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Firelok
16-03-2006, 19:00
Apennines43

Fighter Bomber Mission set high in the Apennine mountains in the Italian theatre just after the signing of the Italian Armistice in September 1943.

Short Brief-Sep43: The Italians have signed an armistice with the allies. German forces fight on in northern Italy,aided by those loyal to the old regime.
High the Apennine mountains a small town on the Allied side of the front has rebelled against the armistice...

Brief:
Red(USAAF/ICBAF):
Axis Forces have taken advantage of recent bad weather to counter-attack south east along the road in A3 and threaten encirclement, we must destroy these forces .
The weather also trapped a number of transport aircraft on the threatened airfield in B3.
This airfield and our light armoured forces headed south to recapture the town must be protected from air attack.
Also unofficially we have secured help from the Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force to fly against the Axis powers(We are painting roundels on their planes for identification purposes.)
We are not ideally equipped but we must act, good luck and to your aircraft gentlemen.

Blue(Luftwaffe/Aviazione Nazionale Republicana)
The mountain weather has been our ally and allowed a swift advance south-east of Panzer and artillery units in grid A3.
The skies have cleared and these units need cover whilst refuelling before their final push to secure the town in B3.
We must not miss an opportunity to pounce on the enemy units stranded at the airfield in B3 or to disable their armoured counter-attack before it forms.
We will use our older dive-bomber aircraft to their utmost and whatever Fighter-bombers we can muster. Our loyal Italian allies will fly their Macchi's alongside us in our endeavour...

Aircraft:
Red:
P38-J
P39-N
p40-M
P47-*D10*
P51-B
MC 205 I
MC 205 III

BONUS A/C:
A20 bomber

Blue:
109G-2 (no gunpods)
110G-2 (no gunpods)
190A-4
Cr42
Ju87-D
MC 202 XII
MC 205 I

BONUS A/C:
He111 bomber

Ground Targets(both sides): Trucks and soft targets with some tanks.



Explanation:
I wanted to build a map that represented a skirmish rather than a full battle and place a greater importance on the Macchi Folgores added in the latest patches. I read that the Folgore flew with the Aviazione Nazionale Republicana against the Folgore's in the Allied Co-Belligerent Forces after the Italian Armistice in September 1943.(source Collins/Janes Guide Aircraft WWII) This on further research proved to be untrue as the ICBAF was sent to fight in the Balkans(mostly in P39's) rather than against fellow Italian's in the north,I was discouraged. However noticing that the Objective_Italy map has Macchi's flying both sides I decided to press on.(this is the only fully 'Fantasy' aspect to Apennines43.)
So Italian theatre, USAAF/ICBAF planes vs. Luftwaffe/ANR and to represent a part of the front where not all the latest models were flying and there would be supply problem based on the difficult mountain terrain.
The fluid allegiances of particular mountain towns around this time created a suitable start-point for my scenario.
(source. Eric Newby in 'Love and War in the Apennines' describes his experiences on the run from Axis forces in this mountainous region.)

This is my first 'Online' map and I thoroughly expect to have to adjust things after testing if I've missed stuff.
Problems I've had include;
No correct roundels for ICBAF Aircraft(I've used French ones)
Stopping the AAA batteries engaging ground targets(solved by moving some units)
Calculating target radii for inclusion into the mission.ini file.(solved this by placing easily recognised objects noting their coords then removing them)
Extracting the correct [Bf]briefings blurb and adding it to the red/blue briefings in the mission description, this is my only stumbling block before submission and help from a more experienced mapper would be greatly appreciated.
Here's some Pics..
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/apennines43.jpg

Allied Airfield
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/ApenninesICBAF.jpg
Axis Airfield
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/ApenninesAxis.jpg
cont...

Firelok
16-03-2006, 19:07
continued...
Axis Targets
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/apennineaxistarg.jpg
Allied Targets
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/apenninealliedtarg.jpg
I would like to personally thank the following
MajorDamage
[Bfs]Gordano
Algore
Ash
reactive
Singaslinga
[Bfs]JtD

for variously helping me out by a bit of testing/hosting and answering questions Thx guys.

If someone could help us out with the extended 'official' brief stuff then I can PM and submit this within the next couple of days :)

Zorin
16-03-2006, 19:56
Guess that'll be an interesting map Firelok.

