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Boemher
28-04-2006, 13:41
How feasible would it be to make a series of 3 maps. The aim of the maps is to simulate a heavy bomber mission from England to targets in Germany. The concept would be for three seperate maps each one taking over from where the last left off. This would be around 3 hours worth of action to those who chose to participate in the whole event but because of the nature of it being broken in to 3 seperate maps it would offer some respite to those who wanted to finish after one or two.

Map 1

Using existing Channel 42/43 map

Red team
Slots for 10 B17/B24s with airstarts
Slots for 10 P47/P38s taking off from island airbase

Blue team
Slots for 12 Bf109 G6/Fw 190A6
taking off from base/s on the French coast

Objectives

Red team
Bombers have to get altitude and meet up with climbing escort fighters and then travel from their base over to the French coast defended by Luftwaffe fighters until they reach their 1st way point.

Blue team
Luftwaffe fighters have to scramble and try to disrupt the formation of US heavy bombers that are approaching the French coast en route to targets in Germany.


Map 2

Using Normandy map or Ardennes

Red team
Bombers and fighters have airstart and are at the North west grid of the map.
Losses from previous map dont count 10 bombers and 10 escort fighters all with 2000m airstart

Blue Team
Slots for 6 airstart fighters either Bf 110 G2s, Bf 109 G6 or Fw 190 A6
Slots for 6 ground start Bf 109 G6s/Fw 190 A6s


Objectives

Red team Bombers
To travel from North West Grid on map to south East Grid climbing all the way to target and to bomb marked target.

Red Team fighters
Escort heavy bombers and or fly ahead and try and sweep the Bf 110 Zerstorers from the skies before they get the chance to savage the bombers

Map 3

Using Channel 42/42 map again

Red Team
You are on the return leg of bombing mission and have just reached the south east grid on the map. Your task is to return to England (island base) and bomb Caen en route. This time we have the nummerical advantage in fighters as RAF Spitfires come to meet the bombers and help escort them home.

Airstart for 10 slots of B17s/B24s
Airstart for 6 P38/P47s
Ground start for 6 Spitfire IXcs

Blue Team
The American heavy bombers are trying to make it back to base but not all of them have released their bomb loads and we think Caen will be their designated target for their return journey. Try and inflict as many losses on the bomber force as possible!

Airstart for 5 Bf 109G6/Fw 190 A6s
Groundstart for 5 Bf 109G6/Fw 190 A6s

While writing this Ive realised that it may not be possible to have air start external only planes like the B17 this is a pain in the ass because I dont think any one would like having to take off in these buggers and it would also interrupt the sequence having to take off when over Germany ect So the B25 could be substitued in all cases as it is still a good formation bomber

stanford
28-04-2006, 15:38
Without a bombsite the B17 is useless as a level bomber anyway. You'd need to be tight formation with a plane that does have a bombsite to have any chance.

I think the B25 is a better option all round.

Boemher
04-05-2006, 13:30
dont see how or why the Blue team needs any other targets. I dont see this as a shoot the bombers map, I see a scenario that is glaringly lacking in our 100% tactical air battle maps. As for it being a turkey shoot, P 47s and P38s are excellent at altitudes above 3000m certainly better than th eFw 190 A5 and Bf 109 G6.

Incisor
04-05-2006, 14:19
I like the idea of a long rang high alt bomber mission with escort. :)

Are you sure it is not possible to airstart with a B24/B17? Can it not be done when you select a flyable on ground plane first, and then a AI plane?

Hitting the target without bombsight could be a problem but maybe it is possible with a B25 as leading plane (need to be on teamspeak for this). An other solution would be nose down, dive a little and drop. That's how I bomb in Historia and (sometimes) it works. If the target area is made really large you will surely hit something. It requires some experience, though.

By adding the B25 you let people choose what plane/method to take.

I am not sure whether a lot of folks will take a bomber in the first mission as you cant drop on a target, I mean, what happens when you are there and the map is not finished?

Algorex
04-05-2006, 17:38
Those damn siptfires....

I'd be happy to play this mission on either side, but the heavies should be replaced but B25s just because the lack of pits creates a lot of problems, even more so with airstarts. Also this type of scenarion needs lots of space between starting places (clearly proved by the current "shoot the bombers" maps).

LeVola
04-05-2006, 20:06
Sounds good, but I would prefer bomber with cockpit.

Maybe we can do 41/42 map, Bombers on blue side He/Ju/Me
and Spits/ Hurris on red side trying to defend.

stanford
06-05-2006, 17:37
Another thing, the P47 is fantastic above 3000m I agree. Getting it up there is a pig, though!

