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Firelok
19-07-2006, 09:39
I've added an updated version of Dday.mis, most of the work was done by JtD :) I got to add fun stuff like a fleet offshore and some more tanks.
PLANESET


RED
B-25J-1NA
B-24J-100-CF
A-20G
P-38J
P-47D-10
P-47D-22
P-47D-27
P-51C-NT
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkVIII
SpitfireMkVIIICLP
SpitfireMkIXc
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
SpitfireMkIXeHF
TempestMkV
BLUE
Bf-109G-6AS=R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-109G-14=R5-MK108
Bf-109K-4=R5-MK108
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-8=r22mk108
Bf-109G-6_Late=R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-109G-10=R4-MK108
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-9=r22mk108
Fw-190D-9
He-111H-2
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5
Ju-88A-4
Major differences from the older version are more centralized targets, blues now have a bomber force to attack the Allied fleet that's offshore. There is an active landing on the beach with tanks and DUKW's (this is just for colour it's not a designated target) and blues have a wider selection of fighters.
Note that neither side has any limited numbers planes and that blues have 108 gunpods locked on their fighters.We shall see how it tests. :)

Algorex
19-07-2006, 10:10
Bf-109K-4=R5-MK108
Fw-190D-9
SpitfireMkVIII
SpitfireMkVIIICLP

In Normandy summer '44, i just don't see it.

Yellow 2
19-07-2006, 10:14
My thoughts to, I was just about to reach for the reference books. :D

Boemher
19-07-2006, 12:44
Revised planeset suggestion - open to comments :D


B-25J-1NA
B-24J-100-CF
A-20G
P-38L
P-47D-10
P-47D-22
P-47D-27
P-51C-NT
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkIXc
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
SpitfireMkIXeHF
TempestMkV

BLUE

Bf-109G-6AS=R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-109G-14=R5-MK108
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-5 1.65 ATA
Fw-190A-8=r22mk108
Bf-109G-6_Late=R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-110G-2
He-111H-2
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5
Ju-88A-4

Im almost dead certain all of the above were flying in numbers during the period

I switched P38 J for L, removed Spitfire VIIIs as unlikely they would be present likewise removed G10, K4 D9 and A9 as all are late 44 aircraft.
This way the Tempest is fairly competative and the Germans dont have too many uber dogfighters. I would consider removing the G6 AS too or severly limiting its numbers. I added the Fw 190 A5 1.65 ATA as I think most Fw 190s in summer 1944 would be running at this boost setting - the Fw 190 A8 was and it used the same engine as the A4/5/6. The higher ATA setting was cleared for use by this time and would undoubtedly be utilised by all aircraft carrying fuel and a capable engine .

Nice work guys on the new map update Im looking fwd to flying it !

Firelok
19-07-2006, 14:34
RED
B-25J-1NA
P-38J
P-47D-10
P-47D-22
P-47D-27=15
P-51C-NT
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkVIII
SpitfireMkVIIICLP
SpitfireMkIXc
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe=15
SpitfireMkIXeCLP=15
SpitfireMkIXeHF=15
TempestMkV=10
BLUE
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-109G-14=20
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-5165ATA=20
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-8

This is BTW the original planeset.That was on the server for a long time.
I added,as I said, more blue fighters.(Always seems a bit mean they don't get so many choices as reds. :) )
I'm quite happy to go with what Boehmers suggested above :)
****UPDATE*****
Ok I spent twenty minutes altering things a la Boehmer (see above) and his suggestions are the testing planeset for the moment, if anyone's reaching for the reference books :p :D

NS-IceFire
23-07-2006, 22:48
I would agree with Boehmers suggestions. The P-38L and the P-38J-25 that was actually in use at the time (some L's were arriving in May and June) are very similar. Not enough to make a difference.

The FW190D-9 and A-9 didn't arrive until very late in 1944.

The Tempest is a +9lb boost anyways...its not even the type that fought most of the battles. So its perfectly suited to the situation actually.

Mixed opinions on the 109s. I don't think the G-6A/S would hurt things that much. Might be good to have a limited supply perhaps. The G-6 Late is still extremely competitive in this time.

Firelok
01-08-2006, 15:01
I've fixed a few things here, including setting the Landing Craft sleep time to way above the possible length of any mission.(160minutes server time)
I ran it til it timed out this afternoon with no problems.
This is still only a 120min mission (so 60mins real-time) might be worth increasing this along with some of the other 'large-battle' missions on the server as Ice-Fire is suggesting in another thread.

