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View Full Version : The Channel dash - LOADS of screenies



MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 17:59
I'm working on my first dogfight map based on the Channel Dash in Feb 42. The German battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisnau make a run for it up the Channel, and British air and sea forces try to intercept them. Still quite early days but couldnt resist posting a load of shots.

Thanks to Algore, Ash, Gordano and Reactive for testing last night. If anyone spots my name hosting a dogfight on HL please feel free to pop in - it'll be this map.

I'll make a proper post with planeset etc at a later date to get feedback from you all. :)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD003.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD007.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD008.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD011.jpg

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:01
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD014.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD015.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD018.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD020.jpg

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:02
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD021.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD022.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD023.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD024.jpg

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:03
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD025.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD026.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD027.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD029.jpg

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:03
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD030.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD031.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD032.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD033.jpg

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 18:04
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD034.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD035.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD037.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD038.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/CD039.jpg

Firelok
07-03-2006, 18:31
Wow, this looks great Major I look forward to playing it. :)

KaiserB_uk
07-03-2006, 18:44
I agree, it looks great. Are you using that japanese boat as a Sunderland? The skin looks good...

adler26
07-03-2006, 18:52
OMG!!...looks fantastic!...can't wait to have a go,I'll keep an eye out on HL.

Dave

Zorin
07-03-2006, 19:04
Looks like an interesting map. I always prefer earlier maps, no uber planes around ;)

So there will be quite a lot of loadout restrictions, right? For example:

The Bf 110 would be a F modell, no MK 108 and no MG gondola. WGr-21 are ok, cause they were fitted to F modells.

The Beaufighter, being a MK VI, can only have the small rockets and the 250 bombs. Torpedos were tested during May 1942 and first successfully saw action during April 1943.

Boemher
07-03-2006, 19:27
The Fw 190 made its 1st major operational debut during the Channel dash. It had to lower its undercarriage to slow down enought o engage Swordfish. Major will you be putting the A4 as flyable ?

Zorin
07-03-2006, 19:33
H8K1 as Short Sunderland can keep its bombs, but no torpedos.

The Mosquito should be the bomber version.

stanford
07-03-2006, 20:03
Wouldn't the A4 decimate everything? I mean, i know it DID decimate, but this is supposed to be fair :)

Boemher
07-03-2006, 21:48
Mosquito, Japanese flying boat, B17 ect are all tough opponents infact id compare taking a JPN flying boat down in Bf 109 F4 to downing a B17 in a Bf 109 F2. If you want to survive longer in an allied bomber take away the Bf 110. Remember the Channel Dash was a decimation for the British airforces involved, the only damage the ships incurred was from a mine at the arse end of the voyage not one bomb or torpedo struck the German ships. Having 8 Sunderlands with airstarts flying towards stationary ships is going to change that.

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 22:35
I agree, it looks great. Are you using that japanese boat as a Sunderland? The skin looks good...

Yeah, Kawanishi had a technical agreement with Short and they look pretty similar. There are a couple of different Sunderland skins for the H8K1 on Flying Legends. You'll also find RAF Coastal Command skins there for the B-17D, the PBN-1 (Catalina) and the MBR-2 (Supermarine Walrus/Sea Otter only without the top wing). The flying boats are all air-start (cos there's no other way), but I'm trying to give them cool places to land at least. :cool:

The problem with the H8K1 is it carries twice the payload of a Short Sunderland. It can sink a Tirpitz BB in one run sometimes it seems. Might have to drop it from the map, which would be a shame cos it looks great I think. Perhaps just up the AAA on the BC's.

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 22:47
The Bf 110 would be a F modell, no MK 108 and no MG gondola. WGr-21 are ok, cause they were fitted to F modells.

The Beaufighter, being a MK VI, can only have the small rockets and the 250 bombs. Torpedos were tested during May 1942 and first successfully saw action during April 1943.

Yeah hadn't got round to thinking about planesets that specifically yet, but this is good to know. The Beaufighter is a problem cos although I know it's really a later model we just don't have any other torpedo plane. If Oleg had given us a Swordfish...

We don't have to have a torp plane at all for the red side, but I know that lots of people love using them and they are always a great feature of maritime maps. Also the conditions are such that you can't launch your torps from miles out and then leg it before the AAA even starts to fire, so more of a challenge for torpedo bombers as the target looms out of the mist :cool:

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 22:54
I once thought of a similar map but disbanded it for two reasons after testing:

1st) I couldn't figure out decent AAA.
2nd) It physically hurt to attack stationary ships on map that was labelled "dash".