But you should exchange the italian planes. The 205 III has german 151/20, don't think that the italians could maintain them without german support.

Firelok
17-03-2006, 00:35
Thx for the heads-up about these things; my error i think was relying on the year written in the Aircraft Descriptions in FB with P47-D22, it'll be the D-10 on submission.The swap over for the Folgores actually reinforces ANR/Axis ties and explains why the aircraft are slightly different models on each side.

I have another version of the same map which has Bf109G-6 instead of the Bf109G-2 although I chose the G-2 because it's slightly earlier representing that this wasn't an area that had all the very latest fighters. However it's been suggested that the G-2 is such a good dogfighter that it might 'own the map' I wanted to see how this panned out after the map ran with more than few people have you any thoughts about this?

p.s. I'll change them to camo trucks ;)

Firelok
17-03-2006, 01:20
lol I just went and looked at my .mis and prop files and it's a P47D-10 i chose all along :)
I've edited my blurb above...

Zorin
17-03-2006, 02:50
....The swap over for the Folgores actually reinforces ANR/Axis ties and explains why the aircraft are slightly different models on each side.
..

Ok, so the red side will only have like 5 or so IIIs simply because they'll run out of ammo pretty soon, as they have no resupply of german ammo. That doesn't make any sense Firelok. Swap the III and I and everything is fine.

Firelok
17-03-2006, 03:25
He he,this is a 'Folgore/Veltro' thing

MC 205 V Seria III is for blues (because of MG151/20) this is exactly what I understood from your first post. :)

The ANR is the Aviazione Nazionale Republicana those Italian pilots who stayed to fight with the Germans so they have access to German ammo for their Seria IIIs (ANR/Luftwaffe)

Reds get MC 205 V Seria I which has Breda-SAFAT MG. Italian guns for Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force (USAAF/ICBAF)

Zorin
17-03-2006, 03:37
Ok, but your first post still says it's the other way around.

MajorDamage
17-03-2006, 10:35
We tested this map the other night and it's a great low level ground attack mission.

Good to see the mountains map being put to good use, especially now that the Schweinfurt map has been ruined by the high level blue base.

Firelok
17-03-2006, 18:30
Sorry about the confusion Zorin I guess I should stop posting in the easly hours when confused :rolleyes: (but I just get excited)

JtD - I'm of the same opinion myself especially as the MC 205_III is stronger for blues.
I've got my head around editing the correct brief so planeset for map submission is...

RED
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-10
P-51B-NA
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
bonus
A20

BLUE
Bf-109G-6(no gunpods)
Bf-110G-2(no gunpods)
Fw-190A-4
CR_42
Ju-87D-3
MC-202_VII
MC-205_III
bonus
He111 H-2

I think other alterations would have to await testing

NS-IceFire
18-03-2006, 14:14
No Spitfire VIII? That'd be the sort of scenario it should be in.

Firelok
18-03-2006, 14:24
I wanted to stay away from the mixed US/British air forces theme to be honest as it's all too common already. I wanted to represent an American controlled air sector. This by the way leaves open the possibility of other Med/Italy maps dealing with wholly british fighter aircraft perhaps when the new Italy maps finally show up.

Gordano
18-03-2006, 14:30
No Spitfire VIII? That'd be the sort of scenario it should be in.

I'd have to say leave it out.

The map will simple turn into another massed dogfight map with only the same few focusing on the ground targets.

The primarily American plane set should hopefully make people think a little more tactically.

Also Firelok I like the idea of having a bomber as a bonus plane.

Firelok
18-03-2006, 17:45
What about A pure Brit planeset in the east Med/Balkans? Mossie, spitVIII and mustang but definately not on the desert map? scenario suggestion?

NS-IceFire
19-03-2006, 18:01
I wanted to stay away from the mixed US/British air forces theme to be honest as it's all too common already. I wanted to represent an American controlled air sector. This by the way leaves open the possibility of other Med/Italy maps dealing with wholly british fighter aircraft perhaps when the new Italy maps finally show up.
Makes sense.

I think I'm going to go whole hog when they finish and release the ItalyOnline map that they are working on. It'll be a blast for both sides I think.

Firelok
19-03-2006, 19:42
Roger That m8, any sneak preview you know of?

Brcn
20-03-2006, 07:31
Hi,

I received the map, i ll upload it soon. I ll let you know when it is on the list.

