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jimDiGriz
02-03-2006, 18:38
I've been thinking for quite a while now how to make a balanced jets/rockets vs. props map, for UKDed1 and 2, and I think I got it right now:
Ive been making this me163 vs. Allied fighters/bombers online dogfight map, and I think its pretty much ok now - balanced and all.

It can be found here:

http://www.savefile.com/files/9221280

Features:
-A secret german heavy water processing plant, protected by 88s, 20mm and a me163 strip.
-An allied base high in the mountains directly above (p38, spit 25lbs, p51, Tempest, p47, mosquito, b-25, b-17, b-24)

Allied fighters are airstarted 100m above the base, and not far from a cloud - this gives flak protection plus immediate hiding place from base-hugging me163s. They are also with 2000m height advantage over the me163 below (assuming takeoff at the same time).
Time is 19:30, weather is Poor - this makes the props virtually invisible, while the me163 glow and leave long smoke trails.
I think its quite pretty too - very atmospheric looking, at the most common flight headings for blue and red :)

Ive made it a bit harder on the heavies, by putting 12x88s next to the plant + some wiblerwinds - I wanted fighter-bombers to be able to stay around the target if fast and turning, but have slower a/c buy it; the reason being that it would only take 4-5 accurate heavy bomber sorties to destroy the plant.

I was unsure if I should leave the destroy ground settings at 50% or 75% - this would need tweaking depending on how succesfull the me163 are at bomber interception.

What do you say?

Scrappy_D
02-03-2006, 21:43
I guess the only thing is to try it and see what feed back is generated .... ?

jimDiGriz
02-03-2006, 21:48
Right, I'll consider this a "go" for making the .ini and .properties files :)

NS-IceFire
02-03-2006, 23:19
Sounds very interesting indeed! I'd be willing to give it a go. It will be a challenge to get the Me-163. I've only shot one down online once....the Me-163 pilot did a break turn and me in a Mustang managed to score some hits on the engine...there was fire and explosions and it was very nice indeed :)

jimDiGriz
03-03-2006, 14:08
update: been flying some test bomber and me163 runs. Still thought b-17 had a too easy time with the low level runs so I increased flak around target by adding 7 more Wirbelwinds, and taking out some of the 88s; I would put even more flak if I knew what consitutes feasable online flak ammount (so that there's not too much lag for the low end comps). Also, I put 4 V1s firing at the mountain, to create some diversion for the props - the V1s trajectories passing directly over the target. Updated the link in the original post (minus the V1s, that I did latter) and sent the updated version, flak, v1s and all, to il2maps@il2hq.com.
Also - a me163 at full throttle and 25% fuel runs out of fuel exactly over the allied base. So, it might be a good idea to limit the me163s fuel loads to 50% max, and force them to fight like real me163s (zoom and glide)

brick
03-03-2006, 14:14
I'd refrain from putting too many wirlbelwinds. I think they will induce too much lag. Just double the number of 88-s and see what happens

jimDiGriz
03-03-2006, 14:23
tried 32x 88s, 16 at the ingress and 16 at the egress points. None scored any hits on a b-17 flying at 450km/h, 100m alt :(. I could try 64 88s, but Im unsure where lag comes from (I get none on my comp, regardles of flak ammount). If its from the server "operating" the flak AI, than this would be a bad approach. If its the total rate of fire (ammount of shells in the air at any one point), than 64-128 88s would be a way to go, perhaps..(?)

Brcn
04-03-2006, 07:53
88s are no good for planes flying at low altitude. Try adding a few 20 mms.

NS-IceFire
04-03-2006, 16:59
tried 32x 88s, 16 at the ingress and 16 at the egress points. None scored any hits on a b-17 flying at 450km/h, 100m alt :(. I could try 64 88s, but Im unsure where lag comes from (I get none on my comp, regardles of flak ammount). If its from the server "operating" the flak AI, than this would be a bad approach. If its the total rate of fire (ammount of shells in the air at any one point), than 64-128 88s would be a way to go, perhaps..(?)
Are you saying 64 to 128 88mm flak batteries? WOA man...that will bring the server crashing down around all of us. I would use no more than 20 pieces of flak total for the entire map. 88mm isn't very effective at low altitudes...thats what light flak is for.

Firelok
05-03-2006, 02:11
Is'nt the heavy flak a side issue, the bombers big enemy is the Me163's surely 'cause they blow B17 to pieces with ease.

jimDiGriz
05-03-2006, 10:56
It's a short flight - from take off to bombing, and its all downhill, so it really depends on the individual me163 pilots.
Anyway - here's the last version incorporating all the feedback so far.
It has 20 pieces of AAA:
10x 20mm FLAK
4x 88mm FLAK
4x Bofors AAA
2x .50 Brownings AAA

http://www.savefile.com/files/6308220

NS-IceFire
05-03-2006, 14:30
Much more reasonable...that'll do I think.

Firelok: Flak is not a side issue when dealing with multiplayer maps as flak incurs a heavy hit on the server and network resources. As for the Me-163...we'll see how that goes. This is certainly a test and I'm interested to see what happens.

jimDiGriz
05-03-2006, 16:08
Destroy ground percentage, and me163 allowed fuel loads are all in the "tweak to acheive further balance" category.
I thought FLAK was also there but since 7 Wirbelwinds failed to scratch my b-17 on the first pass I guess thats not the way to go (and it would be spread between different targets online anyway, rather than focused on one bomber)

When it comes to winning this map both sides have advantages, and I have a nagging feeling that the me163s might actually be at the slightly disadvantaged side.

