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Zorin
16-06-2006, 22:34
I have finished the map update without any major changes to the basic layout. The only change is that reds have a new target not directly of the shore to the blue base. It is a floatplane freightport and a small yard with tanks which shall be send back to germany for salvage.

The carriers are now asleep and equipped with Seafires while being defended by three destroyers.

http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Malta-map1.jpg
http://www.rollenspiel.mirko-wilhelm.de/upload/Malta-map2.jpg


Blue:

Bf 1097/B
Bf 109F4
Bf 110 E
He-111H6
Ju87D-3
Ju88
MC 200
MC 202

Red:

Seafire F.MKIII
Spitfire Vb
Hurricane IIb
Hurricane IIc
P40E
Beaufighter

Nightshifter
17-06-2006, 13:21
The floatplane freightport looks very cool, like the addition of the Seafires too - will look forward to trying this out.

Zorin
17-06-2006, 17:34
Thanks Shifter. :)

There are also running lights in the water and a lighthouse at the end of the "runway" which you can't see on the pic. The airfileds are also detailed with workshops and stuff, I know you all like that ;)

@Daytrader: Out of four carriers there are two for starting and two for landing. The ones for landing are lite up with lights, so you should be able to manage to land without any problems.

@JtD: Could you please send me the properties file, so I only need to alter the grids, instead of having to write it all myself.

Firelok
17-06-2006, 19:37
Yes does look good, your usual high attention to detail and creativity Zorin.
I'm sure it'll be fun to play adding greater impotance to the eastern blue base because of the port's central location.
But I shall miss the high-speed low level torpedo attacks in a Beau and desperately running from the 109s back towards base. :rolleyes:
I'm sure I can remedy this by making another anti-shipping Beau mission in the future. :)

Zorin
17-06-2006, 19:50
Thanks Fire. :)

And as I knew someone would come up with it, I have placed the Aurora with some freighters in the most outern western edge of C4 as the secondary target. But as the early Beaus had no torps, you have to sink them with bombs, which is still great fun, IMO.

Zorin
20-06-2006, 15:19
Where shall I get one from JtD?

I think it'll be the best to leave the Beaufighter unrestricted. That way you get your torps and I just adjust the targets a little.

Zorin
20-06-2006, 16:19
Files hav ebeen send to JtD. Maybe we can try it tonight.

Zorin
22-06-2006, 23:49
[Target1]
side=2
1=1 0 0 0 1000 21388 33849 1100
2=1 0 0 0 1000 32163 31386 1000
[Target2]
side=1
1=1 0 0 0 1000 15215 48317 1600

That is what is in the ini file, except the second target for reds had a zero too mutch at the end. But that was the only mistake, so I have no clue why the targets are mixed up.

Gordano
29-06-2006, 22:41
I played the updated version today for the first time.

I like all of the changes except for one, which is the decision to add the Spit MkV to the island base in E5.

I found that this did unbalance the map slightly, as it makes it very hard for any German bombers to make it to the targets. What happens is people have difficulty taking off from the carrier in the Seafire and simply move to the land base to fly an almost identical plane. There were more people flying Spits from the island than there were players flying Seafires from the carriers. This leads to a mass of reds hanging around just off the coast to the north of the western blue base and intercepting the bombers minutes after they have taken off.

Its fine having the Beau, hurricanes and P40s based there as they a good match up for the 109E and MC200/202s based at the blue base. Having the Spit so close unbalances things a bit to much and leads to the Reds meeting the blue bombers too soon, ie. before they have gained any altitude or began to take an evasive route to the targets. On the previous version of the map the fighters would intercept the bombers closer to the targets and at a time where they would have more options to evade open to them, rather than either "Stall and Crash", "Get Shot Down" or for the adventerous a combination of the two.

You'll find that people will give up taking bombers after the first flight of not getting above 500m!

Xiola
30-06-2006, 13:58
Its far too hard to take off in a Spitfire F, I crashed 8 before I managed it, same with a few others. I htink there were about 30-40 Seafire lost before we all got off the carriers what with crashes and respawning into each other.

Its impossible to take of with any ordanance also, the only time the Seafire really came into play was when the carrier was destroyed and they got an airstart.

I like the new layout, ground targets are good, I only have flown red so far tho. so I dont know about the blue side. :)

Nice work so far Zorin! :)

Not sure what to say about the Seafire, would a Seafire L be too much for a 109F4? Is there a Seafire 'normal' instead?

Possibly put the Spitfire Vb back on the Carriers and take it off the Island?

Many options to try

Firelok
30-06-2006, 14:52
I also suggest to remove the lights from the carriers decks, it is confusing to see 50 ground targets in the chat but only 5 ships. You could leave the red and green lights at the stern if you make the ships individual targets with a really small circle.



I think this applies to the seaplane port aswell , maybe just red/green lights out near the lighthouse to make this area a little smoother with it's lively flak.