Zorin
22-08-2006, 12:42
How about the G14 Fire?

Firelok
22-08-2006, 16:35
Err, Dude G-14's always been there mate, 108's and all. :)

Zorin
22-08-2006, 16:37
No, the map I mean, which says DDay 1944 in the brief doesn't have them. I checked every time it was up. It has G6 Late and G6 AS.

Firelok
01-09-2006, 18:48
No, the map I mean, which says DDay 1944 in the brief doesn't have them. I checked every time it was up. It has G6 Late and G6 AS.
We have a new thread about this to make things clearer, the map in question is called Bocage.

System-M-
22-10-2006, 02:14
just flew this map with alot of historia guys and our own it was great bar 1 thing which we noticed...

the B-24s would be far better if the had an airstart.

could this be implimented?

Firelok
22-10-2006, 03:03
Well the simple answer is yes, but the thing is should it be implemented.
If an airstart get's added for B24's should we then add one for the Heinkels and Ju88's? I for one would not like to see airstarts as the 'default' bomber option on loads of our maps. I will hold up my hand and admit I've personally added a lot of maps with airstarts to our lists but I'm convinced they should remain 'special'.
In a nutshell I can't see the need for one in terms of map balance most of the ground pounding here is low level Tempests and P38 attacks.
However a 'B24' map a Ploesti or Schweinfurt mission might be real cool adapted for our UKD2 style.

Happy
22-10-2006, 12:52
as an idea what about an airstart for the "heavies"?

it takes so much time to get a liberator high up. besides it's my thought that more people want to try flying one of those big fellow's and it gives jerry a tough mission and target.

besides it's very hard to level bomb from up high.

and a airstart for the jerry bombers why not.

the low ground pounding still can proceed and besides that it will give the A20 and low flying tempest some breathing space since jerry will have to decide which to tackle. just like 1944 they be over taxed in which targets to go for.

I don't think it will make much impact of this map, then again you got more experience in the mapmaking and scenario's so I am just voicing my opinion and thoughts on the matter. :rolleyes:

Firelok
22-10-2006, 19:20
I don't think the focus of this map is and can be heavies. The targets of both sides are laid out for se fighter bombers mainly.
Very much my opinion about this map too.

NS-IceFire
23-10-2006, 02:02
The heavies are fun on that map indeed but I see what you guys are saying too. We did feel that a air start might make things easier but that does give blue a bit of a disadvantage too I suppose.

Firelok
28-02-2007, 14:34
After some comments about this yesterday evening, I wanted to make some things clear. After both me and JtD spending hours on this blighter, I think I'm entitled to make a comment or two about it myself.

Only HALF the fleet needs to be destroyed by Blues,(it says this in the breif)

Blues also need to destroy 70% of two groups of landing craft. The comment about 'I don't like this map it's impossible for Blues to win because every landing craft fires all at once.' this is patently untrue as applied to this map.
The version of DDay that was available early last year (Probably as Objective_DDay) did have these problems. The landing craft are easily destroyed by Strafing but there are quite a few however.(out of all of them maybe 4 are actually firing.)
Two things seem to get regularly ignored here, 1 the Blue base off to the west which has both fighters and bombers(Some of which are only available here.) And there are actually better targets than the enemy airfield.
*Rant mode off*:)

MajorDamage
28-02-2007, 15:30
I'm sure nobody means to insult the skill or intelligence of such distinguished mapmakers as yourself and JtD, Firelok. I wouldn't place too much importance on the flippant remarks of a bunch of half-drunk goons on TS :D

I personally don't have a problem with the number of targets as such. In fact I was the only one on the Blue side flying from the western base and merrily bombing ships. But you have to admit that for whatever reasons the Blues tend not to bother going after the targets, probably because of the very long flight times involved.

Another problem with this map is that the Blues flying from the south eastern bases tend to end up camping the red base - because its a significantly shorter flight to that than it is to the targets they're supposed to defend (let alone attack).

