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View Full Version : The Libau raid, Kurland map, autumn 1944



Zorin
16-05-2006, 16:45
I'm pretty busy right now, so I'll only give you the plane set as I don't have anything real to show you yet. But you can expect that you'll find real regiments with the correct numberes of cars, tanks, AAA and what so ever on this map. That will be, to give you an exmple, 12x 20mm 38 AAA representing a light flak battery.

Blue:

Bf 109 G6 late (no limit)
Bf 109 G10 (25)
Fw 190 A6 (25)
Fw 190 A9 (25)
Fw 190 F8 (15)
Do 335 (15)
Ju 87 D5 (no limit)
Ju 87 G (15)
Ju 88 (no limit)

Red:

Yak 9D (no limit)
Yak 9M (20)
Yak 9U (20)
Yak 9T (25)
Yak 3 (25)
P39 Q10 (20)
Pe2 359 (no limit)
Pe3bis (no limit)
IL2T (15)

Zorin
16-05-2006, 19:25
10 views, no complains about the planes, guess I made the right decisions.

stanford
16-05-2006, 19:54
My only thought was the D9 - was that present?

Zorin
16-05-2006, 21:22
Well, I really appreciate your input JtD. :)

1. It seams my plane counts and set are petty mutch acceptable. The 109 is in for all those players who can't work the Fw.

2. I chose the G2 cause it is a good match-up for the Yaks, P39 and the Pe2s. So if you run out of the better planes, you are not completely lost. And it is more maneuverable than a G6 late, whichs only advantage is the better armament.

3. Should I take the La7 out without a substitute or change it into the La5FN?

4. The Il-2T will be limited too.

5. AAA, well, you'll always find more than 4 AAA guns at my airfields and target positions and noone has complained about any "bad framerate, lags, freezes or whatever".

6. What were the other maps like, so I can avoid failures that were made?

Boemher
18-05-2006, 15:36
With no Fw 190 A6 in the planeset it will be a very unfavourable map for Blues. There are few people who do well in the F8 and A8 against La7s and Yak9Us. Infact If I had a choice to fly on either side of the origional plane set I would chose G2 and never descend below 4000m or I would fly P39 Q10 because its a good energy fighter.

Zorin
18-05-2006, 17:25
Thanks for taking time to give me some feedback Boemher :)

As you may know, I'm not that knowledgable about the Fw and if you say she should be in then I have no objections against puting the A6 on the list.

Any other ideas guys?

Algorex
18-05-2006, 19:09
But you can expect that you'll find real regiments with the correct numberes of cars, tanks, AAA and what so ever on this map. That will be, to give you an exmple, 12x 20mm 38 AAA representing a light flak battery.

So can we expect a real life like situation where map is full of potential targets but the briefings only specifies a few of them that recon planes have spotted.
And fighters on both sides have to free hunt or fly barrier missions near the border to spot the bombers. (This is a jabo pilot's wet dream, hit and run attacks on tree top high)

Oh yeah Ju-87Gs where most probably present.

Zorin
18-05-2006, 21:31
Well, yeah, but I don't know if the majority will like that. For example, a light tank unit is planned to be scattered around in a village, hidding behind buildings and so on. So this won't be a "drop two 2000kg bombs and here you have finished half the ground targets" mission.

So there will be main tasks to be performed. Sink german ships in the Libau harbor(red) and destroy a russian airfiled(blue).

Firelok
19-05-2006, 02:56
I was interested in the ferocity of the 12x20mm Flak batteries and decided to do a little experiment.
12 flak spaced around an airfield- attacking 4 IL2 (500m)320kph (this seemed a reasonable amount of aircraft at one time, more than 4 IL2s flying together is rare on our servers)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/flak.jpg
me and the AI (veterans) killed two AA and were all killed within 30 seconds of arriving.
FPS dropped a lot.
Perhaps four or six 'active' 20mm flak batteries out of the 12 might be a good number to go for. What numbers of Flak88's is excessive I don't know.
I've been working away at the ideas in Boehmers P47 thread and needed a heavily defended complex as a target.There are 4 dugouts each with 4 88m and 1 20mm.So 4x20mm, 16x88mm :eek:
After test flights I put two 'dud' 88mm in each dugout. (4x20mm)(8x88mm)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/flaklayout.jpg
which is scary enough but not instantly lethal. Big problem with this...
It's on KurlandOnline, Doh. *sound of forehead being slapped.

Zorin
19-05-2006, 14:03
This is a regular airfield defence Flakbattery (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Flakbatterie.jpg)

There are three of these batterys with different configurations. 1. 2x 20mm 38 and 1x 88mm. 2. 2x 20mm 30 and 1x 37mm 37 3. 2x 37mm 37 and 1x 20mm 30.

That should guarantee that there will be no camping above the enemy base.

Made two passes with an A20 at 1500m and 350m and suffered only two fuel leaks. On the third I was shot to pieces, but who would be that stupid to stay so long inthe AAA range. And when there are more enemy planes the whole AAA fire won'T be focused on only one plane.

Nightshifter
19-05-2006, 15:11
Sounds fun - looking forward to giving it a try :)

Firelok
19-05-2006, 18:52
but who would be that stupid to stay so long inthe AAA range.
^^^could be quite a big list^^^^
;)
Should liven up Daytraders solo 'bomb the enemy base' flights, eh?

Zorin
20-05-2006, 02:10
I agree that the new third party maps have some flaws in regard to online play or at least dogfight missions, simply because they refer to actual airfileds and those were not that close together, but I try my best to keep routes as short as possible.
Just take a look at Murmansk and you'll see what I mean: Building the airfileds by hand was the only way to get things working, but I won't do that again, as it caused quite some trouble during the process of mapbuilding.

To refer to your, IMO, not constructive criticism about the tank units, they will be just a giveaway for the Jabo fans.

Firelok
20-05-2006, 02:50
Not sure what the two Kurland maps where called, any idea?
The winter one was good,
But some of the flight times to target (particularly for red) were very long on the other(Autumn?) one.

Algorex
20-05-2006, 09:00
The kurland maps we have are called kurland (winter map with long distances) and kurland44 (summer one which blues have never won). The Kurland maps are excellent examples of decent maps which suffer greatly from people not reading the briefs.

Zorin
22-05-2006, 17:22
Changed the plane set in the first post in consideration of balancing out the sides. Now, every side has a set of equal planes, which should guarantee for some nice dogfights.

Firelok
22-05-2006, 18:55
Could we have a standard IL2 ground attack plane present, or will this throw the map balance into chaos?
The IL2 type3 rather than the 'tank munching' IL2 Type3M would be good.

Zorin
22-05-2006, 19:09
Giving that the mission is still in development I will add it to the list and we'll have to see how things develop.

Will a Wirbelwind be able to take out a ground attacking IL2 on its own?

