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Firelok
21-07-2006, 06:43
JtD's thoroughly overhauled Byelorussia, featuring new targets for blues, reorganised reds targets. Planetypes distributed between the much nicer bases, the IARc, Bf110 and Pe2 all make an appearance now.

Firelok
31-07-2006, 21:14
Have fixed this problem, frontlines are back.

Chatanooga
21-08-2006, 12:12
We were playing this map yesterday and I noticed a number of complaints about the I-16's from the blue team about the I-16 being an uber plane and far to good, thus causing inbalance on the map. Now I enjoy flying I-16's despite all of their little quirks.

So I had a check of the stats today to see what effect the I-16's had on the results

Plane Kills

Red 33
Blue 34

Fighters

Red 23
Blue 20

Bombers

Red 10
Blue 14

Seems fairly balanced there.

Anyway onto the I-16's specifically

I-16 Kills

1 x 109 E7
3 x 109 F2
2 x 110 G2
1 x HE111 H2
1 x IAR81A

I-16 Deaths

1 x Landscape
1 x Flak
3 x 109 F2
6 x 110 G2

So the I-16's managed to shoot down 8 out of the 33 kills red enjoyed (24%)
However they accounted for 11 out 34 of their losses (32%)

Whilst I can see why I-16's annoy people, do to their manouverability, I must emplore that these people who were complaining try the I-16's for themselves. They are not as good as you all make out. The engines stall in reverse G situations, its extremly easy to stall one wing and put yourself into a spin, there is almost no pilot protection at all, and they are slower than almost all of the blue planes on the map apart from the He111.

I-16 type 24: 439 kmh at sea level
109 F2: 510 kmh at sea level
109 E7: 476 kmh at sea level
IAR81A: 478 kmh at sea level

110 G2: 507 kmh at sea level

I must admit that I fail to see these huge advantages that people were complaining about. Yes if you try to turn fight them its very difficult to stay on an I-16's six. However if the Blue fighters use their speed advantage its extremely difficult for the I16 pilot to get off a good shot. Although it is possible I'm just a really bad I-16 pilot. If you find yourself with an I-16 on your six, just run away you will leave him in your dust. The I-16 will overheat in prolonged chase and isnt as solid in a high speed dive.

The best thing to do if your a blue fighter is to leave the I-16's alone, let them suicide on the 110 G2 rear gunners.

Have I got it completly wrong am I missing somthing that I dont do that makes the I-16 uber?

or are we looking at one of those grass greener other side situations ?

EDIT:

Thought I'd do a little more research. Using the UKD2 stats page.

This isnt a complete list just some examples

Kill / Death ratio's

1.65: FW190A-4
1.51: J2M3
1.35: Spit VIII
1.11: LA5FN
1.11: P39Q-1
1.08: A6M5
1.00: B239
0.97: Spit Vc
0.95: FW190A-9
0.92: I16 type 24
0.90: Spit IXe
0.87: Spit Vb
0.81: FW190A-5
0.81: P40E
0.81: 109G10
0.80: I16 SPB
0.74: I16 type 18

Zorin
21-08-2006, 12:28
Well, it is pretty useless to compare max speed here Charlie. In a dogfight, you rarely have the time to fly straight long enough to reach your top speed. The regular max speed in 1941 you'll reach is around 400km/h flying straight before anything happens you have to react to. That gives an I16 24 a lot of time to shoot you down. She is over armed, to put it simple. It has the armament of an La5 plus 2 x 7.62 mm MG (ShKAS), paired with the ability to turn on a coin and carry two FAB250 under its wing, she is totally absurd.

And leave them in the dust..Chatanooga, a plane needs to accelerate and that takes time, but as you can only gain speed if you flight straight you can't evade the 4 guns of the I16 without again loosing speed.

And the negative G thing. With the aid of F6 and the ability to turn so tight, you can avoid it with a roll dive and still be on the enemy without a prob.

And high speed dives? When did you last encounter a I16 above 2000m?

And when a plane, without being flown by ace pilots, scores 1/4 of all kills on a map, yet being an obsolete design by 1939, doesn't this make you suspicious of it?