Firelok
28-02-2007, 15:50
True, but the first attempted base attack was going the other way from red to blue.
One of the unusual things about this map is that the actual events we are attempting to portray are in the right location on the actual bit of coastline actually attacked at that time, actually. Perhaps blue and red base are not evil enough in the flak department to discourage such frivolous behaivior(Although I got blasted by 37mm over the Blue base.:rolleyes: )

Firelok
30-04-2007, 17:15
Some alterations again here,


RED
A-20G
B-25J-1NA
MosquitoFBMkVI
P-47D-27
P-51C-NT
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeHF
TempestMkV
BLUE
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-8
Fw-190F-8
He-111H-6
Ju-88A-4

Blues shipping targets shifted west landing craft numbers trimmed and all blue aircraft fly from the western base.
THis is to try and shift the focus to over the invasion beaches rather than airfield to airfield attacks as happened before. As for aircraft restrictions, well...
Bf-109G-6AS=16?
Fw-190F-8=16?
Tempest=16?

So basically I've trimmed the planeset a bit but added the 190F8 (is this suitable??:confused: )

NS-IceFire
30-04-2007, 23:58
F-8 is definitely suitable. Is it available from the western base or only the eastern base at Caen? Most people ignore the eastern base...infact its rare to find anyone there. But thats a much more direct route to attack the ships.

Firelok
01-05-2007, 00:38
F-8 is definitely suitable. Is it available from the western base or only the eastern base at Caen? Most people ignore the eastern base...infact its rare to find anyone there. But thats a much more direct route to attack the ships.

Yep the plan is to just use this western base not the Caen one, this make targets closes than red base, the ships are closer to this now. We shall see if all this makes everyone happier. TBO it's never been about red unhappiness it's been about blues.

NS-IceFire
06-05-2007, 15:32
Oh yeah the Red team loves this map and the targets are very exciting with all of the bunkers and targets with the flak. Absolutely love diving in on that. Its the Blues that feel a little hard done by...course if they used both bases and stopped going for the British airbase then things might be better :)

Firelok
17-05-2007, 09:17
Slightly altered version optimistically titled DDay2 with adjusted Blue targets and
forcing use of the western base...

Firelok
19-05-2007, 11:38
Slightly altered version optimistically titled DDay2 with adjusted Blue targets and
forcing use of the western base...

Tested this yesterday and it worked well, the area of engagement was at or around the targets in grids D/E on the coast. Zero complaints from the blue side. I've corrected the minor blunder I made from using an another version of the planeset and have updated the brief to reflect the new target locations.
I've added DDay2 to the mapcycle replacing DDay.

irish
19-05-2007, 13:42
Tested this yesterday and it worked well, the area of engagement was at or around the targets in grids D/E on the coast. Zero complaints from the blue side. I've corrected the minor blunder I made from using an another version of the planeset and have updated the brief to reflect the new target locations.
I've added DDay2 to the mapcycle replacing DDay.

Heck Yeah.

I would love to see this map get "right".....it seems to be one of the "problem" maps that gets tweaked endlessly.

Boemher
28-05-2007, 14:53
Played this today with around 15 players, lots of high altitude combat going off near the targets and both teams attacking targets. Infact most of the time was spent flying around at 4000m for me.

I left and teams were 9Blue vs 5Red so no complaints from the Blues about team balance.

Zorin
06-08-2007, 00:06
Old story I know, but could we get rid of those annoying landing crafts?

With a full server, even teams, and a dedicated blue bombing group it was impossible to destroy them. Over 30 (only 70% to complete). Reds camped the targets all map long, which was ok for bombing the big ships, but you can't attack small landing crafts with two Tempests and a Spit on your tail, which caught you basically right after take off, one grid from base ;)

Firelok
06-08-2007, 00:28
Aren't landing craft the absolute centre of the idea of DDay?

Anyway looking at the stats (if they can be trusted at the moment) I noticed Reds have handed another thorough thrashing to blues. This seems to happen on every late war western front map we have, I mean when do blues ever do well in these environments?

I was forced to fly blue on Bulge the other day, only option was to run for the targets hammer them and finish the map.

Be honest with me, the only reason that the landing craft are a problem is because it's impossible for blues to 'own' the airspace long enough to cannon the landing craft and finish the map quickly.If I made a list of every late-war western front map statistics for the next month it's going to show blues getting hammered.

Zorin
06-08-2007, 00:38
Aren't landing craft the absolute centre of the idea of DDay?