Firelok
23-05-2006, 00:50
Objective Oder, I think, has a road full of tanks and APC's defended by Wirbelwinds, experiences of this suggest just one can wreck an IL2.

Zorin
23-05-2006, 10:36
Good to know, thanks Fire. And as I heard the Maultier with Flak is pretty leathel too, right? We'll have to see how the new flak truck on the russian side performs.

Firelok
24-05-2006, 19:25
New russian Flak trucks are 25mm light flak, (you guessed it), on a truck. :)
exactly the same but probably easier to shoot than static model.
As for the 4x7.62mm truck and the static version, pretty but 25mm probably better defence. (The original 7.62mm AA was said to cause lag due to it's high rate of fire, multiply that by four? and it seems to scatter more, still not that dangerous.)
76mm flak seems very similar to the 85mm flak (even the models are very close) fire rate seem damn close,( presumably maximum range is different and damage if it hits but I've not experimented with this.)
The 37mm light flak is the biggest difference really, definitely more dangerous if you get hit, fire rate is similar overall to 25mm but happens in short bursts (with a pause as they change mags or whatever.)
A lend/lease M16 probably the closest thing to a Wirbelwind the reds have got on the AAA front.

Zorin
25-05-2006, 18:50
Thnaks for the info Fire. That'll help a lot for seting up the flak batteries on the russian side :)

Now the first screen, I hope you like it, still a WIP, but it is coming along. In the background you can see the big radar tower.

U-Boot Bunker (http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/u-boatbunker1.jpg)

Firelok
25-05-2006, 19:52
I like it :)
theres a definate pleasure to be had fitting together objects that aren't related and making something new and useful. Almost essential as most of the object list is filled with useless bits of Leningrad and palaces and such. :rolleyes:

Zorin
26-05-2006, 19:13
Agreed, when things start to blend in with the environment you place them in you are on the right way. And I hope that accounts for my u-boat bunker aswell.

Updated the above pic to show the finished version. :)

Zorin
27-05-2006, 03:49
Take a look at the http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Libau.jpg. http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Libau-recon.jpg.
We have a shipyard, flying boats terminal, u-boat bunker and docks. Anything missing?

Firelok
27-05-2006, 14:20
Mate it's all there, apart from seagulls ;)
Recon shot is excellent.

Daytrader
27-05-2006, 14:20
looks great m8 is that black and white recon picture a actuall real photo ?

Zorin
27-05-2006, 14:59
looks great m8 is that black and white recon picture a actuall real photo ?

No, it's only a photoshoped in-game shot ;)

The only thing left, for the harbor area, is the finish of the radar facilitys in the background.

Zorin
28-05-2006, 15:34
Now I want YOUR ideas for the blue targets. Make up ypur mind and tell me what would be a reasonable target. Field HQ, airfield, whatever..just tell me.

Daytrader
28-05-2006, 15:40
i think more maps need airfields as targets tbh ;)

Zorin
28-05-2006, 19:22
i think more maps need airfields as targets tbh ;)

Why did I know you would say that? :rolleyes: ;)

Hm, but as we have so few airfields on the Kurland map it would have to be all hand build. JtD will kill me for the file size ;) 68k as of now.

Firelok
29-05-2006, 15:07
If the Russians have a field army here, 3 or 4 long-range artillery batteries would make good long range 'soft' targets( i.e. one bombload and they're gone.)
And a tank regiment HQ would be good for a 'harder' Jabo short range target.

Zorin
29-05-2006, 15:21
If the Russians have a field army here, 3 or 4 long-range artillery batteries would make good long range 'soft' targets( i.e. one bombload and they're gone.)
And a tank regiment HQ would be good for a 'harder' Jabo short range target.

Like on the Bocage map? Sounds good, won't need lots of objects and yet being pretty effective. Good idea Fire.

Zorin
30-05-2006, 15:25
Btw, would anyone be interested in exploring the map, so that it would make sense to put some uncredited targets around or not?

Zorin
30-05-2006, 17:05
Finished the german airports and ground targets, red airfield and ini file left to do.

Zorin
30-05-2006, 19:47
Finishede the building process, only the ini file is left. 103kb, pretty mutch overkill, I know, but that is what you need for quality ;) Sicily will be a smaller mission, promised.

http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Airport.jpg

Daytrader
30-05-2006, 21:42
very nice m8

Zorin
01-06-2006, 19:06
Ty mate :)

A last question before release. Will you accept a harbour defence containing of:

3x 37mm, 2x20mm 30, 2x20mm 37 and 1x 88mm?

The airdefence for the red artillery is:

1x 76mm, 2x37mm, 2x Zis AA, 1x 25mm, 1x Maxim 4x7,62mm

Both setups have been tested and if you fly right you will get out without severe damage.

Firelok
01-06-2006, 19:34
103k!! :eek: :rolleyes: :D
Port defences are quite lively. What about the ships/landing craft/subs are these 'asleep' or very high ROF 30+ numbers.(with 0.5 the fastest ROF)

Zorin
01-06-2006, 19:37
All ships are set asleep Fire, so don't worry ;)

Zorin
02-06-2006, 17:02
Ini file is complete and al files have been send to JtD. If he is fast, we can play it tonight :)

Firelok
04-06-2006, 12:10
It is lovely, I had a look just now when the server was empty. Frame rate does drop over the harbour but we need to see it in action with a full-ish server.If we have problems with it I think there are a few changes could be made to get some frame-rate back without compromising it's beauty at all.
For example I've found that with the Apennines43 map on the notoriously laggy OnlineMountains, I got the best part of 10FPS 'back' by improving the weather.
p.s. Good to see the Do335 take part in a map :)

Zorin
04-06-2006, 15:11
We can change the weather to good instead of bad, even if we lose quite some atmosphere by doing it, IMO. And as the game messed up the airstart, which worked fine when I tested and send it to you, I'll take a look at that and the harbour and reduce the amount of some details. Maybe I can get the file size below 100k...

Btw, does anyone know how many planes are supported by an airfield? If there is no limit I'll delete the airstart and move the Pe2s to the red airfield.

Firelok
04-06-2006, 15:55
Drag that airfield radius as big as it will go I'm sure it will support enough Pe2's. the likelyhood of an maximum sized (even sided) red team flying 18 Pe2's is pretty small, I think.

As for editing the harbour, how much would you get just by removing the outer harbour mole? However accurate it is, Perhaps it's better to keep the details of the inner harbour intact at the expense of the moles.

Zorin
04-06-2006, 16:00
The outer moles are part of the map and so impossible to remove.

Zorin
04-06-2006, 16:07
Size is down to 98k, guess that is the best I can do.

Zorin
12-06-2006, 03:01
Ok, after a discussion with Ice and Boemher, I have some changes for this mission. The Yak9U will be included for the reds and the percentage of targets reds have to destroy has been reduced to 25%.