Boemher
20-03-2006, 14:35
With this map plane set the RED side owns the BLUE side. The P38 is faster than anything Axis fighter at any altitude, the P47 will dominate above 4000m and the Mustang B above 3000m.

I fly US birds quite often and if you are familiar with them you will realise that this is actually a very uneven planeset. If it is 1943 why are there are no Fw 190 A5's or A6's either? If you are looking for historical correctness they were present and if you were looking for map balance then they would be needed. The A4 is a 1942 model and is below par for this timescale and planeset.

On the plus side Im happy there are no Spitfires for a change, but as it is this will be a map for P38/47 guys to rack up some unopposed kills.

stanford
20-03-2006, 16:25
Boemer wants a better FW!!!!

norrismcwhirter
20-03-2006, 17:01
With this map plane set the RED side owns the BLUE side. The P38 is faster than anything Axis fighter at any altitude, the P47 will dominate above 4000m and the Mustang B above 3000m.

I fly US birds quite often and if you are familiar with them you will realise that this is actually a very uneven planeset. If it is 1943 why are there are no Fw 190 A5's or A6's either? If you are looking for historical correctness they were present and if you were looking for map balance then they would be needed. The A4 is a 1942 model and is below par for this timescale and planeset.

On the plus side Im happy there are no Spitfires for a change, but as it is this will be a map for P38/47 guys to rack up some unopposed kills.

Why are you surprised? ;)

Boemher
20-03-2006, 18:57
At the moment I see a great map, but I will only fly red on that map because there is a 30 km/h speed gap at low altitudes and a 50/60 km/h one at high altitudes. That to me seems pretty unbalanced. Its not likle taking a Hurricane and fighting a Bf 109, because at least in the Hurricane you can outmanuver your enemies.

Sea level speed for the P38 J is 570 km/h
Sea level speed for the Fw 190 A4 is 540 km/h

Even P47 can match/exceed that.

stanford
20-03-2006, 19:44
TT's excellent post gives true-game speeds for FW's La's etc.

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=10155

Firelok
20-03-2006, 19:51
Before I submitted this map in it's prototype stages there where a number of aircraft that are no longer present. The A-5 was one of these, I decided that the situation I was suggesting with this map was one of difficulty of supply and a local engagement flaring up in an area where the frontline squadrons engaged maybe didn't have the best of everything available.
The balance for Blues in this map is centred around the toughness, location and number of ground targets and the 'turnaround' flight time to and from them.
I freely admit that these balance issues may need tweaking as I have yet to achieve an instinct for 'map-balance' with this my first proposal. However I do stand by my initial description of this map as a Fighter-bomber map (something at which the FW190-A4 is very capable)
If adjustments need to be made it would be to do with objective difficulty for either side.
The blues have access to the largest munitions available (on Ju-87) I personally consider this an advantage to blues.
p.s. do try the Cr42 as a stand-in for the Henschel theres a lot of fun to be had in this baby. ;)

Boemher
20-03-2006, 23:18
P-38 569
P-47D-10 548
Fw 190A-4 558

In the same way I maybe am doing something wrong in the Fw 190 A4 you are surely doing something wrong in the P38. I can sustain over 570 Km/h in that bird at sea level. If you try to take the Fw 190 A4 close to 540km/h you will overheat extremely fast. The 100% prop pitch bug to attain 558 km/h is engine suicide you know this JtD.

Boemher
20-03-2006, 23:21
Before I submitted this map in it's prototype stages there where a number of aircraft that are no longer present. The A-5 was one of these, I decided that the situation I was suggesting with this map was one of difficulty of supply and a local engagement flaring up in an area where the frontline squadrons engaged maybe didn't have the best of everything available.
The balance for Blues in this map is centred around the toughness, location and number of ground targets and the 'turnaround' flight time to and from them.
I freely admit that these balance issues may need tweaking as I have yet to achieve an instinct for 'map-balance' with this my first proposal. However I do stand by my initial description of this map as a Fighter-bomber map (something at which the FW190-A4 is very capable)
If adjustments need to be made it would be to do with objective difficulty for either side.
The blues have access to the largest munitions available (on Ju-87) I personally consider this an advantage to blues.
p.s. do try the Cr42 as a stand-in for the Henschel theres a lot of fun to be had in this baby. ;)


As I said I think its a cool map but in my honest opinion it will be unbalanced. Basing side balance around ground attack toughness is illogical because the Red team has better groun attack aircraft as well. Fw 190 A4 is excellent, it is my favourite aircraft all told - perhaps jointly with the D9 but in my opinion it is no match for the P47D, P38 J or P51B. All of these aircraft are mid to late 43 against a very early 1942 Fw 190.

