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NS-IceFire
04-07-2006, 01:34
After what was maybe 6 months...I have for the first time played the Kyushu revision 2 map today with Firelok and several others. The results were not spectacular or what I expected at all. The map actually cleared half the server out.

So I decided to revise it heavily and start from scratch. I've taken a few notes from some of our other new maps and some suggestions from Firelok and crew for a new design. Here's some preview shots and information on the map.

Kyushu (revision 3)

RED Objectives

Defeat Japanese defense planning by attacking industry and invasion defense preparations.
- Destroy industry in city of Chiran (railcars inside factories)
- Destroy vehicle convoy outside of Chiran
- Destroy tank convoys on roads south of Chiran

RED Aircraft (all airstart)

B-24J Liberator
B-29 Superfortress*

FM-2 Wildcat
F6F-5 Hellcat
F4U-1C Corsair*
F4U-1D Corsair

P-38L Lightning
P-47D-27 Thunderbolt
P-51D-5 Mustang
P-51D-20 Mustang*

Corsair IV
Seafire L III

BLUE Objectives

Defeat American airforce and defend invasion defense preparations.

- Defend industry
- Defend convoy
- Defend tanks

BLUE Aircraft

A6M5 Zero (a, b, c)
A6M7 Zero (62 and 63?)*
J2M3
J2M5*
N1K-2Ja
Ki-43-II Kai
Ki-61 Otsu
Ki-61 Hei
Ki-84 (a, b, c*)
Ki-100

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-01.jpg
Allied aircraft airstart from three airstarts in the south. Blue has two bases, one at Chiran and one to the north west.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-02.jpg
Industrial targets + barrage balloons

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-03.jpg
Industry and flak

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-04.jpg
Vehicle convoy (nearby flak defends)

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-05.jpg
Tank convoy (one of two along the road)

NS-IceFire
04-07-2006, 01:38
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/kyush-rev3-06.jpg
Location for the recovery of Allied aircraft.

The new design eliminates carriers and fleet operations allowing less capable pilots to actively participate in Allied air operations. The airstarts give the Allies a leg up while the two Japanese bases are ideally located to respond rapidly against the Allied air offensive. The base at Chiran allows immediate scramble to defend targets at low altitude while the secondary base to the north west allows J2Ms and N1K-2Js to climb to altitude and intercept the bombers enroute.

With the addition of new Japanese aircraft its become easier to balance the two sides. We now have the ability to put in Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Lightings and Corsairs with little fear that the Japanese will not be able to defend. Ki-84c's will be ideally suited to defend against B-29 bombers and J2M3's will be easily able to match the American and British aircraft.

Seafire's also add to the scenario providing a familiar aircraft to those who normally fly European operations as well as an easy aircraft to fly for newer pilots. Its 4 rockets are also quite fun when attacking tanks and vehicles.

SO...suggestions, comments, fixes...fire away! The map is not fully detailed yet but I thought I should get started and illicit advice.

Yellow 2
04-07-2006, 08:54
Looks good Ice. Just one thing I notice that the British contingent includes the Mark IV Corsair which I believe will be the later version identical to that being flown by the Americans. Just to give some variety, and because it doesn't have that parasol over the canopy, could the British fly the older MK1 bird cage model ? The better visability does make a difference for in cockpit flying, well at least for me.

Cheers :)

Firelok
04-07-2006, 13:20
Looking forward to this revision a lot.
Employing a minor aircraft as a ground start, maybe in this case a red carrier, can allow for easier use of the AI planes as we need to start in a fully flyable first then restart in an AI plane. If everything is airstarted your going to get a lot of folks bailing and reflying straight out of the airstarts or not end up with many B29s which would be a shame.

Gordano
04-07-2006, 18:02
Looks very good IceFire!

I think we will need lots of blue targets or make sure they are well spaced out, so that the Corsairs with full bomb load ie 2000lbs + cannot destroy to many in one pass.

Also ditto what Firelok said regarding having a ground base so people can use the AI planes straight away, possibly using the "recovery" base for this would be an idea?

Xiola
04-07-2006, 19:02
Many targets are preferable to spaced out single targets, everyone feels satisfied destroying 5 or 6 ground targets in one pass. Maybe targets in groups of 5 or 6 cars/trucks?

I cant remember the previous incarnation of this map, so I cannot comment sorry.