NS-IceFire
12-06-2006, 03:53
Just to voice my concerns (and my apologies for not voicing this earlier)...Red's planeset is unable to defeat any concerted Do-335 offensive. That is to say that Do-335s, flown by semi-experienced or experienced pilots, in strictly the bomber role are nearly immune from interception. The Yak-3 is not nearly fast enough and cannot dive to attack either as the Do-335 can fly nearly level or in a slight dive at similar speeds where the Yak-3 sheds control surfaces. The P-39Q-10 just doesn't have enough overtake...even in a dive to catch one either.

The long and short is that Blue has an offensive target destroying and mission winning aircraft that Red team has little it can do about. Even a co-ordinated defense of the area is not going to yeild much in the way of interceptions. They would pretty much have to be vulched to ensure any sort of reliable interception. The map is otherwise excellent...good targets and I love the attention to detail but the balance in terms of aircraft is not good.

Yak-9U was one suggestion, however, having looked at the IL2 Compare speed graphs...the P-63C may be the better choice as its faster in a dive, faster at level speed, more manueverable at speed and best of all its historically matched to the Kurland area during the latter half of 1944. Interesting historical note...P-63's served unofficially in this area as they were all meant to fly against the Japanese...the reason the Americans gave them P-63s in the first place was for this sole purpose. So while all official documents list the GvIAPs with flying P-39s...they were sometimes equipped with P-63s.

So I would potentially add the P-63. Its not likely to destabilize the balance either as the Yak-3 is still the better dogfighter and the P-63 isn't that hard to down with a FW190A-8 or Bf109G.

This would be my suggestion and critique.

Zorin
12-06-2006, 16:49
I've send the files with the Yak 9U to JtD. Mayb she is sufficient to give reds a better chance to catch the Do.

NS-IceFire
13-06-2006, 01:56
P-63 would be better for every reason as outlined above. Simple change in the config.

Zorin
13-06-2006, 03:40
hm, maybe JtD can change the ini and mission file to chnage the 9U into the P63. But they will be limited to15 planes, like the Do335. Just to emphasize on its special role.

Yellow 2
13-06-2006, 10:44
Played the map last night for the second time and had fun chasing Nearsighted's Dornier at over 20,000 feet in a Yak9U. The killer for me is the port area where flying over the town reduces my frame rate considerably, even so it is still a very enjoyable map.

Cheers :)

Boemher
13-06-2006, 14:43
Any chance of 2 flyable Fw 190 D9 44s (one for me and one back spare)so I can roam around shooting P63s? :D I could be part of the RLM operational evaluation unit for the Fw.

NS-IceFire
13-06-2006, 22:02
Any chance of 2 flyable Fw 190 D9 44s (one for me and one back spare)so I can roam around shooting P63s? :D I could be part of the RLM operational evaluation unit for the Fw.
Can I be part of the RAF operational evaluation unit for the Tempest in a secluded airbase with a cantina...and oh...I want a pony....

Sorry! :p

Zorin
15-06-2006, 15:34
Some changes, again.
1.The red team has to destroy 12 targets in the Libau harbour to win the mission.
2.The red tanks in Durben have been downgraded to be easier to kill, IS-2s were kinda tough ;)
3. The blue fighter airfield got a new 37mm replacing an 20mm30 and the skill for the S-80 AAA has been changed to veteran.
4. The 20mm Kfz 10 has been changed to a 37mm Kfz 6 and one Maultier changed to a Wirbelwind at the bomber airfield. I hope that'll stop red fighters to catch blues right after take off.

Firelok
16-06-2006, 12:11
I think that because it's near the route to red targets they'll always be red fighters near the airfields.When we get used to flying this map a regular hunting ground for blue fighters will be over their own airfields that should make reds step back too :)

Zorin
16-06-2006, 15:06
Any ideas on how to imrpove that JtD?

Firelok
05-07-2006, 02:33
Blue fighters have entirely unlimited loadouts, several times tonight I was bounced straight off the airstarts by MK108 carrying fighters. The Pe2 isn't the most survivable aircraft, hardly seems fair to be shooting at them with 108s. Probably still get bounced over the airstarts as there is no decent flak here discouraging the lurking fighters. I would also like to see the area of the map that counts as red territory expanded seeing as there are so many folks bailing.
However these criticisms aside Reds did manage to win tonight mostly using IL2s flying at very low level unnoticed by the Pe2 hunting Lufties.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 11:40
No problem to add more flak at the airstart, but the Bf109G10 has a MK108 as standard fit which can't be restricted. But I can take a look at the gondolas, if that is what you want.

Firelok
15-07-2006, 12:07
Although I didn't alter any Flak or anything like that Zorin. When I came to updating Libau for the current cycle, I attended to the gunpods for blues issue. I assumed I'd got an early version of the map and that the omission of restricting these 'pods was an oversight. As you say there are Mk108's here as default weapons, in general there are no maps with 108 gunpods anymore. Although one or two may have them as an added thrill or relish, this applies to the restriction on VVS rocket armed fighters too.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 12:13
Ok, so you have restricted them already, maybe you could start a thread with these restictions, so we have a resource for further maps which we could relate to when it comes to setting up the planes in the ini file. That should save us a lot of work in the future.

Firelok
15-07-2006, 12:43
The labourious job of extracting all the correct names of restricted loadouts via the log file can be sidestepped by the way. Part of the help files for Server Commander give a complete list of all planes with all their potential loadouts :)
As for Mk108 pods a simple rule might be, 'never let them in your map.' It's either that or get bored to tears by people moaning about them over the chat :rolleyes:
I made the available on the Berlin map though as blues are seriously outclassed by the performance of those late-war La's and Yak's. They were present on the Dortmund map to begin with but imbalanced the play I thought so I restricted them.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 15:58
Libau is just on and I saw that the second target for BLUES in I19 is not in the brief and there is a typo in the history, Kreigsmarine instead of Kriegsmarine. ;)

Firelok
21-07-2006, 13:38
Targets and typos corrected, I've also removed the unnecessary plane limits on most of the aircraft. As I discovered you don't need to specify a plane limit to limit weaponry.e.g. Bf-109G-6_Late=U3-MK108;R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
The FW-A9 had Mk103s locked but not Mk108s I have reversed this.

I still think this map suffers from gross object overload in the harbour of Libau, dogfights are impossible here and accurate dive-bombing is very difficult with FPS drops to single figures.
I think the harbour of Libau is one of the best looking objectives we have on any map but it's primary function as a target is marred by over-complication.
For example.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/libau1.jpg
All these fences and the gateway etc amount to 29-30 objects in an area that isn't really the focus.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/libau2.jpg
I'm sure that a similar fuel terminal could be recreated with less objects.

To conclude more people are going to have a better close in view of your creation if you make is more 'accessable' by lowering the object count hence increasing the FPS, I would look upon it as a 'design constraint'. I've had to deal with these problems too on the Dortmund map and Hastings and the final results after trimming haven't compromised my original concept but have made them more user freindly.

