the F4.

I don't think we should add another carrier or we should relocate it. You should think of adding planes, or giving an airstart base for Wildcats, near the carriers.

This is a brilliant map, well built, but if it has a bad effect on the team balance we either should correct it according to the needs of the server, or remove it.

Gordano
02-04-2006, 01:50
Bombing the carriers: If you don't read the brief it's not my fault, it's easy as that. Both carriers have AA support so people should generally stay away from them anyway.

As Brcn said people will not play the map as you intended it. I myself would expect a lot of people on the server to try and attack the carriers, ie not having read the briefing correctly or forgetting where the targets are or wanting quick action. The carriers would provide this, planes in the area and ships to sink. Also the aaa could possibly do with being increased a little, in my opinion it was not much of a deterent I made two passes on the carrier and was not hit once.

If the single carrier is sunk, not a hard task, the map will suddenly become hugely unbalanced. I can quite imagine some of the regulars plotting to sink the carrier for their own advantages. This was in the back of my mind when I set out to attack the carrier along with a curiosity as to how red would react to having no decent fighters left!

One of the problems we have with a public server is that not everyone is as cooperative as we would like them to be. If people can't fly the type of plane they want, they will often change sides totally ignoring the numbers or they will in the worse cases leave the server and go and fly some where else. It was with this in mind that I suggested increasing the carriers to allow for more F4Fs.

The unsual 109 vs F4F matchup is the unique point of this map. The only other slightly similar map is objective_Tirpitz and that has proved to be very popular. I think it would be a great shame to have a map where only 5 people can enjoy one of the main features.

I understand you want to limit the number of F4Fs. But on a full server, 18 vs 18, there will only be at the most 5 F4Fs in the air which is rather to limited in my opinion. I think two carriers (10 F4Fs) should be the minimum as this gives us F4Fs for just over half the team.

A lot of hard work has gone into this map and don't want it turning into a server emptier like some of the pacific maps we have in the rotation.

TheDawg
02-04-2006, 03:30
BF110 is really pounding.
I-16 should be later model
MORE carriers.

Great coop map, but poor play DF map
Lots of work went into it, interesting concept, and no slam to map maker as I know how much time it takes
BUT, real life battles do NOT equate into online game dogfight
best regards

Wild
02-04-2006, 03:34
First I think Zorin did a great job on this map!

I commented early on that I felt the plane set was unbalanced favoring blue (as usual).

Look a red side that has I16 type 18, Hurricane, & Wildcat, against 110's & F4's, is not a good match up.

When are the BF's gonna set a map with some sort of even handed match up?

This is NOT a personal attack against the BF server or admins. I think the server is one of the best & most well run available.

I do find myself flying in some quake servers more recently because I find some maps in the UK to be very blue biased.

Take away the mk 108's from the 109's & limit the amount of 190's & lets have a real historical dog fight server!

Brcn
02-04-2006, 10:39
I disagree the comment about maps being blue biased. Yes, there are some blu biased maps, but there are also some red biased maps, and the amounts of these are roughly the same. We do this on purpose, as this was the same historically, and we try to maintain a historic map cycle along with some what-if scenarios, which we also think them historically. But this is another arguement, not relevant to this topic.

Gordano's idea is quite good, enabling the %60 of the red team fly their best plane. This can be done by adding another carrier, which will not hugely unbalance the map.

As for limiting the numbers of the planes and loadouts, all maps are redisgned that way by me with the help of some BF members when we switched to Server Commander. But this had to be abandoned because it was causing many problems. The limit of planes and loaouts are valid in server 2, which seems to have less problems in this issue.

Algorex
02-04-2006, 12:13
This is one of the smallest missions on the server, distance-wise. In it the dogfight is located just south-east of the red convoy, mostly between landbased bfs and the F4Fs, this leaves the german carrierplanes especially the stuka low and slow to avoid the fighters and low and slow stukas are an easy prey to the red convoys light AAA, this leaves us with one of the unique features of the mission seriously handicapped. I propose that the german carriers are moved to open sea on the north-estern side flank of the convoy as if they where to seal the bay with the convoy inside.

Most urgent need is the second red carrier

AAA could also be revised

Zorin
02-04-2006, 15:41
I have change several things today.