Firelok
07-05-2006, 13:16
Been tinkering with this idea a bit in FMB. Doing one map and taking onboard the idea of having targets for both sides but airstarting a fair distance from the targets.Maybe post some screenies soon. A big issue is this, what would be an acceptable flight time to target to allow the bombers to gain height and not be too dull and also how many sorties (round trip) to fit into a 60 minute map.
The evolving bomber mission over three maps is a great idea but I think it would have to be a special occaision thing, taking over the server for an afternoon say, a bit like the 'Shoot the Syndicate' events.

Boemher
08-05-2006, 11:53
The idea came when I was trying to go to sleep one night ... how sad I am thinking of IL2 I know ... Id finished playing on the Normandy map, inspired by the antics of the Chuck Norris crew a while back I took the P47 D27 with extra ammo and flew around for 50 minutes it was great fun. Above 5000m It was untouchable and I was diving down on enemies travelling over 1000km/h and it was steady as a rock.

IL2 is a tactical ground attack simulator and all of the maps we have on the rota at the moment follow this requirement. The aircraft for high altitude fights are there but the Idea that we need to have a set of ground targets for both sides restricts their practical use. There are a few very limited maps where you can take a RAF or a USAAF or a Luftwaffe type and fight at 20,000ft plus if you do you meet one maybe two eneimes during the whole duration of the map. Not all air fighting in WW2 occured at low to medium altitudes and definitely not all of it occured for tactical support reasons.

No cockpit for the B17s and B24s is a major hinderance. It is possible to use Mossies and B25's instead, it is also possible to have the Red airbase as a target for German intruders this way if the consensus insists every match up has to have a tactical ground target it could be slipped in this way.

Remember in WW2 fighter vs fighter combat was actively sought after in many scenarios. In the BoB the aim was to destroy Fighter Command, Ruhbarbs and Circuses were to draw Luftwaffe fighters up to their destruction, the USAAF eventually realised in 1944 that shooting down Luftwaffe fighters was as good as bombing ball bearing plants and their factories. Most of these encounters occured at medium to high altitudes Id love a few maps which attempted to recreate so high alt dogfights even if they fail in their objective like ObjectiveSchweinfurt did ( although I dont remember it as a pure itteration of the concept for me it was always a compromised map ). It would be better to have one map out of 60 that has a rough approximation of this and for it to be changed or passed over if people dont like it or arent in the mood than to not have it at all.

Firelok
20-05-2006, 13:54
Ok, taking onboard a lot of the ideas expressed in this thread here's what i propose.
A single mission,
4 widely spaced airstart locations for each side,
flight time to target 5mins at 330kph (B25)
Each side passes over it's defence target to get to it's attack target.
4 high altitude fighter types for each side (plus bonuses)
RED TARGET industrial complex/airfield
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/complexblue.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/complexblue2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/altitudeblue.jpg
cont....

Firelok
20-05-2006, 14:15
continued...
BLUE TARGETS fieldHQ/Airfield
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/fieldHQred2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/fieldHQred.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/altitudered.jpg

Suggested Planes...
blue
Bf-109G-10
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
Bf-109K-4
He-111H-6
Ju-88A-4
Ta-152H-1(bonus)

red
P-63C
P-51D-20NA
P-51D-5NT
P-47D(bubble canopy)
A-20G
B-25J-1NA
TempestMkV(bonus)

I chose fighters for speed and higher alt performance

As for the theatre, late44 would allow Kurland to stand in for the front in border areas Holland/Belgium and Germany, which allows us tactical targets for blue bombers as well as red. I'm a bit lost for a suitable title for this map as it doesn't represent any of the actual famous battles of the area in late44,
e.g. Aachen,Arnhem,Schelt and the advance on the Rhur.
So contructive suggestions about planeset and a title would be most welcome.
:)

Incisor
20-05-2006, 14:31
Target is nice and has good reference points for high alt bombing and nice spread of objects.

Hope that the inclusion of B24/B17 (even non-airstart) next to B25etc is still considered and that the choice is thus left to the pilot. Fully loaded B25 can be difficult to fly at serious altitude.

Might be alone here, but I do like to take those four-engined planes up to considerable altitude, on Tirpitz map for example. Don’t mind the flighttime either.

Boemher
22-05-2006, 14:41
Its looking good, cheers for taking some of the stuff on board Firelok :D I love the look of the targets and also the variety in plane sets.

You could maybe get more mileage out of the basic idea by having a 43 and a 44 version? I for one like to fly a bit of 43 or very early 44 action with the razor back P47D and P51 B or C along with the P38 J or L. No P63s saw service on the Western front IIRC so maybe the Cobra sits it out? For The Luftwaffles Bf 109 G6Late and G14 along with Fw 190 A6. Maybe also the Bf 410 as an airfield interdictor? It is fast as hell and is good fun to fly from externals.