Zorin
21-07-2006, 14:30
I stripped the harbour down from 98kb to 85kb. That is about all I'm willing to do before even the last bits of quality are lost.

Xiola
29-07-2006, 14:43
I played this map from the Blue side last night and really enjoyed it.

I like the few Do335's and thought why not take the idea a bit further.

Maybe add 8 or so Me262 to the Blue side and a few La7 to the red?

I really dont like flying red on the map, I dont particularly like any of the planes in the red planeset, I think maybe 10 La7 B20 and 15 La7 'normal' would be cool versus maybe 10 Do335 and 10 Me262.

The fun of the map comes from the addition of the few dorniers for me, once they are gone, its not so much fun. So I think taking this idea further and having more 'exotic' planes' would make this a classic enjoyable map.

I said La7 for the red cos it competes well with the Me262 and Dornier, but mayby a few i185 or so too would be cool? I am trying to think of some exotic, fun to fly, rarely used Red planes, but I cant think of any, help me out guys. (much like the Dornier and Me262 but for the red side)

This would make the map very different and totally fun too play. A map where the first thing you think is 'Cool! we never fly the the Do335/Me262/La7/i185 this is one map where we can!!!'

I already think that whe I pick the Dornier, but there arent many and thats only for blue side. I think take the idea further and add more cool, unused planes.

Tell me what you guys think. I think one map where gameplay over historical accuracy is not too much and would add variety. :) And its not THAT far from accurate, maybe just the i185.

Zorin
31-07-2006, 23:26
Noone who likes to comment on Xi's ideas? I for myself would like to wait for the general responce before I'll give my 2 cents, so fire away your comments, please.

Firelok
01-08-2006, 00:09
More Do335s offset by adding the La5FN and maybe even the La7 seems good to me, Lots of the Do335's get used as a BnZ machine here rather than for bombing. As for the Me262a it's on the Berlin map in extremely limited numbers We don't have a map with the Me-262 A-1a/U4 with the enormous cannon or the sturmvogel Me-262. The Do335's on Libau are a unique feature and Xoila may well be right in bringing them to the forefront by increasing their numbers and adding a counter for reds.
For my part I'd like to see another type of IL2 added here so Reds can get stuck into Libau harbour at close range with bombs and rockets. :)

Yellow 2
01-08-2006, 10:58
I'd go along with Xiola's idea about the plane set just to be able to fly the i185. On a map where its opponents would include the Dornier and the Me262 it can't be called too 'uber'.

Cheers :)

Algorex
01-08-2006, 17:59
One idea that i've been toying around is movin the airbases. Blue airbases are so close to the targets that they add to the lag with their objectives and AAA and the extensive AAA is only needed to keep out the enemies that are heading to the target area moving the bases would solve both of these problems. Red airbase and airstart locations are inside the blue territory, why not move them to the south of the border, so the front lines would look a bit more realistic.

Regarding the La-5/7s, La-5FNs were extensively used against the Kurland encirclement as a stantard front line fighter. La-7s were generally used as jabo interceptors, so they'd be perfect to hunt down do-335s.

In the eastern front one wonderweapon is enought, so either do-335 or the me-262, since both dominate the skies there, on the western front we have tempests, spit 25lbs and ponies to hunt them down, so they are somewhat a lesser problem balancewise.

Zorin
01-08-2006, 18:25
Algore, the airfields are the best solution I could find on the whole Kurland map. It ain't no dogfight map, so there are no airfields in every second grid.

NS-IceFire
01-08-2006, 22:00
Zorin...you should definately consider doing some single player scenarios with the level of detail that you try and pack in. You have a fantastic flair for putting these things together but MP is definately restrictive of that.

Firelok
05-09-2006, 03:43
Played this and it bugged me again :mad:
Red are getting stuffed here, fly blues and have fun as Xiola says.
There are nine missions of this backed up on current IL2SCstats, one no-one flew, the others make interesting reading.

red's kills.
fighters bombers
15-------1
13-------9
2--------0
0--------0
7--------4
13-------0
13-------1
15-------9
12-------3
___________
90-------27 =117

blue kill's
fighters bombers
12------17
5-------12
0--------3
0--------0
19------12
3-------23
8-------10
20------11
10------10
____________
77------98 =175

Red's have won this twice, hell knows how. The Do335 get's used as a poor-man's Me262 exclusively; blues don't even try to bomb with them.
80% of the active map is blue territory (very fair.) The harbour is still flak-evil and laggy. But the blues targets have evil PK level flak too so that's OK.

Let's make things a little fairer here Huh? If the Do335 is in then put an La7 in too. :wall:
Next time I'm flyin blue.

NS-IceFire
05-09-2006, 03:52
Honestly...the last three times I've flown this as red its murder. A La-7 and a P-63 (which was actually used completely historically in this theater) along with a proper frontline for red is a must at this point. Its slaughter...

Zorin
05-09-2006, 17:53
The general frontline, except the bit where the reds spawn, is historically correct, but I can change that for reasons of fairness.

But as I planned this map to be La free I'd only like to add the P63.

Firelok
05-09-2006, 19:30
The general frontline, except the bit where the reds spawn, is historically correct, but I can change that for reasons of fairness.

But as I planned this map to be La free I'd only like to add the P63.
Planned not to have La's, like planning not to have 109's for blues, ridiculous.
Historically correct to have the Do335 too??

Zorin
05-09-2006, 19:44
Excuse me for being a non-conformist.

Of course, we should have every eastern map equipped with La5s and La7s beginning with 1942. How stupid I am at times... :rolleyes:

Algorex
05-09-2006, 19:58
No OPLAN ever survives initial contact.

Zorin
05-09-2006, 20:25
No OPLAN ever survives initial contact.

So there is no way to avoid Las?

And what will be next, no Ar234 on a late 44 map?

Gordano
05-09-2006, 21:00
Surely we should take into account that the Soviets were winning the war at this point in time and it would be more than logical for them to fielding some of their better fighter aircraft?

I have to say flying red (in particular ground attack) on this map is pretty boring and very disapointing. The map was intially sucessful simply due to the Pe2 being included, but now it seems to have become less and less popular.

As a red ground attack pilot you are left with very little tactical choice as to how you attack. It is either over the sea, over the enemy base or spend a stupidly long amount of time flying a circutious route around all the enemy bases etc. only to be shot down by AAA over the target.

If the reds had the LA7 they could, a) provide a decent escort for the bombers and b) put pressure on the blues keeping them away from the target area.

Considering the amount of effort you've put into the map, it would be a great shame to see it constantly being voted off by players on the server.

stanford
05-09-2006, 21:03
In the end Zorin the maps stats speak for themselves. Reds are getting totally owned every time its played. Perhaps if you flew red once in a while you'd notice this :P

What's the harm in adding planes that were actually there? Unless of course you want it to be totally one sided to blue.