Well thank you very much for pissing on my fire Jtd!!! :p

I know what you mean. Even though this is my first attempt at a dogfight map I can see that balancing the AAA will be key to the game balance.

As regards your second point, well there's not much you can do about that on a dogfight server is there? I wish they'd give us an object that represented the wake of a ship to use so at least they'd look like they were moving - sort of horizontal smoke.

The main reason for doing this is because I know there are loads of us who like sinking ships, so I think we could do with more air/sea maps.

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 22:58
The Fw 190 made its 1st major operational debut during the Channel dash. It had to lower its undercarriage to slow down enought o engage Swordfish. Major will you be putting the A4 as flyable ?

Well why did I know you were going to say that mate? :p :D
Yeah, I wasn't sure how the FW190 fitted into al this, I'd sort of suspected it didn't take part. If what you say is true then I'd suggest having a limited number, say 5 or so, and you'd have to look after them... :D

MajorDamage
07-03-2006, 23:05
Remember the Channel Dash was a decimation for the British airforces involved, the only damage the ships incurred was from a mine at the arse end of the voyage not one bomb or torpedo struck the German ships. Having 8 Sunderlands with airstarts flying towards stationary ships is going to change that.

The scenario I'm depicting here is actually a what-if - the British failed to spot the ships all the way from leaving Brest till they were almost at the Dover Straits. This one assumes the radar was actually working that day and starts at dawn.

LeVola
08-03-2006, 13:11
Nice, I think weather was bad during that time but I like that dawn/dusk too.
Read a book of Swordfish year or so ago, and I think FW was there(not sure)

If someone likes to read a book about Swordfish, read War in a Stringbag 1978 by Charles Lamb.

ps. Suomeksi, Upottakaa Rommelin Laivat by Karisto 1979.

Boemher
08-03-2006, 14:06
Re Fw 190's presence at Operation Cerberus

"The Germans had put a great deal of thought into Operation Cerberus. British coastal radar had been jammed as a matter of course but by February 1942, the success of the jamming had become extensive. Vice-Admiral Ciliax, commander of the battle-cruisers, could also sail knowing that the Luftwaffe could provide a total of 280 fighter planes to give aerial cover for the duration of the journey. Colonel Adolf Galland, charged with the task for the Luftwaffe, had mostly formidable Me-109s and FW-190s at his disposal, along with Me-110s. From the start of the journey, Ciliaz could expect a minimum of 16 fighters covering his force and a maximum of 32. When he got near to the Straits of Dover, this number would be increased significantly."


"1942 - THE FIGHT CONTINUES
At the beginning of 1942, Fighter Command had 60 squadrons of Spitfires. The Fw-190 was first encountered in quantity during operations in connection with the dash through the English Channel by the warships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau from Brest to Wilhelmshaven on 12 February 1942. Despite being aware of the imminence of the break-out, a combination of bad weather and unserviceabilities in the patrolling aircraft had given the Germans a head start. The ships were eventually discovered by a section of Spitfires of 91 Squadron, and by the Senior Air Staff Officer of No 11 Group, Group Captain Victor Beamish, who was aloft in another Spitfire. Spitfires subsequently fought a series of running battles with Fw-190s and Bf-109s."



Just Google up Channel Dash + Fw190

Boemher
08-03-2006, 16:17
Maybe more than 5 Fw 190 A4's Major in light of the above quotes. The Spitfire L.F Vb is an excellent counter to this aircraft. Sea level speed is 515 km/h for the Spit compared to 540 km/h for the Fw 190 A4. This makes the performance gap between these two models closer than the Spitfire IX and Fw 190 A5/6 where there is a 35 Km/h gap.

Algorex
08-03-2006, 16:28
I like the idea of making the weather a bit worse, firstly it's more historicly accurate and secondly makes low level extented range torpedo drops at least more difficult if not impossible (the way it should be). And on the subject of adding the FW-190a4, they do give the germans an excellent fighter-bomber as almost all destroyers can be sunk by two sc500s.

stanford
08-03-2006, 16:42
Tested the map last night, the ships are already invisible at sea level from 2km away. It doesn't need to be made any worse.

Boemer - top speed is one thing, but doesn't the FW obilterate it in accelleration, roll and climb? I'm pretty sure if you're patient enough it would be impossible for a Mk Vb to shoot down an A4.

MajorDamage
08-03-2006, 19:17
Thanks for the info Boemher. I trust you were submitting it in the interests of historical accuracy and not just because you like to fly the 190 and rule the map. ;)

It does look like we'll have to have FW190s in the scenario but we have to remember that game balance is the most important thing. The Spit Vb is a bit porked in this game I reckon, but it felt like a fairly reasonable matchup against a 109F.