1. Added a second red carrier.

2. Relocated the carriers and the red convoy. Previous positions marked with a "?". Making it a 5x4 instead of 3x3 map.

3. Changed the blue carrier escort from two S-boats and one M-boat to two M-boats and one Flakkreuzer.

4. Changed the Flakkreuzer securing the german convoy to a freighter.

5. Increased range of german airfield AA/A.

New map (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Map2.jpg)

Zorin
02-04-2006, 16:09
I'm somewhat stupid...Totally forgot the wintersun during the winter at the North Cape.

Wintersun (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/wintersun.jpg)

Daytrader
02-04-2006, 16:26
i like the map alot even thou it takes me 5 times to take off from a carrier with bomb :p

Zorin
02-04-2006, 19:03
Just tried it again Day, bombs and 75% fuel and it worked like a charm. But you don't want to bother with that if we return to the external settings.

Please comment on the changes, especially the relocating of carriers and the convoy.

TheDawg
03-04-2006, 14:09
I disagree the comment about maps being blue biased. .

When do we get the VYa-23? :D

Zorin
03-04-2006, 18:54
I send a new version of the basic map to Brcn for testing.

Also changed the F-2 to the F-4 and the I-15type18 to the type 24.

Brcn
04-04-2006, 11:44
The new version is uploaded.

Zorin
06-04-2006, 04:18
Again some changes, I'm so sorry to give you a hard time Brcn, not my intention really.

1. As on request the DB-3M is changed to a A-20. It carries 2x500lbs and the MK13 torpedo, but there will be only 15 available. So treat her well.

2. Broke up the german convoy a bit to reduce the concentration of light and heavy AA fire. RoF doesn't effect the AA guns so that is the only way to go. Experience is rookie for the Tirpitz and one of the finish ships, the three others are set to normal.

I'll rewrite the briefings for both sides to fit with the changes.

Brcn
06-04-2006, 07:00
It becomes very laggy over blue ships, perhaps you should think about decreasing the amount of AAA.

Zorin
06-04-2006, 14:57
I brought this up during the game yesterday. Maybe disabling the Tirpitz and adding one more M boat would do the job. So, I'd set it's experience to veteran, as the rest all fire at you and don't hit at all ;)

Zorin
06-04-2006, 15:16
Changed briefings:

Guten Morgen Männer!

Our reconnaisance planes have located the british/russian convoy our u-boats attacked last night lying in the entrance of the Varangerfjord(grid AM 23). It seems the russian cruiser Aurora has suffered badly from our u-boat attacks and can’t reach Murmansk harbor on its own. Therefore we have the ultimate chance to cut russian supplies with a forced attack by our carrier based Ju87 dive bombers.
But be aware, one of our Fw200s has picked up radio signals from two british carriers coming in to assist the convoy, so stay in groups and request fighter cover.

At the same time, our landbased Bf 110 squadron should secure the airspace around our own convoy, which is forming up in grid AJ 23, lead by the battlecruiser Tirpitz. The Russians will probably seize the chance to start a bombing raid from their base in grid AL 22.

Viel Erfolg Männer!

Loadout restrictions for UKD2: You are not allowed to use MK108, MG 151/20 gondolas or any combination of them on the Bf 110. Use of the Sc1000 bomb on the Ju87 is forbidden aswell.


Good morning comrads!

German u-boats attacked our supply convoy lead by the glorious cruiser Aurora last night and inflicted damage to her propulsion system, she barely made it to grid AM 23, when the propshaft of her mainpropeller broke. The whole convoy stopped and needs immediate aircover. Two british carriers, one of them the HMS Illustrious, are already coming in to assist, but we should send our own fighters aswell.
As the germans will be busy trying to unsuccessfully attack our ships, we’ll have plenty of time to send our own bombers to sink their cruiser convoy, which now can’t leave the Varangerfjord and is stuck in grid AJ 23.

As part of our lend-lease contract with the american government, we have been given 15 A20C attack bombers, but most of the equipment for them is still on our cargo ships trapped in AM 23. Nonetheless, our exemplary floatplane squadron was able to fly out some torpedos and 500lbs bombs, which should be enough to sent the german convoy down to a wet grave.

Dismiss!

Loadout restrictions for UKD2: All loadouts beside the 2x500lbs and 1xMk13 torpedo on the A20G are forbidden.

