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Firelok
20-07-2006, 14:18
After some sustained whining the other night, I thought it would be useful to set out my ideas concerning Mk108s and BTW other weapons such as VVS rockets and VYa-23 23 mm Cannon.
If it's a gunpod version of the Mk108 it's not likely to be included. However those late war Luftwaffe fighters that have it as a nose cannon option may sometimes have it available, particularly if it's a limited numbers plane. This applies in general to rocket armed VVS fighters too and the VYa-23 23 mm Cannon.
So essentially these loadouts are not subject to a blanket ban but are very rarely available as a speciality on certain maps.

Yellow 2
20-07-2006, 16:05
Nice to see that see that we may get a chance to fly a LaGG with some punch. :D

Just to clarify the position regarding the LaGG and the VYa cannon I thought that not having it was some form of compensation for those who complained that the LaGG damage model made it difficult to shoot down. Since then Oleg has added more weight to the LaGG 3s making them less maneuverable and therefore easier to hit. Is that not enough compensation? Is the 23mm such a fearsome weapon?

As for the German Mk108 I believe that it was primarily introduced to counter the American daylight bomber raids and not as a general fighter weapon as it was discovered that few shot down B17s had been hit by less that twenty 20mm rounds. An analysis of gun camera footage concluded that the average pilot hit the target with less than two percent of rounds which implied that one thousand 20mm rounds would have to be fired to bring down one B17. Another German analysis estimated that to have a 50% chance of success against a heavy bomber at 500 metres range 200 rounds of 20mm ammunition would have to be fired or 48 rounds of Mk108. An increase to 275 and 88 rounds respectively was necessary to achieve a kill probabilty of 95%.

Anyway whatever the outcome it's good to see that the blanket ban is being reconsiderd.

Zorin
20-07-2006, 17:13
Any map with the B25 `43 present should have MK 108 option. I'm not talking about the gunpods, which btw make it pretty difficult to dogfight in general, first pass miss and the enemy is in advantage, but as people will keep complaining I just want to see the nosecannon allowed in general. Which makes the 109 pretty noseheavy, but atleast you than have the chance to down a B25 and not having to let it run home burning and succefully landing cause your engine is dead and all your ammo is used up.

I'm well aware that the Fw is able to down a B25, but it takes way more skill to fly the Fw properly, which should be considered.

Firelok
20-07-2006, 17:59
My ideas generally are that these are all powerful and rare weaponry that should be used in maps occaisionally; Adding an extra element of excitement when used sparingly.
Specifically the Vya armed LaGG is on two maps both present in single figure numbers.

NS-IceFire
20-07-2006, 22:10
Any map with the B25 `43 present should have MK 108 option. I'm not talking about the gunpods, which btw make it pretty difficult to dogfight in general, first pass miss and the enemy is in advantage, but as people will keep complaining I just want to see the nosecannon allowed in general. Which makes the 109 pretty noseheavy, but atleast you than have the chance to down a B25 and not having to let it run home burning and succefully landing cause your engine is dead and all your ammo is used up.

I'm well aware that the Fw is able to down a B25, but it takes way more skill to fly the Fw properly, which should be considered.
I can shoot down 1 or 2 B-25s with the nose MG151/20 very easily. Just aim for the wing and chop it off. Its not such a huge chore to bring down a B-25. The weapon works fine but often people are not hitting with enough rounds. This is aim and skill and part of how it works...MK108 is a nightmare for B-25 pilots. I personally would not want to see the MK108 fitted until 1944 when it really began to show up in units.

Try flying the B-25 being hit by MK108s for a while...its just as bad as the nose flip with the VYa 23mm on the IL-2s against the Bf110s.

Zorin
14-08-2006, 02:47
There is something odd I discovered. On the channel 43 map there is no loadout restricted, only the Fws are limited in numbers. I think you should change that to all MK108s locked. BUT on the DDay map, you should unlock them or give blues a G14. June 1944 is absolutely legitmate to atleast make that change and unlock the MG151 on the G6s.

NS-IceFire
14-08-2006, 03:03
Zorin...you have something against the B-25 don't you. Its REALLY not that tough. Try flying one and getting shot at for a while. You will cherish Blue pilots with no aim and 20mm cannons. I slaughtered a pair of them a few weeks ago in a 109G-6. Not the planes problem.

It is odd that the restrictions are as such. On D-Day at least some of the planes I believe had MK108 fittings. But not many. Keep it away from the FW190s I think.

System-M-
14-08-2006, 03:07
Im liking it at the moment with 108s lacking. you can get really good dogfights going, so much ore fun than hearing BOOM BOOM BOOM BANG! BAIL! everytimg you engage in combat. I think the policy works at the moment where it is aloud on some maps and not om others.