I still think the FW190 numbers should be limited, though it's worth remembering that UK1 doesnt have limited loadouts. Have to think about it further...

Boemher
08-03-2006, 19:38
Spitfire Vb L.F is a great fighter. You guys must have been on the wrong side of the Fw 190 too many times to see past it. What I was pointing out in my last post is that the Spitfire Vb L.F is more competitive against the Fw 190 A4 than the Spitfire IX is against the Fw 190 A5 - below 4000m. The CW has a fster rate of roll at some speeds has a much better rate of climb and generally outmanuvers it.

There are loads of maps with the A5 vs IX and one with the Vb LF vs A4. Id be happy to take on Fw 190 A4s in the Mosquito let alone the Cropped Spitfire. I suggest we test it again Major and I'll fly RAF and Stanford can jump in the Fw 190 A4 :D

stanford
08-03-2006, 19:52
But you could shoot me down in a flying turnip.

MajorDamage
09-03-2006, 00:40
Hey, personally I don't care - I'm crap whatever I fly in. I just wanna sink ships :D I have to try to make everyone happy (which of course is impossible).

Absolutely, we'll test it with the FW, just let me move the bases around a little and give the AAA a tweak. At the end of the day, things like the planeset can be changed fairly easily once the map is in circulation (assuming the great map Czar accepts it). At the moment it's all still very early stages and I'm still on a learning curve. I reckon we won't really know how well the thing plays until it's on the server with a couple of dozen players. I'm more worried at this stage about balancing the ship objectives and the AAA than the fighters.

Many thanks for the input though everyone, it is very much appreciated. :)

Boemher
09-03-2006, 12:49
If you ever want to have a chat about Naval stuff Major give me a PM or open up a thread relating to it. Id like to have a map that had an interpretation of Operation Torch so we could get some USN Wildcat action against Bf 109 F4's and Macchi 202's

Boemher
09-03-2006, 12:51
But you could shoot me down in a flying turnip.
Trying to take of when your Turnip's wing has spawned inside of a Beaufighter can make it problematic :D I'll try and upload track if you tell me how :p

MajorDamage
09-03-2006, 13:13
If you ever want to have a chat about Naval stuff Major give me a PM or open up a thread relating to it. Id like to have a map that had an interpretation of Operation Torch so we could get some USN Wildcat action against Bf 109 F4's and Macchi 202's

A chat about navel fluff?

Operation Torch would indeed be good to do. I'd thought about it but I keep hearing rumours of new MTO maps coming soon so we'll talk about it then for sure. I don't think anyone wants to see yet another scenario on that desert map. :)

TheDawg
09-03-2006, 14:58
Operation Torch would indeed be good to do.

I'm in.
dont know how "cool" of a DF map it would make, but a coop would be interesting.
Hurdle #1.
If you make either the one of four naval engagements accurate, everyone better have serious amounts of memory, and high end vid card, or dumb the settings way down-
attacking the shore battery same-
The amount of water effects and tracers will stomp the snot out of most PC's

that said, its a very easy battle to copy- lots of maps, accounts etc.
flip the coin- one side accurate and slow, the other side, similar and probably a better DF map

I could have it by weeks end
Let me know which way to lean and I'll crank it out.
send an email hawgdog@zoominternet.net.

Is it possible for TWO to work on the map at the same time?
If one were to focus on shore/blue and the other water/red it would be very easy.

MajorDamage
09-03-2006, 15:12
Don't have a lot more spare time to spend right now Dawg, but I'd be happy to help if I can. Might be better in a week or so. Otherwise, just go ahead and do it - co op or df I'd look forward to playing it.

As regards 2 people working on the same map I think that's only possible if they tag-team it. Might be possible to merge the files by cutting and pasting sections in the mis file though I suppose??

TheDawg
09-03-2006, 16:16
merging files.
I tried here and it asked if I wanted to over wright it....pffft
stupid bill gates
gotta be an easier way.
It would make making very realistic maps possible too
well, I'll see what I can do with google and missionbuilder

MajorDamage
09-03-2006, 17:02
I wouldn't trust it to Bill Gates. I meant opening up the mis file in Notepad and manually copying and pasting sections of the text from one file to the other. Should be possible in theory, no?

norrismcwhirter
09-03-2006, 18:11
Free edit/merge tools:

http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/about.php

and

http://sourceforge.net/projects/winmerge

http://winmerge.sourceforge.net/2.4/images/file-compare.gif

TheDawg
09-03-2006, 18:54
m'eh, I just spent half an hour in mission builder
Doing this map will be a waste of time.
It will be just another Malta map variation.