Gordano
04-07-2006, 22:11
Xiola,

You hit the nail on the head, nicely spaced out trucks/medium Japanese tanks would make excellent targets!

NS-IceFire
04-07-2006, 22:20
Excellent point about the AI planes and spawning. I had forgotten about that and yes thats very important indeed. So I will make changes.

Yeah targets...I can spread out the vehicle convoys some more. Do you mean between groups or with the actual targets themselves?

Incisor
05-07-2006, 09:16
I am really looking forward to this map. I cant recall a B29 on a UK map, nice.

On the Dortmund map Firelok has put the AI spawn thing up front in the briefing, I think people noticed and in general it works well.

NS-IceFire
23-07-2006, 22:51
Modifications made and the map has been submitted to Firelok. I didn't add anything extra in the briefing about the AI planes...maybe someone can copy and paste.

Zorin
24-07-2006, 01:10
I can't recall haven flown the earlier versions, so bear with me when I may say something wrong, but do you think the distances will work fine? 5 grids to the targets in the town? 4 grids, while climbing, for the interceptors? But if it worked already it is fine with me. Another thing is the position of the blue base near Charin. I can definitly see lots of airfield bombing and rocketing, which will, so being allowed, upset quite some people. I don't know the map, but maybe there is a way to relocate that base.

stanford
24-07-2006, 01:36
4 Grids becomes 2 when you consider both sides will fly towards each other. I much prefer high altitude fighting, 4 grids allows this to occur more frequently.

NS-IceFire
24-07-2006, 04:11
I flew it out in a Dauntless in a reasonable amount of time offline (no time acceleration). I think it'll be fine. As mentioned...with the airstarts and the climbing interceptors the action will be only 2 grids away. I'd say this one is longer by about .5 to 1.5 grids depending on the map. Also considering its late war I'm not as worried...the plane speeds are so much faster.

This is a total redesign so familiarity with the old map is not required :)

As for the base at Chiran...yes it will be a target for Allied fighters and bombers. What the Japanese have on hand is a pretty good compliment of Zeros and J2M3s at that base (in later patches J2M5's as well). So stuff that gets off the ground and climbs quickly. The slower climbing planes from the Army base is to the north so they should be over Chiran with altitude to spare. They get the Ki-84c in limited numbers to combat the B-29s as well.

The Allies will have a tough time cracking the nut...but on the other hand they have immense firepower from fighter-bombers and B-24 and B-29 bombers. It'll all be proof in the pudding when we try it in action and see what people actually do.

But definately good points to bring up. We'll see if the plan out when the mission goes into action.

System-M-
24-07-2006, 10:18
Good to see the 84C is limited its Like the 108 of the Japs, I could see it being used to engage fighters rather than the Bombers limiting them is good means the players should hopefully use their nogggin and go get bombers with it.

NS-IceFire
30-07-2006, 22:21
Yeah I felt it was one of those planes that you can justify being extra special and worth limiting. But I also wanted to have it...because those B-29s are tough to bring down and the Japanese should have some options for bringing them down.

The J2M3 and Ki-84b and 84c should do the trick.

As to how they are used...yeah....upto the competency of the pilots involved.

The 84c isn't as uber as before...roll rate much slower.

Firelok
01-08-2006, 10:47
I have uploaded this for testing.
(Kyushu.mis)
Really looking forwards to flying the B29, thx for your efforts on this one Ice this isn't a Revision though... the only thing that's not new is the name :D

NS-IceFire
01-08-2006, 21:52
Yeah I pretty much did pull all the plumbing out and start over again :)

NS-IceFire
03-08-2006, 03:56
Ok I very much welcome comments at this point as some have now played it. I was able to play it, thanks to Zorin changing the map to it, just tonight (till I had to quickly shut off because of thunder). I think the map was well received. The only complaint I got was that there were no targets for blue. Something I will consider changing...maybe just purely as a bonus target.

But I was having a great time on both blue and red teams. It'll be even more fun when the J2M5 and N1K-2J become available.

Zorin
03-08-2006, 04:04
Yeah, a really nice late pacific mission you created there Ice :) And the distances are no real problem, by late 1944 even the japanese fighters grew on some really competitive speed.

The only flaw is the 84c, which suffers from the same problems the MK108 gondols got banned for. The moment it is used against fighters its firepower is just uber. Even the sturdy P47 is paralized after one 30mm burst.