Chatanooga
21-08-2006, 12:58
I thought the complaint was that the I-16 unbalanced the map, the above figures show that it didnt unbalance the map.

PS I think that both 110G2 and 109F2 had more kills each than the I-16's

With regards to the actual succesfullness of I-16's and the sheer numbers of them used, have a look here

from http://www.aviation-history.com/polikarpov/i16.html

This is a nice quote

"When the Germans invaded Russia in June 1941, the I-16 was still Russia's most important fighter and, in spite of being obsolete, well over half of the 7,000 built were flown in action until 1943. One of the most startling uses of the tiny but rugged fighter came ramming attacks. Pilots were taught to hit the tail surfaces of German bombers, then bail out. In theory, the strength of the I-16 would allow the pilot grace to bail out afterwards.

If German pilots decided to out maneuver the I-16 in dogfights, which invariably bleed off speed, they were usually caught by surprise as the Russian pilot quickly got the upper hand. However, against slashing climbing and diving attacks, the I-16 was in trouble."

If you BnZ a I-16 you will usually come out on top, try to turn fight it and you will end up in trouble. At lreast thats my experiance.

Zorin, try them somtimes and see if they are as deadly as you think.

Gordano
21-08-2006, 13:00
Well, it is pretty useless to compare max speed here Charlie. In a dogfight, you rarely have the time to fly straight long enough to reach your top speed.

I have to say that tactics are the solution here, almost all of the aircraft in IL2 have an advantage of some sorts over an adversary.

Put quite simply, you should not enter a turn fight with an I-16 unless absolutely neccesary. Instead use altitude and in turn your speed to your advantage.

This is one of the features I like about our planesets and the thought map makers put into them, the fact that you have to put some thought int to your flying and employ some decent tactics to ensure you get your kills and survive.

Personally if you are daft enough to try and turn and burn with an I-16 in a 109 you deserve to be shot down :)


She is over armed, to put it simple. It has the armament of an La5 plus 2 x 7.62 mm MG (ShKAS), paired with the ability to turn on a coin and carry two FAB250 under its wing.

Using the features of SC can we eliminate the bombs? Obviously this will remove their ground attack ordanance and relegate them to purely a fighter or escort role, I'm not sure how many people actually use them as a ground attack aircraft so I can't say whether this would actually redress any of the balances.

For other maps, maybe preference should be given to the MG only version of the I-16 to remove the cannons if there are issues over their perceived uberness?


And leave them in the dust..Chatanooga, a plane needs to accelerate and that takes time, but as you can only gain speed if you flight straight you can't evade the 4 guns of the I16 without again loosing speed.


Again tactics young grasshopper :D

Push your nose down hard, you gain speed in the descent and his engine starts to get upset with all the negative G, also with cockpit on dropping under his nose makes aiming for him a harder task.

Zorin
21-08-2006, 13:26
The quote has nothing to do with our problem here. We are not talking about ramming I16s. Btw, they are relating to the I16 18 not the 24 ;)

@Gordano

1. I didn't turnfight with the I16. I hit him, he was like 500m above ground, and started to run to get away. And he still perforated my plane...

2. I have no problem with the I16 18, we could have them on any map you like. Limiting the two 250kg would be an option but the SPB guys will start to whine cause they'll lose the fun without the bombs...

3. Where should I push my nose down into when I'm 200m above the ground? You are missing the point here, you usually don't find I16s up high, they are down low.

Firelok
21-08-2006, 13:29
More importantly the outburst from certain quarters over this issue yesterday afternoon fell far short of what we have a right to expect.
It made me angry and disgusted, I left.
(p.s. it made me want to create endless early war russian front scenarios involving cannon armed I16 too.)

My Pointless technical details section
Byelorussia planeset red side.....
I-153M62
I-153P
I-16type18
I-16type24=20
LaGG-3series4=20
MiG-3ud
TB-3_4M-17
I-16type24_SPB=20
Il-2_1940_Early
Il-2_1941_Late=6
Pe-2series1
TB-3_4M-34R_SPB=10
Yak-1

i-16type24(SPD) is limited and there to couple with the TBD (SPD) which takes ages and is of less than negligible use but good fun so it's in.