Xiola
30-06-2006, 18:23
WRT carrier take offs: the Saratoga and Essexes offer longer and higher flying decks than the British carriers. Maybe use them?

This sounds like a good solution, as it would enable the Seafires to maybe take off with a couple of small bombs.

The Seafire F does work well as an early seafire varient, but its REALLY pooor down low. I was being b&zed constantly by a Bf109F4 (I counted 14 times he came down at me, I htink it was nearsighted) I could mostly outturn his attacks (he hit me as JTD came in too help) but could get nowhere near to him when I tried to gain some altitude.

NS-IceFire
30-06-2006, 22:14
You shouldn't have any trouble with the Seafire F.III on takeoff. Its only a few hundred KG more than the Vb I had thought. You do need a good carrier technique and WEP is recommended.

Drop the flaps on takeoff as well. Illustrious class shouldn't be a problem...

Xiola
30-06-2006, 23:09
I got bounced by numerous 109's on my Seafire sortie, in the worst situation it was 3 vs. 1, yet I made it back to base taking 3 of them out of the fight. Most of that combat took place at low altitudes. I do think that the Seafire is good enough to fight the F-4. It has 120 rpg, which is a real advantage over the Vb.

Rgr but you are an ace and I am crap :P

I always take bombs if I can and he turned up just after I had bombed and was vulnerable and I was just on the back foot all the time.

Maybe it was just the situation for me, I just couldnt gain an advantage at all and was just constantly B&Zed time after time until you turned up, I couldnt seem to climb in the Seafire at all. Each time I tried to climb a bit, the 109F4 simply went higher, faster.

It was just one sortie mate, and I was having trouble, dont take my statement too seriously :) will try it again next time and it will probably turn out differently...

Scrappy_D
30-06-2006, 23:53
A good 109-F4 pilot will always match every move a seafire can make ... the only hope is that flak or a freindly helps out ...

Just from my own experiences flying both types :)

NS-IceFire
01-07-2006, 00:06
F4 is a tough nut to crack. You need to enter the fight with advantage and keep the 109s in the horizontal. Eventually they run out of energy and have to dive...thats when you get them.

Its always a tough fight for the Spitfires in this time period but they are decent enough. Just because its a Spit doesn't mean there is room for sloppy tactics or flying...gotta be tight on the stick.

Xiola
01-07-2006, 01:27
A good 109-F4 pilot will always match every move a seafire can make ... the only hope is that flak or a freindly helps out ...

Just from my own experiences flying both types :)

I was talking primarily about the Seafire F High FLyer , Scrappy, I think I may have been able to do a bit better in a Seafire L low flyer.

I could outturn him almost everytime he made a pass, but he still got a couple of hits from hi deflection shots.

In the vertical I certainly agree with you on that score. But in my opinon, the Seafire is superior in Horizontal turning. That was all I could do, he was bound to get a few hits eventually. He took out my elevators just as JTD turned up, but I managed to land it, luckily (not something I can do often).

I was just frustrated that I was totally defensive and could see no way out of the situation, ieven n a SPitfire Vb I am sure I could have gaind a little height after each evasion and eventually fought back a little on more even terms, but in the Seafire it just seemed to climb like a real dog, leading me to have to evade again before i got any higher. In fact it seemed like I was losing height after each 'round' rather than gaining height, despite extreme efforts. It went like this :-

1: I am low, Me109F4 zooms down on me and I do a Split S and fly under him, he cannot get a solution and zooms back up.

2. I lost some height in the manouver so while he is getting back into position I try to gain a little height.

3. He comes down again and I evade again.

4. I lose even more height.

5. I try to climb again while he is getting into position for next pass.

6. Back to 1, until I am too low to spilt S and just turning sharply to evade instead.


and this went on and on about 13-14 times, he managed slight hits once. I was impressed with his patience, I think it was nearsighted in the 109.

Even in a Spitfire Vb I can gain a bit of height in this scenario , each time, but in the Seafire F HIgh Flyer I seemed to lose more than I gained.

Firelok
01-07-2006, 11:46
I think it's possible here to keep Spits flying from an Island and make the Flying routes and Flying distances even for both blue and red teams. At the moment the blue bomber base is so far away it's mean and they have to fly past an island full of fighters and Beaufighters to get to their target.
I suggest exactly the same planeset with Spits etc.But...
BOMBER FLIGHTPATHS AND NEW AIRBASES
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/maltamap.jpg
Blues bomber base is moved onto the eastern island. Red have an island base near the carriers for spitVb and Beaus. Blues bombers get intercepted near the targets and they arn't on a direct flightpath of the Beaus. No blue bomber aircraft at the mainland desert airstrip, just fighters, 109E4B plus He111s etc on the eastern island. Just an idea :rolleyes:

Xiola
02-07-2006, 21:49
Will oyu put in bigger carriers for th Seafire take off problem Firelok?