Daytrader
06-04-2006, 16:50
sounds great now m8

RAF_WhiteEagle
06-04-2006, 18:59
Bf109/F4F: What does good acrobatic matchup mean? Did the 109s get the F4F down or not? On UKD2 they were slaughtered by the F4Fs which scored several kills on one sortie.

Adding new planes to red side: Possible, but I'd say we should only have one of the two possibilitys, one more red carrier or new russian planes, but not both.

Bf109: Do we need the F4, yes or no? I felt that it was badly needed on UKD2. What is your opinion?

I dont remember fights 109 vs F4F in RL. I prefer historical maps not crap plane sets like on AFJ or 334th.
Thanks to almost RL maps UKD servers are popular.
Second thing is that 4 big ships are firing and it makes to much lag.

Zorin
06-04-2006, 19:10
It's the Martlet, british F4F, which fought against german troops over the north sea, so it's not too far fetched to have them fight against 109s.

And remember the thread title, semi-historical, so why do you bring this up anyway?

There is also only ONE big ship firing(Tirpitz), which will be disable anyway.

Yellow 2
07-04-2006, 09:10
I believe that 20 Martlets took part in the strike on the Tirpitz on the 3rd of April 1944. During a series of operations off the Norwegian coast Lt. B Ritchie shot down an Fw190 when flying a Hellcat, the only occasion on which the two types fought. It is not unreasonable to assume, for the purposes of the map, that Martlets and Hellcats could have engaged both 109s and 190s.

Cheers :)

stanford
07-04-2006, 15:08
I flew this last night and I liked it. Although, I was flying an F4 - It DOMINATES the opposition. I was pretty much untouchable. This is a bit of a crap post as I don't have any suggestions, but perhaps it was too easy with the F4.

Zorin
07-04-2006, 18:06
Now lets get this down for once and for all. I'm not willing to tweak this map to death and drive Brcn nuts because he has to change it all every week.

1. Bf 109 F-4, yes or no? The F4F flys on an equal base(speed & turn) with the E7/Z, BUT it takes a lot more punishment(the MGs do nothing to a F4F) and the new 0.50cals have greatly improved in power.

2. As people seem to dislike flying AI bombers, what plane do you want as a bonus for the red side instead of the DB-3T? Remember, it's winter 1941/42.

Scrappy_D
07-04-2006, 18:28
Some info on the Martlett ... nothing to do with the map though (Sorry Zorin, not tryin to hijack the thread ... It could be useful for map makers ;))

Taken from this webpage: http://www.warbirdalley.com/f4f.htm


History: In 1936 the US Navy evaluated a number of designs which were competing to be the Navy's new carrier-based fighter. Grumman built a design which, after several re-designations and airframe modifications, won the contract and eventually became the F4F Wildcat. The prototype, the XF4F-2, first flew on 2 September 1937. The prototype of an improved version, the XF4F-3, was renamed the F4F and was ordered by the Navy in August of 1939. The first five aircraft off the assembly line were sent to Canada, with the next 90 (designated "Martlet Mk I" going to the 804 Squadron of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm where, in December 1940, two Martlets made history by becoming the first American-made aircraft to down a German plane in WWII.

The first US Navy F4F-3 was flown on 20 August 1940, powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-1830 engine with 1,200 horsepower. The subsequent F4F-4, incorporating several improvements including folding wings, six guns and self-sealing fuel tanks, was delivered in November 1941. It was then that the name "Wildcat" was first given to the F4F. As war raged around the world, the Wildcat's reputation and utilization grew immensely. It flew with the US Navy and US Marines in all of the major Pacific battles, and in North Africa with the Navy.

In mid 1942, Grumman realized that it needed to concentrate on the production of its new F6F Hellcat fighter, and so it contracted with the General Motors Company to build the Wildcat under the designation FM-1. The first FM-1 flew on 31 August 1942, and over 1,150 of them were produced, hundreds of which went to the Fleet Air Arm as the "Martlet Mk V." General Motors next developed an improved version, called the FM-2 ("Wildcat Mk VI" in the Fleet Air Arm), which was powered by a Wright R-1820 engine with 1,350 horsepower. It featured a taller vertical tail than the FM-1. Over 4,700 FM-2s were built before the Wildcat was eclipsed by the more capable fighters which appeared later in the war.