I dare you to fly this plane Zorin, when it's available, step out of your little 109 bubble world and find out more about what your complaining about.
Nothing more frustrating for an i16 pilot to see his uncatchable enemy dissappear into the distance.

Zorin
21-08-2006, 13:42
More importantly the outburst from certain quarters over this issue yesterday afternoon fell far short of what we have a right to expect.
It made me angry and disgusted, I left.
(p.s. it made me want to create endless early war russian front scenarios involving cannon armed I16 too.)

My Pointless technical details section
Byelorussia planeset red side.....
I-153M62
I-153P
I-16type18
I-16type24=20
LaGG-3series4=20
MiG-3ud
TB-3_4M-17
I-16type24_SPB=20
Il-2_1940_Early
Il-2_1941_Late=6
Pe-2series1
TB-3_4M-34R_SPB=10
Yak-1

i-16type24(SPD) is limited and there to couple with the TBD (SPD) which takes ages and is of less than negligible use but good fun so it's in.

I dare you to fly this plane Zorin, when it's available, step out of your little 109 bubble world and find out more about what your complaining about.
Nothing more frustrating for an i16 pilot to see his uncatchable enemy dissappear into the distance.

Nothing more frustrating for an 109 pilot to see his uncatchable plane being shot up by an I16 24....

And that is why I had my little outburst yesterday, and I wasn't alone with my opinion, so stop bashing me for being a 109 bubble guy. It's not like I'm the only one complaining about it.

And 40 I16 24s is a bit over the top.

Gordano
21-08-2006, 14:19
The quote has nothing to do with our problem here. We are not talking about ramming I16s.

I believe this was the part of the quote which was intended to bear most relevance to this discussion.

"If German pilots decided to out maneuver the I-16 in dogfights, which invariably bleed off speed, they were usually caught by surprise as the Russian pilot quickly got the upper hand. However, against slashing climbing and diving attacks, the I-16 was in trouble."

And this is how you should employ your tactics to counter I-16, you shouldn't be caught low and slow unless you are taking off or landing.

Chatanooga
21-08-2006, 14:22
The bits in the quote I think are relevant are




well over half of the 7,000 built were flown in action until 1943.

Yesterday some of the complaints (and yes I do realise that Zorin wasnt the only person complaining) were about that I-16's were used to much on UKD2 maps, from what I read (and I admit my knowledge of wII planes isnt huge) they were used alot up untill '43, so should be an option on alot of russian scenarios. I will admit im not sure about how much the type 24 was used compared to the type 18.

The other relevant part is




If German pilots decided to out maneuver the I-16 in dogfights, which invariably bleed off speed, they were usually caught by surprise as the Russian pilot quickly got the upper hand. However, against slashing climbing and diving attacks, the I-16 was in trouble."

If you are going to engage an I-16 at low altitudes at the same speed as them, yes you are at a disadvantage (one of your comments yesterday was that the I-16 kept up with you at 400 kmh, what are you doing only going at 400 kmh when you should have started the attack from a height advantage, giving you more than 400 kmh speed. If you didnt have the height advantgage to allow this a higher speed then you did give the advantage to the I-16 pilot). Because I-16's tend to keep low altitudes on purpose most fighters attacking them do so from a higher altitude, giving them more relative speed at the begining of the encounter. From what I read, and from personal experiance an axis fighter with an altitude advantage who attacks from height can retain their energy, thus allowing them an escape (I believe this is so in almost any engagement no matter what planes are involved). I think im correct in saying that the 109 F2 has a greater climb rate than the I-16. With the height advantage you choose when to attack, you just need to make sure that your timing allows you the escape route that will continue to give you an advantage. Some of the more regular flyers of I-16's recomend convergance settings of 4-500m purely to allow you a greater chance of catching a fighter dive/climb attacking opponent (because a successfull attack against you will involve somone diving from above to make ONE pass then climb stright away, this usually only allows the I-16 to make ONE snap shot as you pass and then climb out of reach.

Also in my original post I have listed some K/D ratios, and I do admit that the I-16 scores fairly high, although there are alot of planes that score higher.