Anyway looking at the stats (if they can be trusted at the moment) I noticed Reds have handed another thorough thrashing to blues. This seems to happen on every late war western front map we have, I mean when do blues ever do well in these environments?

I was forced to fly blue on Bulge the other day, only option was to run for the targets hammer them and finish the map.

Be honest with me, the only reason that the landing craft are a problem is because it's impossible for blues to 'own' the airspace long enough to cannon the landing craft and finish the map quickly.If I made a list of every late-war western front map statistics for the next month it's going to show blues getting hammered.

Could be true, but whom are we going to blame for it? :confused: :(

Boemher
06-08-2007, 00:55
Could be true, but whom are we going to blame for it?

I blame Blue pilots for not getting the most out of the Fw 190 D9 or the next best Fw 190 available.

The D9 44 is the best prop fighter in IL2 bar none. How many pilots tap in to its potential ? Its easier imo to fly a D9 successfully against a Spitfire IX than it is to fly a Fw 190 A4 against a Spitfire Vb. But too many people are lured by the Bf 109 which is a flying death trap when IXs Tempests and P 51s are available. On DDay the Fw 190 A8 or A6 should be holding their own against everything except the Tempest - which imo is fair because it was an uber plane in this era.


This seems to happen on every late war western front map we have, I mean when do blues ever do well in these environments?


What does the most killing on late war Westen maps for the Red team ? my bet is the Spitfire IX. What aircraft gets shot down the most on the Blue team? 10 says the Bf 109.
There is already a limit on planes like the P 51 and Tempest on most maps its time to start heavily limiting the Spitfire IX too because its the plane which 90% of pilots excell in, if DDay or Bulge or Bocage had no Spitfires at all would the Blue team get so heavily beaten?

Its very early days for the current stat cycle but the Spitfire IXc CW has a 3.3 K/D ratio and the Spit IX H.F has a 2.2 K/D ratio.

I used to fly Blue almost exclusively as did a lot of other regulars who now switch between teams regularly. In the days where most regulars flew Blue, the Axis side used to dominate maps. It got to the stage where I started flying the Spitfire to even things up against the 7BP squad who always loaded the Blue team and ruined the map balance. The real killer planes for Blue team are not Bf 109 G2s or Bf 109s with Mk 108s they are groups of Fw 190s flying together. 4 x 20mm cannon blow things up whether they are mounted in a Japanese, British or German plane. Blue are getting a pounding these days because there arent enough people flying 190s imo and there are too many people on Blue getting shot down in their Bf 109s because the Spitfire IX out everythings the mid to late war Bf 109.

Zorin
06-08-2007, 01:06
I agree the D9 is the best plane. But there is no D9 on this map. Anyway, the problem is that I can adopt the right tactics against a turn fighter = Spit OR an energy fighter = Tempest/P51. But having to deal with both at the same time is impossible.

In the late war scenarios all blue planes are doomed to be flown as energy fighters. Especially by the arrival of the G6 the 109 looses all its agility to an unspecified gain in nothing.

Sonko
06-08-2007, 01:13
On late war maps the 109 is "good" at low altitude because then the controls give more response than at alt, I guess you all know that. On late maps the 109 is best to use it as a Jabo, better don't use it at all, its a deathtrap, just as boemher says. It's even more a deathtrap on cockpit-only servers because of its poor view out of it.

The only two things that bother me with the landing crafts are that:
1. They count as ships and need a direct hit to get destroyed, even when attacking them with bombs.
2. They are pretty far away from the airbase, although they have been moved closer to the action some months ago.

The best solution would be to move the red base more to the north, but this is impossible. in short, I have no idea what to do.

Boemher
06-08-2007, 01:20
I've just thought about this from a different angle. Late war Eastern Front maps dont seem to be too one sided with Blue doing ok even when faced with La5FN or Yak 3s. Yet Iron Curtain indicates an imbalance in favour of the Russian team againsy the same all conquering RAF and USAAF planes.

Its a 3 way conunndrum: VVS>RAF/USAAF>Luftwaffe>VVS

Boemher
06-08-2007, 01:25
I agree the D9 is the best plane. But there is no D9 on this map.

I understand this is a problem. Yet the Fw 190 A8 and A6 are more than sufficient to hold their own if there are enough of them. On maps which feature the Fw 190 D9 when flying Red you are faced with a big problem. If you want to match its performance above 3000m you have to take a P 51 but then you have insufficient firepower to shoot them down. So you take a Spitfire and then you cant catch them. So you take a Tempest but then the D9 climbs ....