Looks good, I havent played fromt he blue side yet.

Firelok
03-07-2006, 00:24
I'm just proposing an idea, final decision here is Zorin's.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 11:37
Changing the crriers and reducing the lights is no big deal and absolutely fine with me. But the changes concerning the bases, well, that wont improve the map, IMO. The layout suggested by Fire will bring the whole action into grid B5 and reds will never get the chance to gain any altitude before they are attacked by the blue forces which will be hanging around the island and carriers all the time. To prevent this I came up with my base setup which decentralises the action.

And btw, if the blue bombers, wich are allowed to carry two 2000kg bombs, which is enough to sink a carrier, take the direct route, it is their own fault. I made a run with a Ju88 over the mainland to the second blue base and from there to the carriers and sunk one and returned without any scratches. People just need to think before they fly ;)

Firelok
15-07-2006, 12:20
The layout suggested by Fire will bring the whole action into grid B5 and reds will never get the chance to gain any altitude before they are attacked by the blue forces which will be hanging around the island and carriers all the time.
Maps with a centralised area of action often work very well. 2000m+ of altitude is possible before any blue fighters(the western base) can arrive at the carriers.
As soon as one carrier is sunk the reds get all the altitude they'll ever need.
My suggestion of using both islands( the eastern one for blue bombers) not only evens the bombers flight time but prevents blue bombers constant interception from this island as a fighterbase. As outlined elsewhere in this thread not everyone is 100% capable of using the Seafire from a carrier and so need a land-based spit to get involved but where that land-based spit begins flying is going to affect the blue bombers significantly.I think we have an opportunity to make the central part of this map a seething cauldron of action,bombers, fighters, defenders, attackers. :)

Zorin
15-07-2006, 12:44
If that is what the majority wants, it'll be a pleasure for me to obey. And if it doesn't work we can still switch to the old setup. :)

Gordano
15-07-2006, 13:32
The point I was making was that the introduction of the Spitfire to the island base is what is causing the map to become unbalanced.

After 1 or 2 failed take off attempts a lot of people will look for an easier solution, which for the majority would involve selecting the Spit on the island base.

This has the effect of shifting the bulk of the red fighter cover from being directly over the carriers to the E4 area instead.

All we need is for the Spit to be removed from the island base and nothing more drastic than that.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 13:57
I have build the new setup as proposed by Fire, but we can test both variants. One with the Spit removed from the island and the new setup. Shouldn't be a problem.

Zorin
15-07-2006, 16:17
I have send the new files to JtD. Maybe we can test the map tonight.

Zorin
18-07-2006, 20:48
Rgr JtD.

We just played the map and blue won rather fast. Which might be because of the teamplay, which worked well for the bomber boys, but I'D rather say it is the unlimited loadout on the Ju88. So I suggest to reduce the max loadout to two 500kg bombs.

On the otehr hand side, seeing the Beaus being abused as bomber hunters, I'D like to see the rockets removed.

Your ideas?

Algorex
18-07-2006, 22:02
How about reverting Malta back to the orginal consept, it worked just fine, add some objects for eye candy for the masses if you like. These new ideas could be worked in to a completely new mission.

Zorin
19-07-2006, 02:51
The old version is still available and polished up. The only thing than would be to remove the Spit from the island base and see how things develop during that test.

Firelok
19-07-2006, 06:50
Rgr JtD.

We just played the map and blue won rather fast. Which might be because of the teamplay, which worked well for the bomber boys, but I'D rather say it is the unlimited loadout on the Ju88. So I suggest to reduce the max loadout to two 500kg bombs.

On the otehr hand side, seeing the Beaus being abused as bomber hunters, I'D like to see the rockets removed.

Your ideas?
Yes it was a quick win with a dedicated and skilled bomber force :) I often think it takes time for folks to decide where the 'hunting grounds' are on a map and I'm not sure whether the red fighters were looking in the right place here as the bombers are coming in from an entirely new direction. Blues definately 'outbomb' Reds here in terms of number of runs required to take out their targets, I've not seen the effects of a dedicated and determined Red bomber force here. You may be right about the rockets on the Beaus but it still didn't prevent a very quick win and the Beau has impressive armament and speed so I'm sure it will be 'abused' even without the rockets.
I'd think about increasing reds fleet size rather than limiting bombloads (these tend to annoy folks.)
Lastly, and this might be going off topic and straying into heresy :eek: but shouldn't a 'Malta' scenario be a lot more like the Pearl harbour map? with reds desperately defending their harbour and facilities?
What we all call 'Malta' is more a generic Mediterranean scenario.

Algorex
19-07-2006, 09:58
The old version is still available and polished up. The only thing than would be to remove the Spit from the island base and see how things develop during that test.