Perhaps if more maps gave people the choice of flying I-16's the axis pilots would become more practiced at tactics to deal with them. I do believe in real life alot of Axis fighter pilots ignored low flying I-16's as they posed little threat when below them. Somtimes its not worth chasing a kill if the opponent is of no threat.

come fly some with me sometime Zorin, I can g'tee your opinions will change, even if only a little.

Zorin
21-08-2006, 15:18
Most of the 7000 I16s produeced were destroyed on the ground during 1941. There were around 900 24s build, so I guess you get the picture how often we should see them ;)

If you read that they were in service till 1943 that has little to no value, cause we don't know in what service they were. Even at the frontline not every plane is used as a fighter...

Chatanooga
21-08-2006, 16:56
Well from what I've been reading today the Type 24 shouldnt have cannons, thats a Type 28.

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_I-16

However the Historical accuracy of IL-2 has been questioned many a time, the more important question is does this plane cause an inbalance of this map (or other maps)

We know that I-16's were well used during WWII even though we dont have all of the variants available.

Personally I dont think the inclusion of I-16's on maps causes an inbalance, well the numbers seem to indicate Byekorussia is balanced (similar kill/death ratios for both sides).

Lookin at the overall stats across UKD2 The I-16 dosnt have an unusually high K/D ratio (in fact the planes that stand out are FW190's).

Do you have any evidence of the inbalance caused by I-16 type 18 or 24 on this map or others, or is it just a gut feeling?

I guess one of the tricky things about your issues is that you are so well known for flying Blue team. I really do think you should make an effort to try some of the red planes on a more regular basis, this will lend strength and experiance to your viewpoints. Please dont take this as a dig at you, just constructive critisism.

Algorex
22-08-2006, 00:21
ShVAKs on polikarpovs in general are bull, very few examples were built (not talking about i-185, the fantasy plane in it's on right).

LeadSucker
23-08-2006, 13:35
Flying I16 is fun and quite difficult due to its fragility, overheating, stalling, and neg-G behaviour.

In my opinion it is very easy to make mistakes in I16's but if you are a truly great pilot they are really difficult to down because they can dodge most Z&B attacks. Turnfighting them is of course difficult.

The I16 add variation and is a different challenge than flying a Bf. I have this love hate relationship to the I16. Some days I have great success in them other days I fall out of the sky all the time. Fighting them can be hard but it doesn't take many hits before they are seriously hampered.

So please keep the I16 in many of the scenarios.

NS-IceFire
23-08-2006, 22:29
Xiola and I gave Zorin some tips on how to deal with the I-16s last night. Hopefully some of those have sunk in.

The I-16 is a fun little plane to fly but I don't consider it a serious threat in anything except maybe the very earliest of Bf109E models. Even then...

What happens is the the I-16 is a very manuverable turn fighter. It rolls quickly, its got very good firepower for a plane of its time period, and it turns on a dime. With pilots with less experience and ability...they go for the six o'clock tail position except that very few planes can ever get on the tail of an I-16 easily as its turn rate is amazingly good. So Bf109 pilots get suckered in...I found Zorin and other 109 pilots on the deck desperately trying to escape a few I-16s because they had let them get in too close.

However, after some serious discussion from Xiola and myself, I hope we've gottne through because I saw Zorin using more energy tactics and saw fewer I-16s having the chance to shoot him. During the entire time that I was flying that map...not a single I-16 ever hit me with a gun. During the whole map. Not once. They never had a chance to...and yet I shot down at least 2 and engaged several more in combat (other Blues scored the kills).

Its just a matter of tactics...blue pilots have to show more skills as energy fighters than red team does in this map. Turn fighting seems to "come naturally" while energy fighting has to be beaten into people.

While the I-16 back in 1.0 and 1.1 days was a bit uber in that its damage model was simple and it was hard to shoot down...I will strongly argue with anyone who calls it uber now. Most fighters (except the LaGG-3) I will take strong exception to being called uber at this stage. Most aircraft have been tweaked considerably and each have their own strengths and weaknesses. While its easy and convienent to blame the plane for a loss...its most often a pilots own mistakes that lead to the situation in the first place - if they recognize it or not. And I'm more than happy to point out their mistakes...hopefully others will point out mine (as Xiola did last night - it was appreciated and helpful!).