Zorin
05-09-2006, 21:18
I fly red, for christ sake. But I prefer blue, there are several like me, Boemher prefers blue aswell, nobody is pointing that out to him every time the opportunity arises. Why is that?

And I try to take on this map building thing like an artist, trying to create non mainstream G2 vs La5 missions on underrepresented maps. That takes a hell lot of more time to do. Murmansk has all airfields handbuild. Libau has a real harbour etc. etc.

That blue bombers need to travel 3 grids to their target and encounter more AAA than the reds at the harbour, where they only need to destroy 12 ships which is easier than destroying late war russian tanks, doesn'T matter at all right?

But as mainstream is the way to go: Fire, please add the P63, La7 and La5FN.

stanford
05-09-2006, 21:25
Sorry Zorin I didn't mean to offend you, was just kidding around.

I respect the work you do, I really do. When something doesn't work, however, it needs to be altered - that's all. It's not a personal attack against your map making skills - your maps are some of the best made I've seen. There are just a number of points that have been made that can help improve this one for the majority of players (Fireloks suggestion to minimise the harbour, for example).

Reds are just getting a pounding on this, even if you didn't design it that way.

Zorin
05-09-2006, 21:30
Sorry stanford, I didn't mean to be harsh, I'm just annoy that poeple always point out that I would be blue biased.

And the harbour has already been reduced in detail. Still impossible to fly above the harbour?

System-M-
05-09-2006, 21:34
That blue bombers need to travel 3 grids to their target and encounter more AAA than the reds at the harbour, where they only need to destroy 12 ships which is easier than destroying late war russian tanks, doesn'T matter at all right?



Main Blue bomber ends up as D0335 it carries a 1000kg bomb when u can do 280mph laden 3 grids is nothing, a Pe2 does 180-200mph at max laden and it has alot of space to cover. After its dropped it then goes off Pe2 hunting.

I was flying last night with the others in Pe2's We had 5 of us all in formation to try and use a collective gunpower. it does not mater 1 FW with a sweep of guns wipes you all out. I resorted to a P-39 to Deal with the FW's the minute i would fire id end up with a do taking snap shots and with his guns it takes you wing clean off.

I have flown both sides and Blue is by far easier.

Zorin
05-09-2006, 22:29
With P63s, La5s and La7s on the red side, chances should be 50/50 to win, or even swap to red.

So lets test it.

NS-IceFire
05-09-2006, 22:32
And the harbour has already been reduced in detail. Still impossible to fly above the harbour?
In terms of frame rate or defenses?

Frame rate is a killer over Libau and its definately not your fault. Your extra objects make it a bit worse but its bad already from the start. I'm not sure if there is a solution to that or not. To be honest I would say just leave it as is or totally redesign because I don't think there's a halfway point here. The target is beautiful and I think on its own it'd be fine...but the city chews up any frame rate that you'd have so the target just becomes an extra nightmare with flak, lag, and fighters. Again...its not really your fault...just the way that the target area and city interact on the graphics cards.

As far as bombers go...the Do-335s can make it to target and back without being intercepted by red fighters. I've tested this on several occasions on both sides...flying the Do-335 you can ignore red basically. There's still no P-63 which will help if you add it. The P-39Q-10 and the Yak-3 cannot outpace the Do-335...even in a shallow dive. The Do-335 has too much of a speed advantage (which is correct for the Do-335). I even like flying the plane but Red has no suitable counters...which would come from the fastest of the Russian planes which are the Yak-9U, P-63C, and La-7...none of which are present. The Yak-3 is a dangerous dogfighter but not a good interceptor because its too slow and falls apart easily in the dive.

The Pe-2s are totally torn up trying to attack the harbour unfortunately. FW190's make fantastic interceptors as do the Do-335s. So a formation of 5 or 6 of us will get chewn up and destroyed very easily...the solution I found was to fly at 4000m and HOPE...that the fighters have been dragged down.

Not once did I return to base with my Pe-2 intact. Every single time I was savaged by FW190s.

Intention or not...this map is definatly in blues pocket. Flying blue its a nice enjoyable map...flying red is an exhausting and frustrating experience if you want to try and achieve the objective. Its not totally out of reach...but Blue has to be sleeping for about 15 minutes while two or three sorties of Pe-2s bomb the crap out of the target area.

I think the map needs work. But I love the concept...this one and the other one on the Kurland map (with the heavy bombers) influenced me to make the Kyushu map that I did that is now running on the server. These two gave me some great ideas (I think you did them both?) and I'm very pleased with the end result for that one...so I think the concept is sound but some work needs to be done for balance.

Just my 0.02 cents.

Zorin
05-09-2006, 22:48
Thanks for the critic Icefire. Much appreciated.

So the Yak 9U is present already, but well, never mind. It's no La, I understand that.

The mission is not suitable for a dogfight server, I've learned that by now. You can't make any interesting target areas without causing lag, so one would assume that a good map would result out of a unique plane set, tried that with Murmansk, failed aswell. So I have only one simple question: What do you want? I really can't tell.

stanford
06-09-2006, 00:08
You can do wonderful things for coop maps - and if this coop server thing goes through, I'd hope you'd be willing to lend your skills to that project in the same way you have with the dogfight servers.

Firelok
06-09-2006, 00:24
The mission is not suitable for a dogfight server, I've learned that by now.
Not true but it needs altering to make it sing, which undoubtedly it does for blues,I know that even with La7 added I'm still going to get attacked going for the harbour,I'd just like fighter cover that works if we organise an attack not one that's hopelessly outclassed. If red's don't organise attacks they are going to pay whatever fighters are around.


You can't make any interesting target areas without causing lag,
This doesn't make me want to stop attacking Libau harbour but to minimise it is a design aim in itself, aimed at maximising playability.


so one would assume that a good map would result out of a unique plane set, tried that with Murmansk, failed aswell.
Murmansk produces some good dogfighting, I think.(and I've enjoyed attacking both sides targets.) One side here is clearly not as enjoyable as the other which I think is fixable, unfortunately by adding a plane you don't like.
If the addition of this really wrecks things we can take it out.

Like I've said I've had great fun here as blues; would really like to have more fun here as reds (who have a much tastier target in the harbour.)

Zorin
06-09-2006, 00:38
Not true but it needs altering to make it sing

Than say what needs to be altered. There is no point in four pages of "it needs fixing" without pointing out exactly what to fix.


This doesn't make me want to stop attacking Libau harbour but to minimise it is a design aim in itself, aimed at maximising playability.

Already minimised the object count. Deleted 13k if you remember. I don't know what to delet without loosing any vital parts now.


If the addition of this really wrecks things we can take it out.

Take a look at the first page and the post by JtD.

Reds got all planes that were there except the La5FN. We should add that. There were only 20 La7 so that would make no sense. As we have the Do limited for blues we should add the P63 as an unlimited special for reds.

So add the La5FN and P63.