By the orginal version i mean the once over played, spitVbs on carriers, E-boats as red targets, Malta. I want that back.


Lastly, and this might be going off topic and straying into heresy but shouldn't a 'Malta' scenario be a lot more like the Pearl harbour map? with reds desperately defending their harbour and facilities?
What we all call 'Malta' is more a generic Mediterranean scenario.

Well the original Malta was based on brittish operation to supply Malta with modern defence fighters, namely the Spitfire Vb and the germans tried to prevent this with land-based bombers and E-boats. The eastern island is Malta and it has hurris for defence and Spits are suppose to land there after the carrier deck take off.

This new "Malta" could be called "Mediterranean42" or something like that.

BRING BACK THE OLD MALTA!

Firelok
21-07-2006, 11:50
Well the original Malta was based on brittish operation to supply Malta with modern defence fighters, namely the Spitfire Vb and the germans tried to prevent this with land-based bombers and E-boats.

I found this ....
The first overseas deployment of Spitfires as fighters took place on 7 March, when 15 tropicalised Mk Vs carrying 90-gallon slipper fuel tanks took off from the flight deck of HMS Eagle bound for Malta, 600 miles (960 km) away.
here...http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/fite_cnt.htm :confused:
Is this the Vc 2 cannon A/C ?

Algorex
21-07-2006, 12:24
I believe so. Close enough for me and by previous accounts close enough for this histerical server of ours

Does this mean the old one is back in business? ;)
MkVc/b doesn't make any difference to me.

Firelok
21-07-2006, 12:41
I believe so. Close enough for me and by previous accounts close enough for this histerical server of ours

Does this mean the old one is back in business? ;)
MkVc/b doesn't make any difference to me.
Nowhere near enough wrangling yet, to decide the issue one way or the other.
This thread's only reached it's second page, by about page five we might be getting closer :p

Xiola
21-07-2006, 13:11
I owuld like to see both on the server.

Anything to get more 109F4 vs SPitV action ;) I played 5 maps the other night and not ONE had 109F4 vs SpitV action! :mad: :p

BTW wouldnt a Spitfire Vc2 or Vc4 be a better choice for the Spitfire? They were primarily for the Med with the vokes filter?

Firelok
10-08-2006, 13:42
Where are we with this discussion? Malta, Tunis and Spain are the only Desert Maps on the server at the moment and Malta isn't in the main cycle yet.
We have three options...
1. SpitVb carrier take-off/Beaus from east-Island.(Original)
2. Seafire carriers plus Beaus/Fighters targetting Seaplane base/tanks.(Zorins 1st)
3. Seafire carriers with west island allied and east island Axis bombers(Zorin's2nd;this is what is loaded at the moment, ^that blue won so quickly.^)

Algorex
10-08-2006, 14:51
One vote for number 1.

Zorin
10-08-2006, 15:00
The simplest solution for No3 is to limit the big bombs on the bombers. It is that way on Sicily and works pretty good.

Gordano
10-08-2006, 15:52
I vote for option 2 - Providing that there are no spits or seafires based on the red island, only Beaufighters and Hurris

charliechap
15-08-2006, 19:56
For Zorin, and any others that may be interested in an extended overview,
following are some historical thoughts and idea's relating to an online Malta scenario:-

Malta was primarily a desperate defence until 1943. Almost all action fell into two categories:-

i) The Desperate defence of the Port (Le Valletta and Grande Harbour and the ships therein) and airfields of Malta Island by the RAF. And the attack thereof by the Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe.

ii) The desperate defence of convoys fighting their way through to Malta. Carrier fighters and Malta based
Fighters flew at maximum endurance to provide cap over these convoys whilst the Axis (and Italy's role in this is often underestimated, they bore the brunt really) threw everything but the kitchen sink at the convoys...planes, warships, subs, MAS boats (Italian MTB's), frogmen on torpedoes, remote controlled explosive packed planes. You name it, the Italians tried it.

What you have currently is as Firelock says, a 'generic' Mediterranean scenario.
The sands of time map is really not correct to represent Malta at all.

Malta Docks are more like Pearl Harbour ....and Malta itself is much larger than 'Blowfeldts' island of the Sands of time Map.

I used the Map Marianaís with Guam representing Malta for my offline campaigns...
(and I will email you the online template willingly if you give me details but...my template is far too densely packed with objects for an online scenario, perhaps it could be thinned out...also air starting planes
are not a problem for an offline campaign but are a major problem Online. You would have to create a series of 'floating' airfields for the Axis to make it workable. Give me an address and I can email this to you if interested.)

if this is not workable I would suggest that it is best to await the new Italian map coming soon as it looks very promising, and accept that the current Malta scenario is more of a generic med scenario with slightly more emphasis upon shipping.