Zorin
14-08-2006, 11:44
Well, back in the days when Daytrader was online more often, I flew with him B25 formations and the only thing I had to worry about was a good pilot in a Fw. But as we know that doesn't happen too often, which resulted into 2-3 kills in one sortie and getting home 90% of the time. And that was before the MK 108 policy ;)

And Ice, if I can fly back home over 3 grids and land with no prob with my fuel tanks on fire, there is soemthing wrong with a plane ;)

And my point here was, why allow all loadouts on a 43 map and lock them on a mid 44 map.

Algorex
14-08-2006, 12:19
Channel 43 needs an overhaul anyway, it's a spitparadise (read short distances and spit mk9s) until they run out mk9s and the teams go blue heavy. That is if there isn't 7 regulars flying p-38s, which makes the map quite enjoyable on both sides.

Downing a B-25 has never been an issue to me in FWs or in G2s, a good burst to the wing just outside of the engine and they spiral down like maple seeds.

NS-IceFire
14-08-2006, 22:27
Well, back in the days when Daytrader was online more often, I flew with him B25 formations and the only thing I had to worry about was a good pilot in a Fw. But as we know that doesn't happen too often, which resulted into 2-3 kills in one sortie and getting home 90% of the time. And that was before the MK 108 policy ;)

And Ice, if I can fly back home over 3 grids and land with no prob with my fuel tanks on fire, there is soemthing wrong with a plane ;)

And my point here was, why allow all loadouts on a 43 map and lock them on a mid 44 map.
You're lucky. My tanks always explode...

Firelok
14-08-2006, 22:56
Will have a look at DDay (which is fairly new) and Channel43 which passed into the recent changes almost unaltered.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 14:12
I've attended to Channel43 as follows...
Mk108 oversight corrected (the G6 and 110 are back to the usual mid-war limitations.)
Less Spit IXc's.
The northern airbase (which is a target for reds here) is no longer an active base for blues all plane types are available at the southern base now.I did this to decrease the incidence of take-off strafings that happen when an airbase is also a target. Also the ship convoy is no longer a collection of rapid firing 'veteran' ships this has been toned down.
We shall see how this all pans-out in time.
DDay, less restrictions on Mk108's here but some are still in force.(primarily gunpod 108s)

Zorin
16-08-2006, 14:22
Sounds promesing Fire :)

Did you give us a G14 on DDay?? It's not as fast as a G6AS, but somehow I don't fry my engine as easly as on the G6AS ;)

Firelok
16-08-2006, 14:28
Sounds promesing Fire :)

Did you give us a G14 on DDay?? It's not as fast as a G6AS, but somehow I don't fry my engine as easly as on the G6AS ;)
Will have a look at the G-14 situation, will take a little longer will keep you updated on the DDay thread.

Zorin
16-08-2006, 14:31
Ok, thank you mate :)

Zorin
16-08-2006, 19:57
DDay is on but with all restrictions still in place.

Firelok
16-08-2006, 20:26
DDay is on but with all restrictions still in place.
Bf110 unrestricted, 109G6A/S has nose cannon 108's. G-14 is in now BTW.

What we have here (and this is why I started the thread) is a dilemma;
1. there are those who think these weapons (108's,BK,Vya,rockets) shouldn't be restricted at all.
2. There are those who think that they are ill-modelled and are used for tasks that are 'un-historical' and they unreasonably unbalance certain planesets.

I'm sure there a middle path here, that allows them to be present but not unduly disrupt things.

LeVola
19-08-2006, 18:04
In Hartmans book, one of his mates got 109 with 108s. Eastern front. He said it was like mortar hit the hill side, when they tested it first time.

Rockets I dont like because those are way too accurate here.

reverendkrv
19-08-2006, 19:04
the only problem i have with 108's is when they are used against other fighters...especially when they are sprayed in the hope of a hit ;)

get rid of them,maybe people will enjoy the longer dogfights & the fact you need to shoot better :D

NS-IceFire
19-08-2006, 19:26
the only problem i have with 108's is when they are used against other fighters...especially when they are sprayed in the hope of a hit ;)

get rid of them,maybe people will enjoy the longer dogfights & the fact you need to shoot better :D
Still remember that they are part of the default armament of the late war 109s. Use of the MK108 goes up considerably in late 1944 and 1945 type aircraft. Until then their use should be severely limited but in the late war arena the need for firepower that is quick and decisive is crucial because the speed of the warfare is quite a bit faster than in 1943 or 1942.