Oleg has clearly stated that if map makers want a Fw 190 that is a 1942 fighter version they should use the A5.

I accept that some maps need balance but this is lopsided. Check my stats I fly red more than blue and there is a reason for this.

Boemher
20-03-2006, 23:25
TT's excellent post gives true-game speeds for FW's La's etc.

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=10155

TT's post is missing the sea level speeds of the P51 B, the P47 D 10 and the P38 J. Unless I am missing something attaining 561km/h in a Fw 190 A4 while rendering the engine useless while still not being faster than the 570 km/h plus P38 J is a waste of time.

The Fw 190 A5 does not even match the P38 J in speed - nor should it but at leats we are talking 43 aircraft not a year mismatch.

Boemher
20-03-2006, 23:29
Why are you surprised? ;)


Im not really. There are other maps where I can jump in a La5F or La5FN (with my grand total 5 hours total flightime in the type) and own someone who excells in the Fw 190 A4/F8 like Bokatar by virtue of flying the faster, more manuverable faster climbing aircraft.

Firelok
20-03-2006, 23:59
Thanks alot Brcn I should have posted my regards first but got a little distracted. :rolleyes:

NS-IceFire
21-03-2006, 02:10
Would adding some limited numbers of the later model MC.205 aid the balance issue? The later model has MG151/20 cannons in the wings.

Firelok
21-03-2006, 03:57
One of my aims here was to bring the italian planes to the forefront a little more, as such the MC-205 V Series III "Veltro", Macchi is available for blues this has the 20 mm MG 151/20 Cannons (275rpg)

As for the P38J the compressability issues it has are a major achillies heel
Hardballs aircraft viewer has this to say about the P38J:-
Advantages-
- High speed
- Long range
- Powerful armament
- Considerable bomb load
Disadvantages-
- Not as maneuverable as smaller enemy fighters
- Large and distinctive target
- Problematic control at high speeds, especially in a dive.

Whereas about the FW190 A4 it says this:-
Advantages-
- One of the best serial front-line fighters
- Good flight characteristics
- Simple and comfortable to control and maintain
- Strong firepower
- Good field of vision from the cockpit
- Reliability
- Good armor for the crew and power plant
Disadvantages
- Insufficient field of view from the cockpit while taxiing

NS-IceFire
21-03-2006, 04:30
I'll gladly eat all of those guys for breakfast in a P-38J. The P-38 is a great fighter in the right hands....its hard to master but I'm feeling pretty good in it on rare occasions :)

The more I learn about this map the more I like about it. Firelok you have made some great choices.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 10:25
One of my aims here was to bring the italian planes to the forefront a little more, as such the MC-205 V Series III "Veltro", Macchi is available for blues this has the 20 mm MG 151/20 Cannons (275rpg)

As for the P38J the compressability issues it has are a major achillies heel
Hardballs aircraft viewer has this to say about the P38J:-
Advantages-
- High speed
- Long range
- Powerful armament
- Considerable bomb load
Disadvantages-
- Not as maneuverable as smaller enemy fighters
- Large and distinctive target
- Problematic control at high speeds, especially in a dive.

Whereas about the FW190 A4 it says this:-
Advantages-
- One of the best serial front-line fighters
- Good flight characteristics
- Simple and comfortable to control and maintain
- Strong firepower
- Good field of vision from the cockpit
- Reliability
- Good armor for the crew and power plant
Disadvantages
- Insufficient field of view from the cockpit while taxiing

Hardballs aircraft viewer is a reference tool that cannot quantify how good a fighter is in aerial combat. IceFire said in his post the P38 J can defeat any fighter on the map. In the P38 I can shoot down any Blue fighter on the map while remaining relatively immune from interception. The P47 gives me the same options as does the Mustang B.