Algorex
06-09-2006, 01:18
I'm going to stick my neck out on this but,

Problem with this map is the Do-335 as it's just too fast and well armed, like a Fw-190F on speed. That is exactly why so few german wonder weapons were used against russians, the current stuff was sufficent (even to that extent that the la-7 was reserved to be used as a fw jabo interceptor and the frontline stuff was left to la-5fn) and the good stuff was needed against the ponies and noobfires (remagen, wink wink nudge nudge).

Granted that without the do-335 half of maps uniqueness will be lost as it would be just another late eastern front mission, well made one but anywhoo.

As the map is now i have no trouble attacking the targets in a fw-190A9 and a bomb and as the do-335 is the fw on speed... well you get the picture.

Gordano
06-09-2006, 11:40
Would it be possible to move the Do335's to a different base further away, so the increased flight time would limit the number appearing over the target area and stop them from saturating it.

Also the increased flight time may make people value the plane a little more and not try and use it so much as a fighter?

Boemher
06-09-2006, 12:55
Surely we should take into account that the Soviets were winning the war at this point in time and it would be more than logical for them to fielding some of their better fighter aircraft?

I have to say flying red (in particular ground attack) on this map is pretty boring and very disapointing. The map was intially sucessful simply due to the Pe2 being included, but now it seems to have become less and less popular.

As a red ground attack pilot you are left with very little tactical choice as to how you attack. It is either over the sea, over the enemy base or spend a stupidly long amount of time flying a circutious route around all the enemy bases etc. only to be shot down by AAA over the target.

If the reds had the LA7 they could, a) provide a decent escort for the bombers and b) put pressure on the blues keeping them away from the target area.

Considering the amount of effort you've put into the map, it would be a great shame to see it constantly being voted off by players on the server.


This is nit picking on my part but the Soviets never at anypoint imo had the better aircraft even the La7 and Yak 3 were severely handicapped by crap construction methods. many La7s for example were grounded because of the glue used for the wings deteriorated after only a few months.

In IL2 yes they do have 'better' aircraft ie the La5FN but again this is in the context of below 5000 m fighting and not overall.

Anyway back on topic, I see what zorin is attempting with this map and I appreciate it. I see on the otherhand however that the Do 335 is used almost exclsusively for bomber hunting and not bombing and when you then consider the Yaks and P39s have their hands full with Fw 190s and Bf 109s only to be caught and blown up by marauding Do 335's there is a serios balance issue.

Can we maybe create another airbase with only Do 335s miles away from Blue targets and make it really discouraging for people to fly it as a fighter?

Gordano
06-09-2006, 13:54
This is nit picking on my part but the Soviets never at anypoint imo had the better aircraft even the La7 and Yak 3 were severely handicapped by crap construction methods. many La7s for example were grounded because of the glue used for the wings deteriorated after only a few months.

I see your point, however the problem we have is that it is hard to reflect this in the game.

Maybe including only the LA5FN rather than the LA7 would be a good compromise and combined with a possible base move for the Do335 could redress the balance quite well?


Can we maybe create another airbase with only Do 335s miles away from Blue targets and make it really discouraging for people to fly it as a fighter?

Agree, see my post above :)

Zorin
06-09-2006, 15:31
These are the two possible airfields for the Do335. BUT you have to keep in mind, they'll be absolutely undisturbed during their approach and therefor I'd need to drastically increase the target amount to counter that.

We would stop them to attack red bombers, but is it really worth it?

And in how far do you want the frontline to be changed? Keep in mind, I had to alter it already to give reds any red ground simply because there were no airfields close enough to Libau in the historically correct frontline.

http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Airfields.jpg

Firelok
06-09-2006, 19:21
La5FN and P63 suffers the same handicap in speed as a lot of the other planes on the map at least 20kph compared to the Do335, however the La7 is only 9kph slower which gives it a chance of threatening the do335's.Adding the La5FN is only of issue to the other LW planes not the Do335.Add 10 La7's and increase the numbers of do335's to 10 as well. If reds don't use this resource for attacking the Do335's but get them shot up dogfighting FW's that's their problem.
As for the location of the front-lines make the red area larger this needs to be done because of 'fairness' and is a play balance issue that should overrule this degree of historical accurracy to make this map enjoyable for as many folks as possible. Relocating the Do335's isn't as you've pointed out a practical option.

NS-IceFire
06-09-2006, 23:17
La5FN and P63 suffers the same handicap in speed as a lot of the other planes on the map at least 20kph compared to the Do335, however the La7 is only 9kph slower which gives it a chance of threatening the do335's.Adding the La5FN is only of issue to the other LW planes not the Do335.Add 10 La7's and increase the numbers of do335's to 10 as well. If reds don't use this resource for attacking the Do335's but get them shot up dogfighting FW's that's their problem.
As for the location of the front-lines make the red area larger this needs to be done because of 'fairness' and is a play balance issue that should overrule this degree of historical accurracy to make this map enjoyable for as many folks as possible. Relocating the Do335's isn't as you've pointed out a practical option.
I was just thinking that at least in a P-63C you could probably position yourself above the target and dive on the Do-335...without fear of ripping off a wing. It'd still be hard...no clear speed advantage.

I like the Do-335 alot which is why its on Remagen and I hope to be able to make another scenario, maybe for the 1946 addon, where the plane is featured. Probably without limit because it'll be slightly slower than the jets.

Its just such a classy plane...its got that level stabilizer, twin engine reliability, a huge bomb, big guns, not much you can not like about it. Not very agile but good.

Zorin
14-09-2006, 23:40
If I remember correctly, there are 3x 20mm, 2x 37mm and one 88mm at the Libau harbour. But two 37mm and the 88mm are close to the radar facility and therefor only effect people who fly further south instead of turning back to base.

Reds "only" need to destroy 12 ships, which all can be sunk by a 2x500lbs Pe2 loadout. That is a usuall convoy sieze here on UKded.

As Icefire already pointed out, it is not the harbour that causes the lag, it is Libau itself.

My conclusion: Lets have a vote. Who wants to keep it and who wants to discard it. I'll accept whatever the majority decides.

NS-IceFire
14-09-2006, 23:48
I think that, while in concept the map had some great ideas, that in practice the map does not work well. I'd like to see you take another stab at a Kurland map but perhaps centered in a different location.

Just my 0.02 cents Canadian.

Algorex
14-09-2006, 23:48
One of the problems that red bombers have is the lack of information about the actual targets in the harbour, many times i have bombed the radar site in hope of getting more targets done. Clearly i have been attacking the wrong target.

Zorin
14-09-2006, 23:53
One of the problems that red bombers have is the lack of information about the actual targets in the harbour, many times i have bombed the radar site in hope of getting more targets done. Clearly i have been attacking the wrong target.