Nicknames: Peanut Special (British nickname)

Specifications (F4F):
Engine: 1200hp Pratt & Whitney R-1830-36 Twin Wasp, 14-cylinder radial piston engine
Weight: Empty 5760 lbs, Maximum Takeoff 7950 lbs.
Wing Span: 38ft. 0 in.
Length: 28ft. 9in.
Height: 9ft. 2.5in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 20,000ft: 318mph
Cruising Speed: 155mph
Service Ceiling: 39,500ft
Initial Climb Rate: 1950 feet/min.
Range: 770 miles
Armament:
Six 12.7-mm (0.50 in) Browning machine guns (FM-2 had four guns);
Two 100-lb bombs (FM-2 could carry two 250-lb bombs).

Number Built: 7,885 (All production variants)

Number Still Airworthy: ~18

Zorin
08-04-2006, 09:48
BUMP

Guys, it's all ready, I only need the red bonus plane, so give me some input here.

Zorin
08-04-2006, 13:24
Decided to add a fighter as red bonus: P-39 D-2 "Airacobra", easy to explain why it's up there in the north, 25 exemplars arrived two month earlier at Murmansk via convoy for evaluation tests.
So it replaces the I-15s, as it is a valuable fighter and bomber, 500lbs is enough to sink a tanker/freighter if I recall that correctly.

Files are underway to Brcn. (I have got round to set up the properties file correctly, so you don't have to bother with that anymore Brcn ;))

Zorin
12-04-2006, 02:59
Brcn, you will inform us as soon as you uploaded the new files, right?

Brcn
12-04-2006, 09:44
Oops, the new version is uploaded. Sorry for the delay.

Zorin
20-04-2006, 21:43
I played the mission quite a lot lately and ther eis a problem. The Ju87 stands no chance against the I-15. Has anyone an objection to remove it from the map? I have seen it really often that 75% of the red side fly I-15 and that is definitly not the way I wanted it to be.

Oh, and who would like to have a mission on the Kurland map with the Do335 for the blue side? It equals the Mosquito for its timeperiod, faster than the fighters and way better armed, and would be not the mainstay of the blue forces, but still an interesting feature.

LeVola
21-04-2006, 20:00
me, me, me :)

Zorin
22-04-2006, 22:21
Thanks LeVola for your, short but clear, answer which I take is a pro for a Do335 map.

BUT, if I don't get proper feedback from the core members here, whoms opinions I deeply appreciate, I'd have to reconsider the mapmaking thing. Cause, c'mon, it can't be to hard to give a yes or no for removing the I-15 or not. Takes like 25 sec max to post that which is, lets face it, a laugh against x hours of mapbuilding.

Daytrader
22-04-2006, 23:17
well im to new really to give a opinion as i dont really no what planes pro's and con's are but i like your other map alot so whatever you do is good for me ;)

Algorex
23-04-2006, 08:57
daytrader likes everything as long as there's a b25j for him.

If my memory services me correctly there was a do335 western front map on the way, based on the new NW europe map, not sure what happened to that one.

On the murmask map a viable solution to the stuka problem could be an airstart or radical new placement for the german carriers , with them near the coast line they are just fancy airfields, with em on the open sea on the other side of the red fleet they would be a threat with a chance of suprise.

Zorin
01-05-2006, 02:00
Thanks for the feedback Algorex, but you have to remember, people will always know where the carriers are based so reds will be lurking around the route of the Ju87s which, if coming from the open sea, have no protection at all on their way. Now, they have at least the chance to sneak through underneath the fights going on above them.

Guess I'll just remove the I-15s and send the changed files to Brcn as there seams to be no interest in giving feedback anyway...


New mission, Pe-2 bomber mission, on Kurland map.