But as they are only available in few numbers, around 15, I think they won't last any longer than half the mission time.

NS-IceFire
03-08-2006, 04:21
Thanks for your comments. Yep...a bit uber...similar type of weapon infact almost the same design. With the limited numbers I expect they will run out rapidly in a server that has more people in it (we had a prett small number). I put them there because the B-29 and B-24 are very tough nuts to crack so some help is definately needed. The J2M3 and when it arrives the N1K-2J are also good with their 4 20mm cannons as is the Ki-84b so even when the 84c's run out the Japanese have quite a few options open to them.

Firelok
03-08-2006, 23:12
Enjoyed this when we tested it again this evening, however there were a few people who complained about lagginess, don't know what could be done about this, maybe reduce the cloud type by one.
I think a run time of 190mins (i.e.95mins server time) is too long, maybe we could settle for 70-80mins server time.

NS-IceFire
04-08-2006, 02:44
It is a bigger map....you could try reducing the clouds by 1 and see if that helps. I do rather like the thicker clouds and I love the effect they cast on the mountain across from Chiran but see if that helps.

It is a bigger map...it will be more like Baalaton or Normandy. For those with less than 512mb it may hurt a bit more.

NS-IceFire
03-09-2006, 16:38
I haven't personally done a bombing run on that map but I was under the assumption that a B-29 fitted with 20x500lb bombs would lay waste to large quantities of train cars. I was more worried when I made the map that the bombers would flatten the whole target in short order. The tanks and vehicle convoy should be easy to take out by 3 or 4 AP rocket armed Corsairs or P-38s.

NS-IceFire
03-09-2006, 17:42
So what would you most recommend?

More train targets inside of the buildings for greater chances of being hit, fewer for easier completion, or less flak? Or something else?

NS-IceFire
03-09-2006, 22:19
Yep...no problem. I just wanted to see what you were thinking as I know you are well experienced in the area. I'll keep it in mind and see if a revision is necessary.

Its one of my new favourites as far as my own maps go (its harder as the builder to be actually happy with a map) but I think this is my best attempt at using this map so far.

Edit: When the new addon comes and the N1K-2J becomes available...I'll make the Ki-61 Otsu available as well. I had ignored it because I figured I'd be the only one to even think of flying it...although the Ki-100 would be my first choice from the army base...

Xiola
14-09-2006, 17:29
I have found out that the 88m flak guns or any whihch dont produce a 'stream' of fire dont create lag like the smaller mg type flak.

Dunno if this will help. I read it on the warlouds forums, that you should always use the 88 'style' flak if possible rather than the little 20mm types.

NS-IceFire
14-09-2006, 22:01
Yeah definately the lag seems to be caused by alot of flak shells being sent all at once and the bigger ones fire MUCH slower so the lag possiblities are far less. That may be worthwhile to change more over to the 88mm flak or similar japanese version. You still sometimes need to use the shorter range stuff for it to be effective. But this may be a good place to change to the larger type.

Incisor
19-09-2006, 11:59
Ice, this map rocks. Flown it 4 times or so now and really having a great time. I think it works quite well the way you intended it, as a high altitude map. Bombing with the 29, I stay high and usually find a enemy fighter climbing towards me but most of the time above 6000m the empty 29 outclimbs/runs them, which is rewarding. Meeting a fighter at the same altitude is more troublesome, of course.

Anyway, referring to the target discussion above, I think an increase of target density would be a good idea. Level bombing from high altitude with a AI plane is not very easy and takes quite some time. The other day I managed to unload 14 of my 20x1000 bombs in the undamaged target area (northern part of city) and I got only 4 train cars.

Btw, I have a question on the number of targets. I have not seen red win this map yet. Might that be due to a difference in objectives and real targets? After extensive bombing in AN9 there was really not much left, but still the chat gave 39 and 19 targets left to destroy. I tried the airfield but the targets there do not seem to count. Tanks and column were destroyed. Am I overlooking a significant target area?

Xiola
19-09-2006, 16:58
I loved this map the other day when we were playing it togther. (Ice,JTD, Norris, Happy, Algore)

Great fun

NS-IceFire
19-09-2006, 22:54
My guess would be yes that it was used. The Mustangs (exclusively P-51D) had a higher boost settings flying from Iwo and Le Shima than what we've got in game.

I figured that for balance sake the Allies should not get the high boost versions beyond necessary.