In its early days, that would be a wise decision. But during the last month the perentage was reduced to like 25% and after that we set the big ships as targets only. So it is not like I wouldn't have tried to help red out as good as I could. Without adding a La ;)

Firelok
15-09-2006, 00:39
So it is not like I wouldn't have tried to help red out as good as I could. Without adding a La ;)
Yet your prepared to chuck the whole thing out rather than add a plane, crazy.

I would reduce the harbour flak to 1 x 37mm and 2x88mm. remove the boats near the northern blue base, remove the northern blue base completely and rely on the southern one for all blue take-off. This prevents there being a constant flak belt near the harbour, reducing lag over the city.Simplify layout of the front lines and expand the area that red controls.Oh and add the La7.

I think there are laggier base-maps than this (NW-Europe for example.)
And Libau city can't really be much worse than say Sevastopol city for example.
Sometimes lots of stuff has got to be altered to get things right, this isn't a bad thing.I like Libau,I wouldn't have spent so long posting on this thread if it wasn't worth getting right.

ForkTailedDevil
15-09-2006, 04:59
The other day this map got voted off. I wasn't in the mood to fly it cause of the lag over target and then running the gauntlet of blue fighters to get home. It seems like there are never any red fighters protecting the target probably cause of lag and aaa. I don't mind flying the Do335 but after 3 or 4 sorties it is less fun since you are pretty invincible. I am not sure of a good solution to the problem. The last time I flew this map I did a torpedo raid in a Sturmovik and just after I released my torp I got a screen freeze it went a way just as I ran into the BB in the harbour.

Zorin
15-09-2006, 11:33
The other day this map got voted off. I wasn't in the mood to fly it cause of the lag over target and then running the gauntlet of blue fighters to get home. It seems like there are never any red fighters protecting the target probably cause of lag and aaa. I don't mind flying the Do335 but after 3 or 4 sorties it is less fun since you are pretty invincible. I am not sure of a good solution to the problem. The last time I flew this map I did a torpedo raid in a Sturmovik and just after I released my torp I got a screen freeze it went a way just as I ran into the BB in the harbour.

Ok, so that is a vote for removin git, right?


Btw, how do you expect to fly BOB if the majority of people can't even handle such a map without being caught in lag and freezes?

stanford
15-09-2006, 11:36
Why can't you add an La? Fly red on it and see what's it like.

Zorin
15-09-2006, 11:37
Because several people already said it wouldn't change anything for them. I asked Fire to add them already in the thread, as you may have seen.

Firelok
15-09-2006, 12:07
Because several people already said it wouldn't change anything for them. I asked Fire to add them already in the thread, as you may have seen.
First time I've noticed that, Ok let's try.I'll add them to your version.

Also...
Was a little bored late last night and edited the version of this map that I have,effectively altering it in line with my suggestions above. Zorin would you consider this a gross infringement, if we tried this slightly simplified alternative?
I would add that I haven't touched the harbour apart from altering the type and quantity of AAA. BTW I won't try out this unless I recieve your personal agreement.

Zorin
15-09-2006, 12:11
Yeah, go ahead. I have written off this map already so do to it what ever you feel to be right.

Boemher
15-09-2006, 13:33
I like this map , Ive flown red once and blue 2/3 times. I took P39 when Red and Fw190 A6 when Blue. Good dogfights and lots of bomber intercepting when flying Blue. The Pe 2s gunners always render my Fw 190 useless after one or two passes (except for Stanfords which always goes down 1st pass :rolleyes: - it must be ping related, Fretch's Pk'd me, took out my engine on another intercept and took out my controls on a third).

It is laggy as hell over targets

If La7 is added I want Fw 190 A8 removed (because of Mk 108s) and Fw 190 D9 added. It is not fair to have La7 - even if included only for Do335 intercept - while having the vastly inferior Fw 190 A8 to fight it.

The Fw 190 D9 poses less of a threat to bombers and would allow for a good Do 335 fighter escort La7 intercept scenario.

Oh and a P63 with a competent pilot is a more potent Do 335 killer than the La7.

Xiola
15-09-2006, 14:04
Please dont remove the Do335's, they are the best thing about this map at the moment, along with the great target design (but unfortunatly this makes it laggy)

I like the map from the blue side, but I am not very keen on flying red.

I think Boemhers idea of adding limited p63's, La7's and limited FW190D9's is a good idea. I think one of the problems is the mix of late and earlier war planes such as the Yak3 vs the 109G6/190A6. Swap these for some later war planes.

Also maybe cutting down on the targets a bit. I think Blue targets are good, maybe just a little too heavy flak, but that makes it exciting. Red however has to run a terrible gauntlet in slow torp plane to get to the harbour.

Better to have less impressive targets than a laggy map which makes people leave.

Algorex
15-09-2006, 14:21
I'm ok with the p-63 but if the la-7/fw-190D combo is added the map will be just like the berlin map after the wonderplanes are gone. Also keep in mind that the kingcobra carries 3x250kg bombload and has the speed to survive the flak over the harbour.

Page 4, we're getting there chaps.

Zorin
15-09-2006, 14:25
Better to have less impressive targets than a laggy map which makes people leave.

But what chance does a mapmaker have to distinct himself from the others, when you take away this, his only chance to develop his own style?

At the end of the day we'll end up with boring tank columns and G2 vs La5 maps :( :wall:

Firelok
15-09-2006, 18:52
Right, I've spent a fair amount of today trying to make this a viable mission for everyone. I look upon what I've done as a mechanic tuning someone else's BMW that just ain't getting to top speed.
changes...
Added the P63 (opinions are still too divided as far as I can see to add any Lavotchkin fighters at all.)
Simplified the front-lines.
Where possible swapped stationary armour for stationary objects.(less AI processing going on.)
Placed all blue planes at the southern airfield.
Altered the AAA for less processor intense versions.
Simplified the harbour slightly.(without compromising essential structures or it's looks.)
Mission size is now 65kb rather than 85kb.
I would have much preferred spending this time on my new La5vsG2 map. :p

Zorin
15-09-2006, 22:36
I loaded the map to a full server. It stayed full. A good thing.

After the first two bombrs, all AAA at the harbour was dead. A bad thing. Why? Because red rushed over the harbour and won the mission with only 3 bombers 30 minutes before the end. Blue flew 50/50 fighters/bombers and after the Dos were gone pretty fast, the Ju88s were easily blown apart by the P63.

But if it works that way and you are happy, I'm happy too.

NS-IceFire
15-09-2006, 23:04
You could always place a few heavy flak batteries not immediately in the area of the harbour but somewhat near to it (inland or along the water - as this is a typical route). That way attacking the target won't specifically knock out the flak.

I still think that sounds like a much better mission. If blue is paying attention then the Pe-2s will be intercepted and hounded as before and it'll still take considerable work.

Ju88s are going to get blown apart by P-63s or P-39s just the same.

Zorin
15-09-2006, 23:08
You could always place a few heavy flak batteries not immediately in the area of the harbour but somewhat near to it (inland or along the water - as this is a typical route). That way attacking the target won't specifically knock out the flak.