For instace why does Hardball's (which uses Aircraft Viewer information) mention reliability as an advantage for the Fw 190? It is irrelevant. What most combat situations come down to is altitude advantage, speed and firepower. The Fw 190 A4 can and will shoot down a lot of the aircraft on this map but it is very limited against US fighters flown by someone who has their head screwed on. By placing an inferior Fw 190 A4 in the map you rely on the Red side flying stupidly for it to be effective. All it takes is a P47 using the same tactics as the Fw 190 pilot but flying 1000m higher and the Fw 190 guy is screwed. He cannot attack while leaving his 6 open.

You experienced this Firelok a few weeks ago when the squad of Chuck Norris guys came on the server and dominated the fight in their P47's.

For those of you who think I whine for whinings sake look at my stats. I fly Red equally if not more than I fly Blue and I will often fly the under dog. I am very happy to take the P38 J or P47 D in this map and score almost unopposed.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 10:32
Please send me a track of a P-38 J sustaining a speed in excess of 570 at sea level. The prop pitch on the A-4 has very little effect on engine durability. The A-5 is faster than the P-38 at most altitudes.

How do I post tracks ??? Can you post a link where I can upload it? What do you want me to show you ; a 5 minute test of the P38 J running at 5 m with radiators closed at 570 km/h and Fw 190 A4 running between 15km/h and 30km/h slower ?

Or would you rather a relevant test where there is a co altitude merge with the P38 J and two Fw 190 A4's where the P38 J can remain immune at all altitudes if he choses not to fight? Fly with radiators open in the P38 J then whenever you need to escape close radiators and go in to a shallow dive. You can extend from even a A5 this way. You are in the faster aircraft plain and simple. It keeps energy better, it accelerates faster and it climbs/zoom climbs better. The Desert maps which already feature the P38 J and Fw 190 A4 have demonstrated this time and again. GreyMouser knows this, so does Defbond so does IceFire any one who flies this scenario knows that the P38 J can and should own the Fw 190 A4.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 10:35
[QUOTE=Firelok]One of my aims here was to bring the italian planes to the forefront a little more, as such the MC-205 V Series III "Veltro", Macchi is available for blues this has the 20 mm MG 151/20 Cannons (275rpg) [QUOTE=Firelok]

The Macchi is available for both sides though, I know that the Blue benefits from the Mg 151 version but still it wont even the balance.

I have siad repeatedly I like the map and the planes on offer. I just dont think its a balanced map.

Look up statistics and see what the K/D ratio of the Fw 190 A4 is on UKD2.

MajorDamage
21-03-2006, 12:46
Here's an idea - you've got Macchis on both sides right? Why not have Fw190 D9's on both sides as well? Then everyone would be happy.

norrismcwhirter
21-03-2006, 12:59
RW - I agree with you - giving red decent '43 planes and deliberately reducing the chances of being able to repel these attacks effectively by giving blue outclassed '42 planes is clearly unbalanced. And, considering we've heard a lot about play balancing of late, I wonder why it doesn't apply to this map?

The A4 will be completely outclassed by the attacking aircraft, both fighters and bombers. If any do get to the altitude necessary to deal with the attackers it will be a miracle and with F6 handing the advantage over even more, it will be an easy win for red. The Macchi is a reasonable turner but that's no use against the high speed horde that will be arriving.

But, no one needs to listen to either myself or Boemher as it seems like syndicated members don't have a lot of muscle in making decisions for the server anymore ;)

Boemher
21-03-2006, 13:04
Here's an idea - you've got Macchis on both sides right? Why not have Fw190 D9's on both sides as well? Then everyone would be happy.

Or P38 Js ?

norrismcwhirter
21-03-2006, 13:18
Here's an idea - you've got Macchis on both sides right? Why not have Fw190 D9's on both sides as well? Then everyone would be happy.

We've already had D9s on both sides on one map. And that was wrong, too.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 13:25
Im all for this map I like flying the P38 and P47. However Id like some map to be implemented with 43 German aircraft against 42 Allied aircraft just for some target practice flying for the Blue team for a change.

stanford
21-03-2006, 14:41
No one will fly the FW anyway. Just put it on Firelok, it's a useless plane with F6.

Honestly the 30km/h difference between the 2 models won't make much difference to the majority of pilots, I can't see why it's that big a deal. Sure the A5 can stay with the P38-J in a straight line, but it can't climb with it.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 14:50
No one will fly the FW anyway. Just put it on Firelok, it's a useless plane with F6.