OK that aside:-

the Battle of Malta raged from 1940 until 1943....

there is therefore not a 'generic plane set' for Malta, it depends upon the time period. I will outline the phases of the battle, suggest plane sets and put historical notes of the 'highpoints' and most famous operations that occurred during those 'timeperiods'.

1940

Allied
J8A Gladiators (parts for 8 rather than 3 as commonly believed)
Hurricane 1's (upto 30 but generally only 1 squadron operational)
Blenheims (and Marylands)

Allied carriers
J8A SeaGladiators (and Swordfish which we are never going to see :-( )

Axis

Cr42's (large numbers, majority RA plane)
mc200 (less common but frequent)
Ju87's (Italian operated called Picchiatelli's)
Savoia Marchetti S79 (not in game...a three engined bomber like a Ju52 )

1941 Early

Allied

J8a (only 3)
Hurricane 1's (tried to keep strength to 30)
Blenheims and Marylandís

Axis ( Luftwaffe X Fliegercorp transfer to Sicily in Jan. specialists in anti shipping...JG27 fighters follow soon after)

cr42 (still very frequent)
Mc200 ( similar quantities to above)
Savoia Marchetti S79 (not in game...a three engine bomber like a Ju52 )
ju87's Italian and German
Ju88's (according to accounts used 1000 lb bombs)
He111's (due to initial production delay, no or limited torpedoes until mid 41)
Bf110 (early version)
Bf109E (but in very limited numbers (JG23), the Germans relied primarily upon the RA for fighter cover)

Noteworthy:-
January. Attack on the HMS illustrious. Damaged by X Fliegercorp the carrier took shelter in Malta. For three days became subject to the most intense attacks on any ship in history. Unbelievably Illustrious survived.
(by the end of Jan the RAF had lost over 300 planes destroyed and had less than 30 flyable again !)
Several convoys fought their way to port.
Generally very intense Day and Night bombing, often the RAF was just too weak to put up any defence.

1941 Late

Allied

Hurricane IIb's replace I's (able to put two squadrons up against major raids)
Beauforts based on Island (but without torpedoes at this stage as Zorin correctly states, the A20C is a more accurate representation of a Beaufort than the late Beaufighters)

Allied Carriers
J8A gradually replaced by Seahurricanes (basically RAF mkI's handed down, with hooks and folding wings) and Fulmars which are not in game and where completely crap !
(note, Royal Navy Sea Skua divebombers of this time looked very like Japanese Kate torpedo bombers and had very similar performance but could not carry torpedoes, although the Kate bomb armament is similar !)

Axis

as above plus:-
Mc202 mkIII's (the elite 4o Stormo)
Bf109 F4's (yes the RAF where totaly outclassed and got their A**** handed to them at this time !)

noteworthy:-
More convoys and very intense fighting around them. (I have much more detail if required)
After one convoy arrived Italian frogmen on torpedoes and explosive filled MAS boats attempted to attack Valletta harbour in conjunction with planes of RA.
Throughout very intense bombing....but Malta harbour gradually becomes protected by an incredible AA and balloon barrage.
Very occasional Allied offensive action against Italian convoys and Sicilian airfields.


1942

(Extreme supply shortages on the Island..plus awarded Victoria Cross)

Allied

Hurricane IIb's (numerous, fuel is more of a problem than planes)
Hurricane IIc's
(late April +) SpitfireVb(tropical) (the Spitfire Vc(2) is much closer than the Vb ingame)
Beaufighters
Beauforts (A20C's ?)

Allied Carriers
Seahurricanes (MkIa still) until August some Martlets introduced (lend lease F3F4) for convoy 'Pedestal'.
Carriers where used to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes to Malta but the SeaSpitfire did not yet exist as such.

Axis (Kesselring based an entire Luftflotte in Sicily at this stage.)

cr42 (now rare)
mc200 (also second line)
mc202 mkIII (a few but majority upgraded at end of 41)
mc202 mkvii (majority RA fighter)
S79's
Ju87
Ju88
He111 (less frequent)
bf110's
bf109F4 (more than just a handful in 42)

noteworthy:-
42 is when it really came to a head in the Med...Malta hung on by a thread.
Most of the big convoy actions happened (and the RN lost many warships, carriers and freighters) most famously convoy 'Pedestal'. (and again I have serious details about this)
The heaviest bombing of the island also occured and the bloodiest dogfights.
Only one 24 hour period without bombing between mid 41 and mid 42 !.
Allied anti shipping activity however very efffective due to perfect intelligence from cracked Ultra codes (Beauforts now + torpedoes, and Beufighters as night defence).
In September and October the Axis lost over 300 planes over Malta and from then on the Allies began to go onto the offensive.

1943

American planes and the kind of stuff in your current planesets in Malta. SeaSpits, P40N's, B24's, Mosquitoes...
...but the 'legendary' battle is really over.
Similar planeset now to Sicily.

I apologise for this being practically a thesis. Long as it is I feel as though I have only just scraped the surface.