I'm not in favour of removing them all over. But I would like to see them used where historically noteable. For instance the Bf109G-14, which in-game is a Hungarian '44 built model (not the German model) has a MK108 and that was installed in the factory. German models had a mix of both.

I think it has to depend on scenario and not personal preference. You may not like something but if its supposed to be there it should. Just sounding things off...

Yellow 2
19-08-2006, 22:03
Don't forget the Laggs and the Vya cannon it would be nice to fly one once in a while. :D

reverendkrv
20-08-2006, 00:18
no doubt Ice,that they do have their place,but i am under the impression that they were designated for bomber killing,not because the pilots back then needed to have the slight chance that the biggest guns were there too make up for any lack of pilot skill? ;)

I'm all for historical accuracy,i just dont like getting hosed by some clown(no offence)that cant shot for manure....and that i think is why a majority do use the 'best.biggest gunned' aircraft available.

it just seems a bit lame to me,that people will use the 'best' aircraft available,because it's easier,or less effort to get results.

thats just my thoughts on it ;)

NS-IceFire
20-08-2006, 06:07
I know what you mean. In the online world the biggest guns are often used to supplement real gunnery skills. Nonetheless...my answer to that is to be one step ahead and never give them the chance. MK108s are good for spraying but not THAT good. The muzzle velocity is low so be quick I guess is all I can say.

MK108s were not used specifically for bomber attack. They were meant to bolster the firepower of the 109 and 190 for the purposes of bomber attack and fighter combat. Although Luftwaffe doctrine was increasingly towards attacking bombers (thus needing the MK108's firepower)...the facts of WWII air combat was that you needed to hit even fighters hard and fast because lining up behind an enemy fighter was becoming an increasingly rare event.

The reason British fighters were all 20mm cannons by 1945 was because it was felt that if faced with a jet fighter combat (jet vs prop or jet vs jet) that you needed a one shot kill or one shot cripple ability. A single burst should be enough to cause so much damage as to cripple said enemy plane as moments would be all you had.

By 1945 MK108s were standard fit on many 109s although MG151/20s are found on models as well. In fighting Tempests, Spitfires, and Mustangs during that period the MK108 was turned against fighters with devastating results. The worst part of the weapon...and the reason its not a true bomber or fighter killer is the low muzzle velocity. High fire rate but low muzzle...its too slow to really lob it at an aircraft from a distance so proper and effective use of the MK108 is to get close and rapidly hit from there.

But I know what you mean...it shouldn't be a crutch. But it is. I try and stay one step ahead. I prefer not to see it removed simply because its not liked...but because it shouldn't be there. That was a constant source of pain for me when flying 1942 scenarios with the Bf110...I was always in the suffering IL-2s. But in 1945...you'd expect it as necessary.

Firelok
20-08-2006, 09:41
But I know what you mean...it shouldn't be a crutch. But it is. I try and stay one step ahead. I prefer not to see it removed simply because its not liked...but because it shouldn't be there. That was a constant source of pain for me when flying 1942 scenarios with the Bf110...I was always in the suffering IL-2s. But in 1945...you'd expect it as necessary.
What we've got here is a situation where reality diverges from what's neccessary to make the game fun for as many people as possible. There are arguements elsewhere (and I'm not going into them now) that the 108's in Forgotten Battles are way too accurate and have a much longer effective range than should be so.
However in general the 108 is present as a nose-cannon option in a lot of our late-war scenarios, it's the gun-pods that are often restricted more.
BTW if there are weapon restrictions (or the lack of them) that you're particularly concerned about on individual scenarios don't just suffer in silence post about it on the relevant map thread or start a new one. As you can see the sheer volume of map updates that have happened recently means a few errors (as with Channel42, above.) do occur, If they're pointed out they can be attended to :)

LeVola
20-08-2006, 15:16
If someone says that 109 with 30mm under wings is a hard targets, is talking bull xxx.
Just try to dogfight, with 20mm or 30mm under wings. Even 190F8 with a 700kg bombs turns better;)

People just dont want to die after 1-3 hits. Well that is not far from RL.
With 20mm, easy to hit but you need many hits(too many, Oleg world)
With 30mm, harder to hit but only few hits needed(one time 11 to down La7 with 262)

Just test 30mm you see how esy it really is. When there is Spit IX turning to your 6.

Soviet rockets used in early/mid war, is not that realistic.
But even me as a bomber pilot can live with that. Soviets used air to air rockets vs. FinAF during the war but they didnt shoot a single plane down...

Zorin
20-08-2006, 15:19
So true LeVola. You can't fight with a 109 and gondolas. Your only chance is to surprise your enemy and kill him on first pass, if you don't hit, you're easy prey.