Honestly the 30km/h difference between the 2 models won't make much difference to the majority of pilots, I can't see why it's that big a deal. Sure the A5 can stay with the P38-J in a straight line, but it can't climb with it.


Exactly. Im not asking for the Fw 190 A5 to be included so it is an uber plane it needs to be there to level the advantage the US types hold in speed. It may not make a difference to the majority of fliers in this thread but not every one who posts here flies red.

P.S is it as easy as that Stanford to just say "Ok Firelok put in the A5" dang I should have tried that instead of trying to reason with you nay sayers :D

stanford
21-03-2006, 14:57
Everyone here knows I have the final word on everything. :) I do fly predominantly red, you're right, but that's because I do love the Allied planes muchly. Always have. I just find I have more fun :D

I want a chuck norris smiley.

Create your own chuck norris t-shirt here! (http://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?sid=118617&affiliate=321003)

Get inspired with quotes about chuck norris here! (http://chucknorrisfacts.com/)

Boemher
21-03-2006, 15:00
Im a Red flying pro Blue pilot. Fw 190 is the best be sure "all your SPits belong to us" but that doesnt mean I dont like flying against it.

PS Chuck Norris did actually win the war.Try the P47 on any map and take it to 5000/ 6000m. You can shed Chuck Norris esque pubic hair on all of the Blues beneath you.

Firelok
21-03-2006, 18:38
I've tried pretty hard to search out exactly what types of FW190 A's where flying in Italy September 1943 a lot of the online source information is from allied sources and it unhelpfully just says FW190's. As JtD says there's good evidence for the presence of Bf109 G6's. From what I can gather the FW190 A4 production run switched to A5's in spring 1943, Were these new models kept for the air defence of Germany or assigned everywhere, I don't know. The 'ingame' Fw190 A4 is modelled without boost but from what I've read online there was a lot of them with boost(putting them nearer to the A5) perhaps someone could clarify this?
Bf109 Gustav's where the mainstay of the Luftwaffe in the period we are discussing, I suggest they will be the mainstay of the Blues in this map; I doubt the predominant choice will be the FW190 A4 or A5.
After the inclusion of the A5 the next 'howl from the stalls' will be for spitfires to combat it. :thwak:

norrismcwhirter
21-03-2006, 18:56
Oleg has already said, himself, that if people want to see A4 performance proper (i.e. not Eastern Front jabo derated) then they should use the normal A5 on maps.

As this presumably isn't an Eastern front map (no La5FN ;)), Oleg's statement is valid, presumably, for this case.

Boemher
21-03-2006, 19:13
Fw 190 A5 saw service in North Africa and also in the allied landings at Sicily. Mainly in the Jabo role I may add. My earlier statement and the one Norris is refering too is that Oleg himself stated clearly that the Fw 190 A5 represents the Fw 190 A4 fighter version. If we want to have an A4 present the A5 should be there unless it is very early 1942. Or if people chose to leave out the A5 for map balance sakes.

The P38 is very good JtD you do need to fly it with someone, however that rings true for all aircraft types. If I was in a P38 with someone else who likes the type we could take 2 Fw 190's at any height. It has been done on the Desert 43 map with the German ships and the island at the top right hand corner, myself Defbond and GreyMouser flew P38's and Dawg and Wild Weasel flew P39s and we dominated the map for over 30 minutes.

Algorex
21-03-2006, 20:17
JG - Jagdgeschwader - fighter squadrons ("hunting squadrons")
SG - Schlachtgeschwader - ground support squadrons ("battle squadrons"), usually equipped with Ju-87's in the early phases and Fw F&G in late war
SKG - Schnellkampfgeschwader - fighter bomber squadrons ("fast combat squadrons"), usually equipped with Fw A in 1942/1943 and F&G later on

SKGs were originally designed to around bf110 jabos, only two squadrons were actually formed, SKG210 in the beginning of operation barbarossa that actually used bf110s until it was renamed ZG1. The other SKG the SKG10 was formed for MTO and it mostly used FW-190A5 jabos. The wierd part about this is all the other FW-190 jabo squadrons at the time were designated as Sch.Gs. And to make things even more mixed up some FW equipped JG operated semi-independed Jabo staffels such as 10.(Jabo)/JG26

In late '43 all german ground attack planes were joined under the command of newly appointed General der Schlachtflieger forming SGs, mixed units of stuka, hs123 and Focke-wulf jabos.