This is off the top of my head so I may have overlooked some detail or be slightly out with my timescale (a month or so, probably not more), I will look up detail if and when necessary.

Anyhow hope this is of some use and helps make a better simulation possible.

CharlieChap

Firelok
15-08-2006, 20:27
charliechap have a look at this thread/mission. Valletta Mission (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=11251)
Opinion here still seems divided, Zorin's option of loadout limitation is easy to implement however before even more testing, but out of the 3 options I've laid out before we now have an advocate for all of them. :confused:

charliechap
15-08-2006, 20:49
I would think that a mission over a large densely packed harbour is certainly the way to go in order to recreate the majority of operations over Malta.
(I basically chose that option offline, but could also utilize the whole of much larger maps).

Or else a red convoy about equidistant between the two sides bases.

Of the three options outlined I would not know which to choose, as I have said, the 'Sands of Time' variant looks good but is really an enlarged 'med' scenario which is probably great to play but isn't really Malta..

With the 43' planeset as in the Malta variant 'historical' ordinance should not be restricted although that is not to say that it shouldn't be done to create balance.

In your Valetta variant however with earlier planeset (no longer J8A's I am afraid) plus mc202 mk Vii would have been majority RA plane. The Axis actually did have huge ordinance production problems about this time, caused by beurocratic bungling (it primarily manifested as a shortage of airlaunched torpedoes).

(I don't feel really qualified to comment about online scenario balance as yet until I have a little more experiance,)

Valletta mission looks like it is closer to something that I would recognize from a historic perspective and is more similar to how I personally would envisage it.

Play balance and recreating something differant that resembles an aspect of history seems to be a fine line.

I like warclouds and the people that fly there.....but after a while it feels like you are always playing the same mission as it always has the same planes.

War clouds seems like mission design by committee and ultimately suffers a sameness of content.

This server is much better, it has quirky missions....people may not like some of them ...but it is probably important that people go 'out there'...and designers do what they feel correct , and take wild chances and try and do stuff that is differant.

Nobody is really qualified to give a 'correct' answer, and if that starts to happen I think it a bad sign.

I have managed to avoid a definite anything here quite well I hope ....

:)

Algorex
16-08-2006, 00:54
Few quick notes: J8A is the swedish name for the gladiator Mk.II, J8 was the gladiator Mk.I, RAF always called them gladiators. (ingame plane is the J8A, dials are all in swedish).

Ju88s used 1000kg bombs from day one, even when they were supplied to the finns (who had short runways and could only take off with 1500kg loads instead of the german 2500kg limit) they used bomb load of 1x1000kg and 10x50kg. We are really missing a lot of ju88 loads, because it could fly with remarkably uneven loads, such as 1000kg on the left wing and a 500kg on the right and some 50kgs in the bay.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 01:34
Look forwards to maybe seeing a dogfight map of your creation running on our servers charliechap, pick a favourite scenario and go for it. Plenty of people prepared to help out with the tech stuff for running it on a dedicated server and we have some tutorials stickied in our essentials section I think. :)

ForkTailedDevil
16-08-2006, 05:08
Wow sounds like a lot of options. How bout a couple of Malta maps like we have with the channel front?? I love the old planes so I think a 40-41 Malta map would be fun even if the red doesn't have a target but just to protect it's own targets.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 14:33
For the time being, as a test, current map on the server now has the following restrictions on stuff...
P-40E=1000lb

Bf-110G-2=m1;m1m3;m1m5;r1;r1r7;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab25 0;r3r7m5;r4;r7m1

He-111H-6=2SC1000;2PC1600;2SC2000

Ju-88A-4=2xSC2000;2xSC1800

So Ju88s get 1000kgs but not the He111s they get torps instead.

Let's see how this goes, again as mentioned earlier I think an all out attack by reds on their targets needs to be done to give us a proper idea of the objective balance here.

Zorin
16-08-2006, 14:36
Ok, sounds like a test with all regulars on the red side tonight.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 14:41
chariechap
1940

Allied
J8A Gladiators (parts for 8 rather than 3 as commonly believed)
Hurricane 1's (upto 30 but generally only 1 squadron operational)
Blenheims (and Marylands)

Allied carriers
J8A SeaGladiators (and Swordfish which we never going to see :-( )

Axis

Cr42's (large numbers, majority RA plane)
mc200 (less common but frequent)
Ju87's (Italian operated called Picchiatelli's)
Savoia Marchetti S79 (not in game...a three engined bomber like a Ju52 )
This could make for a real hardore early-war mission and hey not a 109 in sight.I Expect it would be voted against in droves though.

Zorin
16-08-2006, 14:51
Sounds interesting. I like the fact that it is a bit like spain but without the stupid I16s.