On all maps there is one plane which is better than its opponents.

What we are seeing on a lot of maps is people making mistakes and planes which are very effective and easy to fly and fight prosper. The Spitfire shouldnt be as effective as it is but people flying Blue insist in playing its game time after time after time.

Sonko
06-08-2007, 01:30
Yep, I noticed too that even the 109G6 can do pretty well against La5's and Yak, either at low and high altitude. I blame it on the relatively low high-alt performance of the russian planes. The Yak has no high-power elevator like the Spitfire and the La5 is as heavy as a fully loaded lorry.

Firelok
06-08-2007, 10:11
Could be true, but whom are we going to blame for it? :confused: :(

The landing craft are essential in my view, so you can blame me. Why not, join the club.;) :rolleyes:

These were always here on DDay and they are a lot less nasty now, dropping bombs on them is a bit pointless IMHO (maybe AB bombs) and they are definately strafe-able.

I'm sure a cloud of well organised FWs might do OK (especially coordinated via TS) but as Zorin has said here, Reds have a plane for all types of combat.

Really this is a 'fantasy' map as no large scale engagements took place. I think the LW ran 150 odd sorties over the beaches (all FWs:D ) the Allies ran 16,000.

Blues way to ruin Reds chances of winning the objectives is to have some energy fighters lurking over the inland Panzer targets, which take time to reduce (They are JagdPathers etc.)

So you could argue for a 100% FW190 fighter/Jabo make-up for blues planes
but it's the makeup of Reds forces that are an issue.

I hate this map. There are others that I've had an idea ,chucked it together in an afternoon, tested it, tweaked it once and that's it never another post or complaint just sweet flying. This thing has had numerous 'fathers' including 2 or 3 major revisions in the last year and there is still problems with it.

It's very easy to alter the ratio of destruction for the targets, maybe even make just the offshore large ships the one blue target but I still think we'll have posts here about it.

Boemher
06-08-2007, 10:43
Yep, I noticed too that even the 109G6 can do pretty well against La5's and Yak, either at low and high altitude. I blame it on the relatively low high-alt performance of the russian planes. The Yak has no high-power elevator like the Spitfire and the La5 is as heavy as a fully loaded lorry.

Its funny then that the Spitfire ect has a very tough time against the Russian equipment. Is a three way paper scissors stone balance which is pretty delicately balanced.

For the Luftwaffe they are always fighting opposition that can out turn them for example the I-16 or Spitfire or Hurricane. But for most of the war usually they can rely on being faster and usually better armed. Come the early Late War maps their speed advantage is all but gone when faced by the P 51 and Tempest V while their turning performance has relatively worsened still. However this problem exists only on a handful of maps because as soon as the Fw 190 D9 and Me 262 arrive the situation is back to normal.

There are two map maker solutions that can affect this Plane balance. One is to handicap the Red team by introducing a Spawn limited Spitire only base (probably not applicable for DDay but certainly is for other maps). The other is to add the Bf 109 G2 to give the Blues their own stellar turn plane.

Firelok
06-08-2007, 12:09
There are two map maker solutions that can affect this Plane balance. One is to handicap the Red team by introducing a Spawn limited Spitire only base (probably not applicable for DDay but certainly is for other maps). The other is to add the Bf 109 G2 to give the Blues their own stellar turn plane.

Or alter the number and type of Spits available, i.e. Limit the IXs but add an earlier version that was still being used. Pretty much as we did with Monte Cassino.

As for the 109G2 :eek: I have no idea when they stopped using them in France, does this matter? as this might be an occaision when we have to bend things to get the fun spread more evenly?

Boemher
06-08-2007, 12:35
There is a wierd problem with the G6 and G6 late. The G2 has great performance but for some reason the G6 is awful. I think we have a early version G6 Late that doesnt meet its real performance figures. There is a bit of confusion as to whether it has 1.42 ATA or not. The G2 on the other hand has a blend of 1.3 and 1.42 ATA performance and has great turn speed and climb. The G6Late should match this very closely but falls short.

To cut a long and boring story short the G6 in real life wasnt a million miles away from the G2's performance unlike in IL2 so a G2 for the Blues wouldnt be that bad a move here.