Blue airfield defense (one of three batteries, all with a different setup)
Flakbattery (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Flakbatterie.jpg)

unfinished V1 factory and station of dispatch:
V1 (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/V1_factory.jpg)

Firelok
01-05-2006, 02:25
Lots of great fun on Murmansk tonight with a relatively full server, lots of Ju87 flown and A20s and some good fights between the 109s and wildcats/hurris, even extended it for half an hour.
At the end I asked whether folks enjoyed it and got an almost universal yes,(except one guy who wanted ant-tank gunpods on his Bf110 :rolleyes: )

Zorin
01-05-2006, 02:39
Great news, thanks a lot for the report Firelok :)

Hm, maybe I allow the I-15 to stay than, as for now ;)

As it seams UKD won't update to 4.05 I have to build the missions with old objects right? Thank god I haven't updated Bergen yet... shame, all those new AAA guns :(

Firelok
01-05-2006, 15:22
It's a question of when rather than won't zorin. :)
*and oooh new AAA? ground objects drool :p

Zorin
04-06-2006, 22:07
Notification

I've updated the Murmansk mission. The I-16 has been replaced by the Yak-1 and the russian convoy has been reorganized.

Zorin
05-06-2006, 01:44
Petsamo & Kirkenes raid (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour/Battlehonour_crewlists/Petsamo_Kirkenes_1941.html)

Read this and thank me on your knees for the planes red has in my representation of the scenario ;)

Firelok
06-06-2006, 01:25
Rocketless Yak's a good change, Stukas are in trouble without escort anyway but they might last a little longer.
For my part I would like you to increase the number of A20s if possible. There are a lot of targets and a few more to cover accidents might be OK.

Zorin
06-06-2006, 01:39
20 A20s ok?

Will have to change that in the brief and restricted the rockets on the Yak, forgot that..stupid me. I fear that JtD is going to craft a Zorin Voodoo doll for having him change the maps so often ;)

Zorin
06-06-2006, 02:27
JtD can you please make these changes for Murmansk. Set the amount of A20s to 20 and add the limitation 6rs82 for the Yak.

Zorin
14-08-2006, 16:45
Sorry to bump this old thread, but I'm curious, who'd like to see a Ki61 Hei as a He100 substitute on the Murmansk map?

Zorin
14-08-2006, 19:22
To help get you in the mood for it:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2286/screen19on0.jpg

Zorin
15-08-2006, 02:10
So what do you think of it?

Algorex
15-08-2006, 12:29
Performance wise it could be included as it's basicly worse that the g2 and any of the yaks. The thing you have to aske yourself is whether or not you want to see japanise ki-61s flying around in northern europe, because you'll probably be the only one with the mock-up skin, rest of them will fly with the purple default.

Zorin
15-08-2006, 13:04
There is no G2 on the map anyway ;)

And if they have correct german markings on them I'm pretty mutch pleased already. I see so many odd skins around I really don't bother if the Ki would be purple or pink with green dots ;) Only correct markings. That is all I ask for.

Gordano
15-08-2006, 13:37
you'll probably be the only one with the mock-up skin, rest of them will fly with the purple default.

Just a thought,

Maybe providing some links to download the custom skin in the briefings may encourage a few others to get into the spirit of things?

Firelok
15-08-2006, 20:34
The 'Martlett's vs F4' combats here are already quite close.
The 109F4 is faster and has better guns, the Martlett a better turner.
Will the addition of the Ki a very manouverable plane alter the balance of this in favour of blues a lot, and consequently create team balance problems?
If it does get included as an additional plane should Reds get an additional plane too ? Like the i16?
P.S. It does look great :)

Zorin
15-08-2006, 20:56
I wouldn't mind to trade in the 109E for the He100. Armament and speed are pretty mutch equal.

Firelok
17-08-2006, 10:38
I wouldn't mind to trade in the 109E for the He100. Armament and speed are pretty mutch equal.
Twice the bombload for the Ki-61 over the 109E, might make the objective easier for blues. I don't think blue have won this yet, least not whilst I've been there. Won for red once though attacking Tirpitz with Su2's :)

Zorin
17-08-2006, 10:49
Should we give it a try? Easiest would be if you change it in the ini and mis file Fire. And a little something in the brief that says it is the He100T, ok?

Algorex
17-08-2006, 11:11
Hope this means that the "he-100" is a carrier only A/C.
If it is, i'm sure we don't have to worry about any bombload, static carriers take care of those jabos.

Zorin
17-08-2006, 11:54
Correct Algore. As far as my trials show you can't take off with any bombload from a static carrier with the Ki61.


And Fire, it is important you put in the Ki61 Hei 1944, cause that is the one with the cannons.