If we can keep distances short this could be fun. My only concern would be the total lack of firepower on the axis side. Stupid italian MGs... :mad:

Chatanooga
16-08-2006, 15:37
I like the idea of the early war version, Spain is one of my favourite maps.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 16:38
In the process of updating some other stuff I've put the current Malta into the cycle.
Whilst I was out walking before it occurred to me why not have a larger fleet that the red carrier/destroyers are escorting then tinkering with bombloadouts for the blues becomes immaterial and they get lots of stuff to blow up too.
4 carrier targets for blues and at least 60+ for reds is a little lobsided perhaps.

Zorin
23-08-2006, 00:29
Yes, I thought of having the carriers simply as targets. So only 2 not 4, and just have the reds have the airfield on the island. It should be enough to support 16 reds.

And after the addon, we should change the Beaufighter to the A20C.

System-M-
19-09-2006, 22:48
Just flown this map and I think it needs some more work.

Red outnumbered blue by about 7 players on an almost full server.

Blue flew 3 He111's and a Ju88.

Red flew 6/7 Beau's



The size and distance of the harbour makes this map VERY hard for red to even get a sniff at winning. 80% of the targets is very high after attacking the tanks and the harbour with bombs rockets and guns we went from about 80 targets to 40 something and that was qith 5 of our beaus, the remainding Beaus went for hte ships, which they all sunk the only problem is SC says there was one remaining even after all the ships were destroyed. by the time we had done this the 3 He111's and ju 88 had successfully sunk all the Reds ships.

Something needs to be done. I don't think i have ever seen red even get near winning this map.

A reduction in % of targets needed for red seems best.

Also the little fix on the ship targets that SC has trouble counting too.

I think this could be a good map then.

Algorex
19-09-2006, 22:53
And what we could see from our beaus and externals we could even find enough targets in the harbour. It could be the old SC registering neutraŲ objectives as targets problem.

My prejudice aside, this map needs work.

Zorin
19-09-2006, 22:58
Yeah, sounds reasonable System. I guess Firelok can fix all this. I already set the fishing boats to neutral, forgetting that SC is a bit of a stupid prog, counting just everything in the target area... So we should set the percentage to 70%, simply because the ships are easy prey for the Beaus and the targets should remain a challenge. For blue bombers, they are on a suicide missions right to the red hornets nest on every run.

What do you think of removing the carrier planes and place the Spit Vb on the island base? We would keep the carriers as targets, could delete the lights which would be unnecessary and prevent 2000m spawns of 120 rounds Seafires.

System-M-
19-09-2006, 23:01
Also forgot to say the tank yard is very hard rockets dont scratch the tanks and the Beaus payload leads to about 1 tank being destroyed each round.

The Spit Vb's are allready on the island and the Ship has only seafires on them.

Zorin
19-09-2006, 23:05
Tanks are already the softest and second softest tanks germans had in northern africa at that time.

And which other planes di you expect on the carriers? Besides you didn't answer my question.

Zorin
20-09-2006, 18:21
Yeah, sounds reasonable System. I guess Firelok can fix all this. I already set the fishing boats to neutral, forgetting that SC is a bit of a stupid prog, counting just everything in the target area... So we should set the percentage to 70%, simply because the ships are easy prey for the Beaus and the targets should remain a challenge. For blue bombers, they are on a suicide missions right to the red hornets nest on every run.

What do you think of removing the carrier planes and place the Spit Vb on the island base? We would keep the carriers as targets, could delete the lights which would be unnecessary and prevent 2000m spawns of 120 rounds Seafires.

What do you think about this?

System-M-
20-09-2006, 20:07
I think the seafires should stay on the carrier, it leaves them even more vunerable than at current state where blue have a fairly easy time as it is.

Zorin
20-09-2006, 20:12
I think the seafires should stay on the carrier, it leaves them even more vunerable than at current state where blue have a fairly easy time as it is.

Why is that? When I fly blue, say a 110 or a Ju88, I don't get back without major damages after an attack of the carriers. Even if you manage to down a red plane, there are pletty still around and the others respawn not on egrid away fro you. So where is that an easy time?

System-M-
20-09-2006, 21:31
having the carriers there just as targets I dont like th sound of it also gives a purpose to them having aircraft on them which have to scramble to defend them. I don't know why we are discussing this its the targets redhave to attack thats the major problem inthe map not the spawn points for red which are perfectly fine.

charliechap
21-09-2006, 00:59
A simple solution to this could possibly be to move the carriers slightly further East (in reply to Zorin)....

and to reduce the % of targets that Red have to destroy (in reply to System). The tanks may be historic but the allies have little with which to destroy them...

(and give the allies A20c after manchuria to represent Beauforts which were here in number IRL.)

Firelok
21-09-2006, 10:41
Yeah, sounds reasonable System. I guess Firelok can fix all this. I already set the fishing boats to neutral, forgetting that SC is a bit of a stupid prog, counting just everything in the target area... So we should set the percentage to 70%, simply because the ships are easy prey for the Beaus and the targets should remain a challenge. For blue bombers, they are on a suicide missions right to the red hornets nest on every run.