Allied advantages:
- Fighters - hard to see and intercept in the map weather, high sorties rate due to airstart, 2000m height advantage over target area, high speed over target area for fighter-bombers (i.e. not interceptable untill they reach the target)
- enemy me163s clearly visible when under power (long smoke trails, glow)
- Bombers - small target size - several accurate bomb stick will destroy it.
- Both can hide in a cloud and pick up speed immediately after take off.
-(aditional possiblity: If me163s are limited to 25% fuel then they can not reach the alied base)

Axis advantages:
- me 163s can see big bombers and maybe intercep (that depends on skill)
- me 163 can catch props on the climb back to the mountain airbase (if they can follow them after the tracer points them out)
- me 163 are invisible in the glide.
- 10x 20mm FLAK on the target area - this, I hope, means no hanging arround for the fighter bombers (until they kill the flak). BUT low flying B-17s and b-25s do get through without much damage in the first low-level pass which is what I wanted to prevent.
(additional possiblity: increase the target size so that more sorties are needed to destroy it, i.e take out one of the allied advantages)

So, if balance is needed one can tweak the target area (size), the destroy ground percentage, and the me163 fuel load (if needed).

Ps. Tried some Nimrods - didnt fare much better than 20mm against a b-17, but at least they can hide well in woods (they dont give away their position with tracer). So - replaced 3 20mm with 37mm, still keeping the total AAA = 20.
Increased plant area by adding more buildings.
http://www.savefile.com/files/3366747

Xiola
07-03-2006, 15:47
Sounds cool, lets try it!

Remember the 163s will be UBER against the B17's so flak isnt everything.

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:29
Umm just one question. Who's going to fly the B17s? ;)

Incisor
08-03-2006, 08:40
I will. :)

cannon-fodder
08-03-2006, 10:15
Hi

I will give it a go, sounds great fun

jimDiGriz
08-03-2006, 12:49
major_damage: I will fly the b-17s! <makes one step forward> :))

MajorDamage
08-03-2006, 13:51
No, I'm Spartacus! :D

jimDiGriz
09-03-2006, 16:43
can we can we can we can we can we can we please please please please can we can we try this map <jumps up and down> :) :)

Firelok
10-03-2006, 02:17
I'm Spartacus and my wife is Spartacus too :p
I'm gagging to see what this ones like...
Big Fat Bombers headed into clouds of Flak and rocket powered fighters!!!
I need this :thwak: I'm so excited.

On the Flak issue I was looking at it solely from the B17 survivability front sorry for the misunderstanding.
Ice you mentioned about 20 pieces of Flak for a whole map being a good 'online' amount as a rule of thumb, does this include every type of active artillery? Half-track mounted MG's, active tanks e.t.c. or just 'Flak 88' airburst type stuff? It would be great to know for my own map projects.

MajorDamage
10-03-2006, 11:03
I'm excited too, as long as we can get enough people to form up the bombers. Most players on dogfight servers are just way too impatient to bother climbing to a decent altitude and forming on a leader, and drift off on their own at low level to get picked off piecemeal.

jimDiGriz, will you have b25's as well as the b17's? Good to have a B25 as lead ship - that way the b17's can form on him (if he throttles right back), and drop on his signal. I like to see nice tight bomb patterns ;) I really really wish Oleg would give us a generic bombsight for use in AI bombers.

Oh and Ice or any other experienced mapmaker, I second Firelok's question re aaa amounts - been meaning to ask that one myself.

jimDiGriz
10-03-2006, 12:26
check the map - click here: http://www.savefile.com/files/3366747, download, put the files in your Missions folder, open it with FMB put your plane and some AI enemies (the me163 look very pretty on this map, from a distance:)) and click play.
Or, if you dont need AI opposition - put it in your /missions/net/dogfight/1/ folder and try it out through "multiplay - create dogfight server", with just a b-17 from the alied base.
I think its actually fairly survivable, even for a single b-17..

(but I'd rather have a second opinion on that)

ps. only the .mis and .properties files of course - the .ini file isn't needed, it just messes things up a bit if it's in the /1 folder.

Firelok
10-03-2006, 19:10
:eek: I'm very impressed m8
Just ran it with a b25 for some bombsight action with 1 enemy fighter
sorties ran like this...
1. crashed into mountain in heavy cloud
2.bombrun gyro's screwed, died after low alt drop due to flak
3.dropped bombs at 5,600ft lvl stab on then exploded by rocket fighter

The 'hidden' factory complex is excellent m8, a work of true dedication :)

I predict it will be very popular with the bomber-mad fraternity, and rocket fighters for blues wow!!!

Are you sure we can't just send in James Bond or the Stainless Steel Rat himself instead? ;)
No? well expect screenshots of rocket trails and bombers in flames coming soon to a forum near you. :)

jimDiGriz
11-03-2006, 14:09
The Stainless Steel Rat has been there - he returned with a map of the whole facility :).
Glad you liked it :)