Firelok
17-08-2006, 12:06
Carrier launched Ki-64 (1944) as well as Bf109E OK.
Right I've added this plane and updated the brief.
Also I've removed a lot of the unneccesary restrictions on plane numbers here, keeping the essential weapon restrictions in place. Only the A20 and the Ju87 are in limited numbers.
This should make the scenario more accessible and prevent less in-experienced players being kicked unneccessarily.

For my part, some strong thought needs to be given to another aircraft (for reds) to balance this new aircraft for blues. The martletts are fighting a whole new aircraft now with 2x20mm cannons.

Zorin
17-08-2006, 14:53
Seems our good old JtD needs a pair of new glasses ;)

Ki 61 (http://www.aviaistorija.puslapiai.lt/kari1/Kawasaki%20Ki-61.jpg)

Ki 61 (http://digilander.libero.it/dreamswings/ImmaginiModelGallery/KI61Ichi%2002%20P650.jpg)

He 100 (http://d94132.u23.simplenet.com/images/He%20100%2074ws/He100-d1-1.JPG)

"Influenced by the design of the Messerschmitt Me 109 and Heinkel He 100, the Ki-61 was the only Japanese fighter powered by a liquid-cooled engine. The engine was a development of the Daimler-Benz DB 601, and early versions were armed with German MG 151 machine guns."

"The Ki-61 was clearly influenced by the He 100.

Like the D's(He100D) it lost the surface cooling system (although an early prototype may have included it), but is otherwise largely similar in design except for changes to the wing and vertical stabilizer. Since the Ki-61 was supposed to be lighter and offer better range than the Ki-60, the design had a longer and more tapered wing for better altitude performance."

As the japanese intended it to be a fighter bomber the wings were changed to allow to fit the bomb racks.

And I wanted the Ki 61 to replace the Bf 1097Z, not having both available.

Regarding a new red plane, what about adding a LaGG-3 Series 4?

Firelok
17-08-2006, 15:43
Removing this is just as easy as adding it, this map already has a number of unusual stand-ins (including the basic premise of kreigsmarine carriers)
My concerns are will it profoundly effect a working map or not, only testing will tell.

Zorin
17-08-2006, 16:04
Stop being so pissy JtD, doesn't suit you well.

I'm trying to spice things up instead of bringing up the same old storys and all you can do is bash my ideas. Ever heard of constructive critisism??

And believe it or not, I never said the Ki61 is a copy of the He100. Due to different design philosophies they do differ in some parts, as I said before, but it is still the best stand-in you will find in the game. And that the Ki is one ton heavier is easily explained. It has a great wingspan and is a 44 plane with extra armor and such added. The data of the He100 is from 1939 or early 1940.


The martletts are fighting a whole new aircraft now with 2x20mm cannons.

The Bf 1097Z had two 20mm aswell.

Algorex
17-08-2006, 16:37
but mg151/20 is a bit more dangerous cannon than the mg-ff/m. I do agree with jtd in that we now have a good norrkap skenario, petsamo raid. A good use for this map in the pacific could be Battle of the Aleutian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Aleutian_Islands).

Zorin
17-08-2006, 16:51
But in game it is a 20 mm Ho-5 cannon, itself a scaled up Browning M2. No MG151/20.

Zorin
17-08-2006, 17:27
We just played the map from start to finish and it was well recieved, besides the regular moaners, who simply don't get the idea of the map. :)

Algorex
17-08-2006, 17:38
Whether the cannon is mg151/20 or a ho-5, both are vastly superiour to the mg-ff in terms of accuracy, ballistics and ammo load. Not to mention the 12.7s on the nose of a ki-61.

On the planeset as a whole, blues now have bf-109E7s, F4s and bf-110e/fs against red F4Fs handicapped by carrier (believe me it's a handicap), hurri IIb FMs, i-16s and early yaks. Do we really need to fiddle around with this map, which is sadly quite unpopular amongst the semi-regular-not-on-the-forums-but-somehow-always-on-the-server crowd.

Usually i end up flying red in a a-20 doing commando raids against the ships and when they run out it's usually yak with bombs and su-2. Even a half-a## blue team can maintain a almost complete air superiority over both targets.

Zorin
17-08-2006, 17:55
Ok, ok. Why not give reds their LaGG and replace the landbased F4 with a Bf 109 7/B.
Would that even out things? That way reds would have the fastest and best armed figter on the map, which seems to be the only goal here. Superior reds..