What do you think of removing the carrier planes and place the Spit Vb on the island base? We would keep the carriers as targets, could delete the lights which would be unnecessary and prevent 2000m spawns of 120 rounds Seafires.

Yeah I'll have a look at this; the fishing boats might as well be blue targets too, it's a little confusing having them in an Axis base and them not being blue. SC registers them as targets (like it does light's;smoke,fires etc.)
so i'll add them and set the seaplane base target to 70%
As for blues targets, well this is more difficult; Zorin is right about how dangerous this sortie is but from my observations most of the pesky red fighters hang around directly over the carriers and make no attempt to intercept those bombers before they've dropped bombs. So the carriers get hit anyways but the bombers don't survive to return to base.
Even if we didn't have carriers as targets but substituted other ships the carriers will get bombed. People just like blowing them up :)

Firelok
21-09-2006, 11:02
Ok, I've altered the target %tage to 70 for the seaplane port, no other changes.

Firelok
12-11-2006, 15:16
Having recieved more complaints over the last few days, I decided it was time to 'do' something about the current Malta map we have. These issues have evolved out of this thread and knock-on effects of changing things have lead us to an unsatisfactory conclusion, Among other things the requirement for 'carrier planes' made us move the SpitfireVb's which caused problems for Blues long flight bombers and then altering the layout of the Island Bases (this last suggestion was mine, and on consideration it sucked.)

So I've produced a hybrid map based on the 'original' still flown on UKDed1 and Zorin's updated version with the nice seaplane base target, the merchant ships and handsome air bases. My additions have been putting back the Desert long-range bomber base and some research influencing the planeset again. Base locations are as set out originally, targets are a combination of both maps, altered for difficulty.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/maltaalt.jpg


PLANESET.
RED
BeaufighterMk21
HurricaneMkIIb
F4F-3
SpitfireMkVc4xH=48
J8A
---------------------------------------------------------------
BLUE
Bf-109F-4
Bf-110G-2=(late war uber stuff restricted)
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-3
Ju-88A-4
MC-202_VII
No HurriIIc's anymore the SpitVc takes off from the carriers as does the
F4F3. Why use the Wildcat F4F3 and the FourCannon Spit?

Having landed her torpedo planes and dive bombers, Wasp loaded 47 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. V fighter planes at the King George Dock, Glasgow, on 13 April 1942, before she departed the Clyde estuary on the 14th. Her screen consisted of Force "W" of the Home Fleet ó a group that included the battlecruiser HMS Renown and antiaircraft cruisers HMS Cairo and HMS Charbydis. USS Madison (DD-425) and USS Lang (DD-399) also served in Wasp's screen.

Wasp and her consorts passed through the Straits of Gibraltar under cover of the pre-dawn darkness on 19 April, avoiding the possibility of being discovered by Spanish or Axis agents. At 0400 on 20 April, Wasp spotted 11 Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighters on her deck and quickly launched them to form a combat air patrol (CAP) over Force "W".

Meanwhile, the Spitfires were warming up their engines in the hangar deck spaces below. With the Wildcats patrolling overhead, the Spitfires were brought up singly on the after elevator, spotted for launch, and then given the go-ahead to take off. One by one, they roared down the deck and over the forward rounddown, until each Spitfire was aloft and winging toward Malta. Here....
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv07-wasp/cv07-wasp.html

I've found other sources that say the Spitfires where 4 cannon Vc versions launched from Wasp.
I think the A20C might be considered as a replacement for the Beaufighter
if we get a torpedo version.
I've added this to the server not as a straight replacement as yet but for separate testing. It's currently called AltMalta.mis

Zorin
12-11-2006, 15:21
I hope the Ju88 and He111 are unrestricted, cause I won't make a 30 minute journey with only 4x 500kgs to run into 4 cannon Spits and Beaus.

EDIT: Especially since you blocked the route from A3 to the carriers with additional targets for the Beaus. I don't think that was a wise idea. Now blue bombers have no spot to sneak through as the whole shore line will be crowded with Beaus..

Zorin
21-04-2007, 00:28
We just played Malta and found the AAA over targets on both sides to be a bit tough. Maybe silencing is messed up a bit, can't tell for sure.

Maybe someone could take a look and while doing it set the limit for the Vc4 to 20 or something? 48 is like no limit at all and so a bit contra productive to the idea of supplying the troops with a limited number of Spitfires.

MajorDamage
21-04-2007, 10:44
We just played Malta and found the AAA over targets on both sides to be a bit tough. Maybe silencing is messed up a bit, can't tell for sure.

All the torpedo boats in A4 (? from memory) were firing - perhaps the sleep times have got messed up somewhere.