Luftwaffe 1933-1945 (http://www.ww2.dk/) posted by Jayteedee is a pretty solid source of this sort of infomation.

Firelok
21-03-2006, 21:19
Thanks for all this new information guys it's all very helpful, placing aircraft in the theatre we are talking about is exactly what's needed from my end. So summing up, 109G6 representing the 'hunter squadron' aircraft, Bf110/FW190A5's as the 'Jabo element' along with 'ground support' Ju87's. I'm going to wait however to make any relevant changes until the map has been flown on the server, rather than altering the planeset, re-submitting and then correcting stuff again after server tests.

NS-IceFire
21-03-2006, 22:10
Here's an idea - you've got Macchis on both sides right? Why not have Fw190 D9's on both sides as well? Then everyone would be happy.
Interesting story...when Italy surrendered..."half" of the Italian airforce went with the surrender and actually were pressed back into action. The MC.205 is both an Axis and an Allied fighter. I'm not sure if the two met in combat but the possibility for that exists.

Firelok
22-03-2006, 00:07
Ice check out first post in this thread for a summary of why they are flying on both sides in this map. In reality ICBAF (Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force) was assigned to patrol and escort roles mostly over the Balkans, in this scenario I'm in 'what if' territory and dealing with the first few days after the signing of the Italian Armistice before the official creation of ICBAF, I use it as a useful term to describe those italian pilots flying alongside the allies.

NS-IceFire
23-03-2006, 15:16
Ice check out first post in this thread for a summary of why they are flying on both sides in this map. In reality ICBAF (Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force) was assigned to patrol and escort roles mostly over the Balkans, in this scenario I'm in 'what if' territory and dealing with the first few days after the signing of the Italian Armistice before the official creation of ICBAF, I use it as a useful term to describe those italian pilots flying alongside the allies.
Yep...no I get it...I'm just saying that the possibility exists for such a scenario...regardless of it being 100% historically accurate or not.

Grey_Mouser
24-03-2006, 03:34
I have refrained from saying anything and watching the debate...I have done some of my own testing too and here are my results for top sea level speed on Crimea etc...etc...etc...

P-47D-10...545
P-51B...589
P-38J... 580

Bf109G2...540
Bf109G6...540
Fw190A4...561 (man. prop pitch)
Fw190A5/6...577

Turning ability is much more subjective, but I'd rate the aircraft from best to worst...

G2
G6
J
B
A4
A5
D-10

Of the group, I'd rate the A5 as the best killer/offensive weapon but the Mustang as being the most survivable and on UK1, it would have no problem dealing with the 109's...really neither would the Lightning.

The Fw complicates things a little bit and I think all around, I'd rather be in the A5 but I don't see it unbalancing the map.

The thing that I would like to see is an airstart for the Medium bombers and the Jug. The Jug is by far the weakest low altitude fighter but get it up in the air a bit and the enemy will have lots of trouble with it. The view is porked worse than the Fw imho so it will be near useless in UK2, but with altitude, in UK1 it aught to do quite well.

We have a few maps with these plane sets and I think that as long as the Luftwaffe fighters are not given airstarts, the Red team will do just fine except for those that do not fight to the advantages of their aircraft.

Just give the Jug a lift so more folks will fly it. It has an agonizingly slow climb rate while the Lightning, Mustang and Fw are all pretty close and the 109 is the mountain goat of the group.

I think a Fw190A5 is a fairly even match with those allied aircraft and the A4 is slightly inferior. I think that if I were in a B model Mustang, I might have a little problem shooting down Fw's, but I would not be flying around worrying about anything other than being bounced.

NS-IceFire
24-03-2006, 04:16
Remember that if we want to have a FW190A performing to the 1942/1943 standards that JG2 and JG26 were operating their A-3s and A-4s at you might as well skip to the A-5 or A-6 since the boost performance is roughly equivalent.

stanford
24-03-2006, 15:48
Remember that if we want to have a FW190A performing to the 1942/1943 standards that JG2 and JG26 were operating their A-3s and A-4s at you might as well skip to the A-5 or A-6 since the boost performance is roughly equivalent.What about non-boost performance?