I still think that sounds like a much better mission. If blue is paying attention then the Pe-2s will be intercepted and hounded as before and it'll still take considerable work.

Ju88s are going to get blown apart by P-63s or P-39s just the same.

Well, it is not that mutch of a big deal when you know how to work the Ju88. Got home and shot down a P63, so maybe I was a bit overreacting seeing so many others going down. Anyway, Firelok could try to place some AAA, maybe a ship, on route and some behind the target. Keeping the harbour itself clear of AAA but still get a good cover.

Firelok
16-09-2006, 03:01
what I'd like to try is different flak layouts(and composition) around the harbour, dispersing them a little more, plus at the moment red's do have a quite low %tage target's to destroy this could be increased easily.

Zorin
19-09-2006, 23:11
Reds won this map after only 20 minutes today. There needs soemthing to be done to the AAA, otherwise the targets become rather pointless.

Algorex
19-09-2006, 23:15
I think the blues need to take a long look at each other, we played this and all the blue fighters including some Dos were hunting red fighter between the bases, only couple of fws were clever enough to climb over the coast on shoot down the pe-2s.

As JtD said, on DF servers it's the players who should defend the targets not the AAA.

If you want to change something maybe remove the red targets from the town, i think the artillery sites are enough.

Firelok
20-09-2006, 00:05
While I do like most of the changes you made Firelok, I have to ask where the pocket is gone. It was the Kurland pocket, and the Germans were inside the pocket.

You know what, after giving so much smart ass advice I migth as well edit the file myself to give you a chance for revenge.

I think even keeping the number of front markers down to it's current number a pocket could easily be acheived.Zorin, like I've said earlier the target % is still quite low for reds this could be increased easily.

Zorin
20-09-2006, 00:15
Yeah, guess that would work aswell and doesn'T cause any lag ;) Set it to 80%. That should take reds a little longer.

Zorin
29-10-2006, 19:06
Everything fine now after the latest changes or still a candidate for a quick voting out?

Firelok
30-10-2006, 01:42
Everything fine now after the latest changes or still a candidate for a quick voting out?
I so hope...
We however are subject to a fickle public so we can't sure. Hope not like Do335s have always love pe2s and FW's are the choice blue ride here with P63 closing quick for next best ride.

slm
05-11-2006, 21:34
I haven't read this whole thread, but in September there has been some discussion about AAA near the harbour. While playing this map recently I checked the harbour area using a static camera. There were 3-4 88mm guns positioned in some kind of concrete shelters. It seemed to me that at least some of those guns weren't shooting at all. The gun was pointed straight ahead as if it was an antitank gun, not up towards enemy planes.

I don't know if it was those deep shelters that was causing this or did I just happen to look during a moment when the AI gun crews didn't see anything worth shooting? Anyway, I was wondering if the mission author would like to check this?

Firelok
05-11-2006, 21:42
slm these AAA positions have been swapped out for static versions as the amount of AAA here prevented the map from being playable in terms of map lagginess and the sheer danger of flying here and over the other targets too.

p.s. I recommend you read every post in this thread it is like a microcosm of all possible issues that may occur with a map and peoples reactions to it.Obviously at four (sorry seven) pages it's a doozy but well worth it. :)

slm
05-11-2006, 22:20
I did read more and looks like this map has gone through quite a bit editing.

I was going to suggest that there should be more heavy flak as many real harbours had much more of this. I *think* the light flak spraying tracers constantly causes much more lag than heavier guns that shoot only now and then. But there was this comment that heavy AA disturbs dog fighting in a much larger area, which certainly is true. So maybe getting more 88s isn't such a good idea. Unless you put them a bit further from the harbour like Zorin suggested 15.9. Blue air field could be one place. It's not too well protected now.

Firelok
06-11-2006, 02:48
At the moment there are 4 20mm flak batteries and one 88mm so this is a kind of average.(and Not what Zorin the designer put there in the first place BTW, I altered this map quite a lot, so it's current condition is down to me really.)
As to which type causes more lag that's like one of those cyclic arguements.

I'm trying to focus on what your saying here slm, Do you think this is an objective that's too easy because of lack of flak?

Also isn't it the blue fighter's job to protect the harbour rather than leave it to the AAA?

I personally prefer lighter flak over targets to encourage fighter protection missions and quite strong flak (in fact evil flak) over home airbases where the enemy have no right to be and to discourage mischief. :)

NS-IceFire
06-11-2006, 04:11
I do agree on the flak versus fighter defense. Flak is good because it makes the experience authentic and it also means that you can't just fly circles around the target picking it off at will. There is risk involved...but it shouldn't necessarily be the reason that the target is defended. Thats what fighters are for.

slm
06-11-2006, 15:50
I think there's little difficulty in bombing the harbour because of flak. Getting back to red base may be much more difficult if defending fighters are alert and red fighters do not defend their bombers. So if the intention has been to tweak flak so that results depend of fighter defense, that's exactly how things are now.

If home bases should be well protected, I don't think the blue base near Libau is.

Gordano
06-11-2006, 16:10
Just a thought,

But would the idea of maybe adding some flak over the approach/egress routes to the target.

This would keep the heavily defended target idea that Zorin had in mind, but not have all the flak in one concentrated area which should hopefully reduce the lag?

Sort of a steady stream of low intensity flak would in my opinion make the mission very atmospheric. Sort of like the B17/24 raids over occupied Europe, taking flak for the majority of the route to the target.

I know this is a BIG deviation from our normal mission set ups and I appreciate it may not go hand in hand with the dogfighting side of the server, however I think it may be worth a try. It may actually add to the teamwork with some coordinated fighter bomber escorts clearing out the aaa on route.

Firelok
06-11-2006, 18:02
Overall this map really doesn't have a great deal of flak, both bases and the targets are quite light really, the aim was to try and improve playability (i.e. less lag higher framerates) and to address some of the complaints about uber flak.

Sonko
10-06-2008, 20:27
Just one more boing, the blue base is definately too close to the red target, impossible to get back in one piece when flying a red bomber, anyway, the target is damned hard to hit as the ships are surrounded by concrete walls and such stuff, if you'll ever make it past the deadly aaa.

I could have a look at this map, if someone could mail it to me zonkoiATgmx.de
I'm sure I'll find a solution, I really like the layout of the other target so I'd hate to see this map being dumped.

Chatta don't you have access to the maps stuff so you could send it to me so that I can introduce some altered version of this map?

Zorin
03-07-2008, 16:23
Bump

Sonko
18-11-2008, 23:55
Updated the map, changed the time to 6:30AM, clouds now at 500m and most important, the harbor scenery was cut down very much.
It looks different but good IMO and should be running in an acceptable framerate now!

Nightshifter
20-11-2008, 01:04
Played this tonight and had a great time with it, nice time of day, nice aircraft, lots of bombing going on and good dogfights..............need I say more :D