Btw, the Hurri FM is better armed than a La5, interestingly enough nobody complained about that..wonder why that is...

Algorex
17-08-2006, 18:14
No the point is that this 5 page thread has yet to produce a well balanced and intresting map. It started as a great idea but it didn't quite work out, can we just leave it at that and move on? The last 4 pages are all about small changes, maybe it need a radical remake, like kyushu?

Zorin
17-08-2006, 18:44
Lots of great fun on Murmansk tonight with a relatively full server, lots of Ju87 flown and A20s and some good fights between the 109s and wildcats/hurris, even extended it for half an hour.
At the end I asked whether folks enjoyed it and got an almost universal yes,(except one guy who wanted ant-tank gunpods on his Bf110 :rolleyes: )

Now I'm really curious, how come the "semi-regular-not-on-the-forums-but-somehow-always-on-the-server crowd" doesn't like it and Fire got such a response?

You simply have to understand that I won't let this map go down the drain. I spent TOO MANY hours building it for it now being buried.

Firelok
17-08-2006, 19:19
I personally do think this is a good scenario and it works well with a good crowd on, whether altering something that works already (as it does with F4 and Emils) is such a good idea is different. I think it's OK to try out changes (i.e. adding the Ki) but if this makes people unhappy then returning to the working scenario isn't a bad thing. Reviewing a lot of the post in this thread shows it's a project that's attracted a lot of enthusiasm on the whole. Reviewing also some of the outright blunders I've made over planesets should make you feel better about experimenting and then accepting that a new idea may not work in the long-run.
So in a nutshell I'm saying that Murmansk with 109s does work.

Zorin
26-08-2006, 05:19
http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Map3.jpg

Some changes I'd like to test.

1. One blue carrier only. Covering the blue fleet. Bf 109 7/B.

2. Changed targets for reds. Smaller blue fleet and Vadso harbour.

3. Changed planeset.

Blue

Bf 109 7/B
Bf 109 F2/F4
Bf 110 D
He 100T*
Ju 87 D3

Red

P400/D1
P40E
Hurri FM
Sea Hurricane
F4F3
A20G (later to be changed to A20C)

*Need opinions

Yellow 2
26-08-2006, 11:15
I like this map whether or not it is felt that Red is out gunned.

I've just been looking at the chapter on the air war in the far north in Black Cross Red Star volume 2 which covers the period January to June 1942.

The point is made that in this sector many of the aircraft were lend lease aircraft as the main port of entry was Murmansk. Among the aircraft mentioned are Hurricanes, Tomahawks, P40Es and toward the end of that period the Airacobra. The Russian bomber mentioned is the PE2. Could the A20 be replaced for UKD2?

I don't really like the principle of ' stand in aircraft ' so introducing a Japanese look alike to represent the He100 doesn't appeal to me. Do blue need another fighter? Is there scope to introduce the Ju88 for Blue? I dont mind change to the plane set but please don't introduce aircraft that could not possibly be there as no matter what they are supposed to be if your aircraft recognition is up to scratch then it will be obvious and in my view detract from the good points of the map.

Cheers :)

Zorin
26-08-2006, 16:26
I added the Pe2 and removed the He100. The A20G will be a pure torpedo bomber since the Pe2 provides enough bombing power, so there is no need for any other laoudout on the A20G. We'll have to see if the A20C will have a torp or not.

Yellow 2
26-08-2006, 18:15
Thanks Zorin people seem to like flying the PE2 so it should be popular.

Zorin
08-09-2006, 10:09
New plane set:

Blue

Bf 109 7/B
Bf 109 F2
Bf 109 F4
Bf 110 D
Ju 87 D3

Red

P400
P40E
Tomahawk IIb
LaGG3series4
Sea Hurricane
F4F3
A20G (later to be changed to A20C)
Pe2series1

Zorin
08-09-2006, 21:27
Ian Boys just posted at simHQ that the A20C has a torpedo :)

Xiola
09-09-2006, 17:55
I like this map now, the F4F's are in fact really effective vs the 109's, surprisingly.

The 50's are incredibly powerful.

I dont fly the blue side much, but the red is fun.