Grey_Mouser
24-03-2006, 22:27
Serious or typo?

I keep a spreadsheet, much like Norris posted, where when I get in a testing mode, I write the stuff down and that is what I have on my spreadsheet.

It is from 4.03 and it is radiators closed, but I am sure that I got that number or had a typo. The P-38L I have down at 570 and it was always slower than the J so, yes I suspect it is correct. Radiators closed, default weaponry, 100% fuel, Crimea, noon at about 10meters.

NS-IceFire
24-03-2006, 23:42
What about non-boost performance?
No no...they have a higher boost regardless. I think its 1.48 ATA but I could be making that up. I think the A-4 has 1.32 ATA which is derated for Eastern Front Jabo FW190s...the A-3/A-4 that fought on the Western and Italian fronts would have had higher boost settings. To get those settings...you need to use the A-5 to represent that. Otherwise you have a under performing model compared to what would be typical against the Western Allies.

They intentionally ran their FW190s at a higher level...and deployed the FW190 in the Western theater first because of the great respect for the Spitfire. This was carried through for the rest of the war.

Brcn
27-03-2006, 11:24
Map has been added on both servers. Enjoy.

Firelok
27-03-2006, 19:34
Thx Brcn :)

Brcn
27-03-2006, 23:28
You can always want an admin to change the mission to Appenines to test it. Unfortunately i have so little time in front of the pc nowadays and can't fly anymore :(. The map names are Apennines43, BApennines43 and RApennines43.

Firelok
28-03-2006, 01:08
Flew Apennines43 on UK2 earlier this evening everything seemed OK, I'll maybe tweak target numbers and such, planes seem quite balanced; need more reports of what it's like with a full-ish server though. Thanks again Brcn for your efforts, much appreciated. :)

Firelok
04-04-2006, 23:05
Have sent in a final version of Apennines43, there have been no comments about the current test version adverse or otherwise about it on these threads, yet.
changes...
Have finalised the planeset swapping the 190A4 for A5 in response to the suggestions above and I have balanced the target numbers slightly.

Brcn
05-04-2006, 00:28
I will update the map tomorrow. Thanks for your efforts.

Firelok
08-05-2006, 20:52
Have sent in updated map files inluding FBD info

Firelok
05-06-2006, 15:12
Thx again JTD :)

Xiola
07-06-2006, 20:33
I like to think I am pretty unbiased, yes I love the Spitfire, but I also love the FW190, 109, 110 etc.

I think the 190A5 is a good idea, its not that much better than the 190A4 and the 190 is hard enough to fly well on UKded2 with the settings as they are.

I guess this is pretty late, and the map is probably finalised, but anyway :)

Firelok
07-06-2006, 20:41
The A5 is present, other changes involve, improving the weather a notch,this has brought back about 15FPS on average when I test and reducing the target numbers for blues(they still have more but they are out in the open, reds problem is some targets are in a little town.)

Firelok
24-06-2006, 02:06
I think it's because it's all really close together, and I must admit because it was my first I didn't have much grasp on what AAA types to put where, M16 halftracks should be cut back in favour of .50cals.
Glad you enjoyed it.

Firelok
24-06-2006, 11:42
I've made some adjustments to the flak objects here it's a lot lighter over the targets, but I've kept it pretty lively over both bases to keep the campers at bay. Will send in another updated soon (hopefully the last :rolleyes: )

Zorin
29-08-2006, 16:33
Could you please place some static aircraft on the runway of the red airfield that is the target for blues. That would prevent reds from landing there to save themselfs the way home, which is prety annoying. Once you spotted them above the targets they switch on their lights and head for the airfield.

Firelok
02-09-2006, 10:23
I've adjusted the locations of objects on this target airfield to make it a little more difficult attempting an emergency landing here; but it can't be discounted, so to make things a little fairer I've moved the front line to make the mountain airfield nearby a 'blue' emergency airfield.

Firelok
12-11-2006, 15:30
Flew this again the other day and I'm not at all happy with it anymore, the bases are far too close together and the idea that the dogfights would develop in a central location between the two was frankly naive on my part. The targets are finally working and I've seen both sides win this map if they've a mind to but usually it descends into base-camping, some deliberate but mostly because, blink and you are over the enemy base. I intend to see if there are suitable bases further back if there aren't any I think this should be ditched. :o