Firelok
22-05-2006, 19:13
Well thanks for the vote of confidence Boehmer :fluffle:
My problem with the 43 idea is this, If there are to be blue ground targets as well as red, where would all this take place?
Late 44 post-normandy allows reds airfields/Hq's etc in striking distance of a blue bomber force without really breaking any 'historical' eggs.
43' might be possible in the italian theatre...

BTW I have added B17's as Incisor suggested, I was a bit shy of this idea as there are the problems caused by process of selecting flyable then AI craft if these are airstarted. I have solved this by adding a little airfield to the south of the airstarts that has the P40M parked. So if you want to fly B17's you can select the P40, hit refly and select a B17 from the airstart. This works and I shall put something in the brief about the airstart proceedure just to keep things clear. Red targets have been beefed up in-line with the inclusion of this powerful Bomber.

BTW2 both airstarts blue/red are protected to some extent by AAA to prevent enemy fighters lingering over the airstarts unmolested.

Zorin
22-05-2006, 19:21
Well, if we would have the Me 410, I'd say ,add it, but as we only have the Me 210, which is inferior to the 110G2, there is no need to add her.

Incisor
22-05-2006, 21:27
Nice work, Firelok, and thanks for adding the B17. Made my day. :) Lets see how people pick up this airstart procedure, it seems a good solution.

Firelok
23-05-2006, 00:43
It's a shame about the P 63, I rather enjoy flying it. As to a suitable replacement
the P-38 L will have to do, we are kind of limited when it comes to USAAF fighters. Could sneak the Kingcobra back in as a bonus rather than Tempest which I'm not totally at ease with.

Algorex
23-05-2006, 09:29
Personally i have a huge problem with Bell planes over the Western Europe. In my mind it equals to license-built FW-190A8s flown by the JAAF. If you dislike the tempest you can always use a Spit HF as a bonus plane (it would be the first time the HF variant is actually used as high alt fighter).

Zorin
23-05-2006, 10:34
Murmansk is 73k JtD and it doesn't take that long to load. This sieze arises from the fact that both airfields are handmade, which has its effect on the object count.

Seeing what is on the map here, I'd say it is around 30k.

Firelok
23-05-2006, 18:38
This is good to know JtD, There are a lot of objects that are present just for prettiness that have no bearing on the mission as a whole. It's currently 63k, I shall post the adjusted size presently.

Firelok
23-05-2006, 19:03
Ok, removed some nice barracks and fences, fake tanks and aircraft and other such things size is now 43k.

Firelok
24-05-2006, 18:37
I think perhaps a large part of the satisfaction of map making is this small scale detailing. Obviously it can't interfere with the smooth running of a map when it's finally made if you've overdone it, but I admit to having placed the pilot's barracks at an airfield and then carefully placed the latrines around the back. 99% of people won't notice these things zooming past at 420kph but they are there. After studying other peoples maps and their pics here on the forums I don't think I'm alone in the delight of these small scale details. :)

I'm assuming that 'destruction level' effects the size of the .mis file too is this correct?

NS-IceFire
24-05-2006, 22:49
I think perhaps a large part of the satisfaction of map making is this small scale detailing. Obviously it can't interfere with the smooth running of a map when it's finally made if you've overdone it, but I admit to having placed the pilot's barracks at an airfield and then carefully placed the latrines around the back. 99% of people won't notice these things zooming past at 420kph but they are there. After studying other peoples maps and their pics here on the forums I don't think I'm alone in the delight of these small scale details. :)

I'm assuming that 'destruction level' effects the size of the .mis file too is this correct?
I love those little details. People don't "notice" them but your brain takes in alot of information that your consciousness doesn't receive (your brain does a huge amount of filtering of everything that you sense) and I believe these things have an overall effect on an airbase even when flying past it at rapid speed.

The worst part about bases with no detail to them is you have very few visual aids when you try and land. A couple of hangers or a bunch of tents and a observation tower are huge in helping someone land, takeoff, get their bearings...nevermind the visual impact. My crusade to make missions look good as well as play well :)

Gordano
24-05-2006, 23:54
I handle a little longer loading time for some nice eye candy :)

Firelok
25-05-2006, 00:56
bombable eyecandy what could be better, talking of candy....
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/seaside1.jpg

Shhh.... ;)

stanford
26-05-2006, 01:21
Bloody hell that's Brighton! I'd bomb that!

Firelok
26-05-2006, 21:33
Yep, I've put the cliffs in an a golf course since then.
Hated the pitch an putt?
Sand in your ice cream?
bitten by the donkeys on the beach?
Get yer own back in a 109E! ;)

Xiola
07-06-2006, 20:16
Is this the map we played breifly the other afternoon but the server crashed?

If so I must sayits looking great, I was savouring running into the LW in my P51 escorting bombers from the air start, only to have the server crash :(

Cant wait to try it again.