I think most of the reason why the Allies do better is more to do with how well known their planes are. I see most Blue pilots in Zero's because they are easier to fly but the J2M3 and Ki-84 are a bit trickier (the Ki-84 has become more tricky I've found) to fly but are far higher performance. The J2M3 and Ki-84 can both outrun Corsairs and Hellcats at low altitude. The Mustang and Thunderbolt are harder to run from but they are also more difficult to fly.

I don't see the map as being too unbalanced. When we were all flying (with Xiola and crew) the Reds were down to about 10 planes when the mission ended so thats about right. Things working in a few different ways and the Blues would have won...or ultimately they did win seeing as they managed to stave off the Red attack. The stats are reset now but I'll be interested to see how the numbers develop for win/loss/tie.

Firelok
20-09-2006, 00:12
I've got nothing to say about the relative strengths of aircraft here but rather about possible rationalization and streamlining. I know from the other thread that you've had success making Remagen more 'flyable' I'm wondering whether that sort of approach could be applied here without compromising the nature of the map.
P.S. I think that the Ki84-c is one mean-ass puppy :p

stanford
20-09-2006, 00:36
I have only had the opportunity to fly the J2M3 once - every time it's on it seems blue outnumber red heavily and I have to go red :/

The one time I flew it though one thought went through my head: short of getting bounced, how the hell does anyone get shot down in this plane? From my short time flying it I considered it absolutely the best plane I've flown in this game.

NS-IceFire
20-09-2006, 04:41
@Firelok: Absolutely...I've got some comments here to take into account. If I can grab some time on the weekend and feel some motivation I'm going to do some similar things to try and tighten things up.

@staford: Yeah that J2M3 is a real gem of a fighter. Good turn, good roll, good cannons, its even pretty solid. Not a bad thing about it. Its not the best at anything but you can be pretty confident in it.

Algorex
20-09-2006, 07:38
J2m3 outclimbs la-7 in a slow climb, it turn a little slower than the ki-84 and is a bit slower. In this map what mostly hurts the blue planes is that most of the fighting is done near the gear change altitude of both the j2m3 and ki-84.

If there would be a situation where most of the regular were on blue, i'd say the reds would have a hard time. This isn't very likely as blue regulary outnumber red.

Incisor
20-09-2006, 22:07
Btw, I have a question on the number of targets. I have not seen red win this map yet. Might that be due to a difference in objectives and real targets? After extensive bombing in AN9 there was really not much left, but still the chat gave 39 and 19 targets left to destroy. I tried the airfield but the targets there do not seem to count. Tanks and column were destroyed. Am I overlooking a significant target area?

When you work on the map, could you check the number of red targets, Ice?

NS-IceFire
20-09-2006, 22:56
Yeah I'll have a look...but it shouldn't be a specific problem. SC calcluates the targets on its own and I just tell it a percentage of destroyed targets.

Had some bombers flattened the city targets on this occasion? I never get to play as red on the map because everyone is hogging the red team so I don't know what its like :)

The target area is everything in the city. Maybe the mission brief needs to be more specific. Basically all of the large industrial buildings have a rail car inside of them. Maybe I need to put more rail cars or put more volatile ones in...

NS-IceFire
15-10-2006, 16:23
Ok I'm working on this map right now. Stuff that I'm intending to change...please let me know if I've missed anything.

- reduction in light AAA over the target area in favour of a few more heavy AAA guns in the hopes of reducing lag
- all tanks are now stationary objects instead of stationary armor (less AI calculations thus less lag hopefully)
- target density will increase, target area will stay the same (for now)
- added Ki-61-Otsu (by request)

Anything else?

NS-IceFire
15-10-2006, 19:05
Mmmm P-38L Late...that'd be so fast. I guess I can limit it so its not too overpowering.

Alot of flak has been removed, some of the flak has been repositioned, and I've tended towards the heavy 88mm flak rather than the light flak except around airfields (just 2 emplacements per airfield) and near the tank targets.

NS-IceFire
16-10-2006, 03:01
Ok...Kyushu has been submitted. P-38L Late added with a 20 plane limit. Also added the N1K-2Ja and Ki-43-II Kai as AI flyable for the future addon pack in November which makes them flyable.

Firelok
16-10-2006, 14:12
Will attend to adding these upgrades to the server ASAP.
Nice one Ice-Fire. :)

System-M-
16-10-2006, 21:46
I hate saying it but this map was great and now it is absolutely AWFUL!