Firelok
12-09-2006, 21:52
New version uploaded to server name: Vadso
Sorry about the delay

Firelok
13-09-2006, 12:41
Found a problem with this new version the Blues's targets are visible to the targets command, I know there's a line there in the .ini file but the in-game command doesn't show any targets. :confused:
Also I'm going to alter the brief for neatness and uniformity(in-line with the style of the other briefs).it says now...

The REDS attack must destroy:-
100% of the GERMAN FLEET in (GRID AJ 23)

It will say...
The REDS attack must destroy:-
100% of the German Fleet in (AJ 23)
(this all fits on one line and is neater.)


Just a thought, why still restrict the A20G to torpedos only, The Pe2's max bombload is 2x500kgs+2x250kgs,The A20G's maximum is 2x1000lbs+2x500lbs
1000lbs is about 450kgs so these loadouts are equivalent. This change would stop a lot of inexperienced players being kicked and would be neater too.

Zorin
13-09-2006, 13:13
I already send you a new ini file and if we don't restirct the A20G I don't see why we need the Pe2. Especially since it will be replaced by the A20C soon.

Firelok
13-09-2006, 14:02
new .ini loaded, Vadso has now replaced Murmansk in the main map sequence BTW.

Algorex
26-11-2006, 00:01
The new harbour target is in my opinion way too heavily guarded for a target that far away, there's two fighter bases in less than a grid away, quite alot AAA with two or three 25mms and two live ships and it has tough objectives like submarines in semi-protected positions.

Zorin
26-11-2006, 00:47
I can't edit it myself as I'm on 4.04 right now, but Firelok sure can silence the ships and one 20mm AA gun.

Firelok
26-11-2006, 01:36
I can't edit it myself as I'm on 4.04 right now, but Firelok sure can silence the ships and one 20mm AA gun.
What about the Pe3bis light bomber? It's soviet naval plane without an enormous bombload (unlike the Pe2) might work well.
Sorry I've noticed that the Pe2 is on this map,(the last time I flew here this week the version was Objective_Murmansk due to the stats being cleaned out at the time this mucked things up.)
Harbour ships are sleeping and also any other Cargo ships I've found elsewhere on both fleets.(All AAA comes from Military ships) I've tweaked the AAA near the harbour for less lethal versions (the 37mm German Flak is real nasty like Bofors 40mm really) so now there is 2x 20mm Flak 30s and a Flak 88. Before there was 2x20mm Flak38 and a 37mm. Anyway the combined fire of all the UBoots and ships was the problem really. I'd still not want to hang around near this target as the nearby Airfield AAA can get you if you turn the wrong way.

Whilst I was doing this I decided to take a survey of what ships are around and I'm a little surprised to say the least.
USSR ships (Blues target)
8 Cargo ships
2 Destroyers
1 Cruiser
1 Boat
1 Flying Boat.

German Ships (Reds targets the fleet and the harbour)
8 Cargo Ships
4 Subs
2 M Boats
1 Destroyer
1 AAA Cruiser
1 Cruiser
1 Battleship
plus some planes and trucks at the harbour.

Erm, this seems a little dis-proportioned to me.Even with Reds torpedo A20 and the Pe2 (2x500kg,2x250kg.)

Zorin
26-11-2006, 10:04
Is the harbor set to 100%? If that is so, that's wrong. And blues only have the Ju87 and 110, which both don't carry that much of a load, especially thinking in terms of anti shipping. A 1000kg bomb kills one ships just like a 500kg(there are no carriers or battleships as targets for blues), you only slow yourself down with it. But reds have two real bombers. And the Pe3bis was only build in small numbers, around 15, so I don't want to have it on this map. Maybe the regular Pe3, after we changed to the A20C.

Firelok
26-11-2006, 18:58
Currently it's 100% of the fleet and 70% of the harbour. The torpedo A20 C and the Pe2 should be good I think. Or alternatively an unrestricted A20 C and the Pe3 (which only has 2x100kg bombs.)

One of the best things about this map's planeset is the active Ju87 sorties it makes such a change to see a lot of these guys flying.

Zorin
13-02-2007, 19:38
New plane set:

Blue

Bf 109 7/B
Bf 109 F2
Bf 110 D
Ju 87 D3

Red

P400
P40E
Tomahawk IIb
LaGG3series4
A20C (only limit the 1000kg)
Pe2series1

No northern target for reds and no carriers.