The removal of the P-51, Lightnings and general USAAF Aircraft has just made this map well cr*p.

due to the lack of these aircraft the Ki-84 and J2M have free reign there is no aircraft on red that can even match its speed and firepower.

I have played 20min of this map and the teams were 6 Red 15 Blue.

All of blue was Ki-84, Zeroes and J2Ms.

I don't know why but this has really dissapointed me this map was good and whoevers decision it was to change it made a big mistake. Its now the Balta map of the Pacific with the the japanese aircraft as the La5 FNs and the US as the 109G's

It was far far better as the previous version.

Zorin
16-10-2006, 22:06
Sounds like something with the ini or mission file went wrong, as there were no plans to remove the P51 and such. Maybe while adding the AI planes. Firelok should be able to help clear this up.

Whirlinmerlin
16-10-2006, 22:44
The loss of ecort fighters didn't add up and did ruin it. Chatting together (after encouraging system to post) we did suspect it might be a glitch.

System-M-
16-10-2006, 23:14
Yeh after my arsey post and a bit more talking I guess it must be a ini error or something.

Apologies for my post I was just very dissapointed and looking for fun to find myself in a corsair or hellcat against sooo many japanese planes it just didnt help my "lets cheer myself up on UK2" plan.

:) :) :) :) All good now I know whats up.

NS-IceFire
16-10-2006, 23:52
I hate saying it but this map was great and now it is absolutely AWFUL!

The removal of the P-51, Lightnings and general USAAF Aircraft has just made this map well cr*p.

due to the lack of these aircraft the Ki-84 and J2M have free reign there is no aircraft on red that can even match its speed and firepower.

I have played 20min of this map and the teams were 6 Red 15 Blue.

All of blue was Ki-84, Zeroes and J2Ms.

I don't know why but this has really dissapointed me this map was good and whoevers decision it was to change it made a big mistake. Its now the Balta map of the Pacific with the the japanese aircraft as the La5 FNs and the US as the 109G's

It was far far better as the previous version.
I didn't remove any of those....not sure what is wrong. Thats not the way the file was sent....infact I added the P-38L. Uhhh is the INI screwed up? Did I do that?

stanford
16-10-2006, 23:58
Dammit Ice, you suck.

Try harder.


:fluffle:

*cough* Of course I'm only kidding *cough*

NS-IceFire
16-10-2006, 23:58
I don't see anything wrong here...Firelok or someone else...can you check this on the server?

The USAAF spawn point should have P-38L, P-38L Late, P-47D-27, P-51D-5, P-51D-20. The USN spawn point should have FM-2, F6F-5, F4U-1C, F4U-1D, SBD-5, Cosair Mark IV, Seafire III. The USAAF bomber spawn should have B-29 and B-24J-100.

Firelok
17-10-2006, 02:42
I just checked this using the multiplayer option offline and there are a number of red airstart objects that aren't registering, hence the missing planes. for the time being I'm going to revert the server version to the pre-updated one, I'm sure this is just a hiccup and Ice will sort the new version out for us soon.

NS-IceFire
17-10-2006, 04:16
Thanks Firelok. With your hints in the message here I did some testing, found the same problem, and have sinced fixed it. ZIP sent! Sorry about that everyone...no panick attacks. Although the USN birds should have easily held their own against the Japanese.

Firelok
17-10-2006, 14:35
Fixed version is uploaded.

NS-IceFire
18-10-2006, 00:25
Fixed version is uploaded.
Thanks Firelok! Hopefully this goes well!

NS-IceFire
22-10-2006, 15:17
Got a chance to try it last night...we had a fantastic 6 ship B-29 formation and did some high level bombing with help from a couple of very experienced pilots at the job. I'm going to make a few further changes to this map to try and further reduce lag.

I have reduced the number of barrage balloons. I suspect they cause a bit of extra lag in running the huge collision routine for the tension wires. I haven't removed all of them yet but I've taken the number down. I've also changed cloud cover to Good. Although hazy has a fantastic look to it on the map (particularly on the mountain near Chiran) it hurts the bombers quite a bit and I suspect it may hurt some folks who have low RAM and their system is trying to do everything at once.

Every little bit counts. So I'll submit the updated version when I'm finished with it.

No other changes...I think the formula is great and I had fun flying both blue and red on this map.