Algorex
23-08-2006, 22:39
But you must admit that i-16 is the plane it take ful advantage from f6 and other externals views (which we have on the servers).

Zorin
23-08-2006, 23:28
So true Algorex. When you try to combat it with energy tactics, most of the pilots just check F6 and turn right out of your sight the second you come down on them.

And one real disadvantage of energy tactics is, if you don't get your target on the first pass, the 4 other "teammates" behind you will try to steal your kill while you prepare yourself for the second approach.

NS-IceFire
24-08-2006, 00:31
F6 is only a minor annoyance to me. I use it sometimes too so I guess I'm guilty as charged.

It does let them get away sometimes. But they can never touch you so I don't worry too much. Besides, I much enjoy group BNZ moves. Boehmer and I have scored quite a few kills together where both of us BNZ and he can only evade one of us so one gets him :)

The best tactics are team tactics when it comes to energy fighting...so hopefully the "teammates" you speak of will be awesome enough to put you in the position to score the kill the next time. They got it this time because of circumstance but next time they will be the distraction and you'll get the kill.

LeadSucker
24-08-2006, 10:28
F6 is only a minor annoyance to me. I use it sometimes too so I guess I'm guilty as charged..
I also use it A LOT. It helps but it is not enough to avoid somebody to glue to your six ;).



The best tactics are team tactics when it comes to energy fighting...so hopefully the "teammates" you speak of will be awesome enough to put you in the position to score the kill the next time. They got it this time because of circumstance but next time they will be the distraction and you'll get the kill.I fully agree. The worst scenario to survive for the prey is a few B&Z'ers. Two (or three) B&Z'ers are terrible to handle. So, as always, team tactics is efficient. Of course you might "loose" kills but in the long run you get more kills and you survive more missions.

Variety is the spice of live. Last night I B&Z an LA7 in a 262. (First time I flew the 262.) A terrible turnfighter but what a high speed gunship! Remember Zorin? Big BOOM behind to the right. :D One of my engines was taken out by debris.:eek:

NS-IceFire
24-08-2006, 21:54
I find with team BNZ...particularly on TeamSpeak...I'm concerned less with the individual kills and more with the groups success. When I'm flying with Boehmer for instance (or others) and we're double teaming a Spitfire or a Yak or something as frequently we're doing...I don't care much that he gets it or I get it...just that the bandit is put down as quickly as possible and that neither of us are in any danger.

I guess the other side of the coin is that I know he will not attack unecessarily (i.e. shooting a dead plane) and he's not likely to hit me with his guns on the attack either.

Algorex
25-08-2006, 01:28
You can't beat a TeamSpeaking team.

Firelok
26-12-2006, 19:50
I got complaints about it being overgunned and too fast for a 1941 scenario, I couldnt be bothered endlessly arguing about it so I took it out.

Kat
30-12-2006, 14:49
. Where should I push my nose down into when I'm 200m above the ground? You are missing the point here, you usually don't find I16s up high, they are down low.
Well if the I16's down low.. why don't you enter the combat zone up high.. Dive down on the I16 one pass and zoom up.. i.e. BnZ... Just cos he's down in the dirt doesn't mean you have to enter combat down in the dirt.. enter up high.. get your speed up so you have the speed advantage when you enter his arena and if he spots you and breaks you just zoom. He won't have the energy or speed to follow and you survive.

Zorin
30-12-2006, 15:12
I already adopted that tactic and in theory it works perfect, but F6 is definitely an I16's best friend... ;)

Zorin
30-12-2006, 15:43
Could we have a Me210? The Hs129 is nice, but with its Gnôme und Rhône engines it can't take negative Gs, which is kind of impractical for a ground attack plane, and is generally to slow to even escape an IL2, so of course lost against any red fighter.

NS-IceFire
30-12-2006, 16:56
Well if the I16's down low.. why don't you enter the combat zone up high.. Dive down on the I16 one pass and zoom up.. i.e. BnZ... Just cos he's down in the dirt doesn't mean you have to enter combat down in the dirt.. enter up high.. get your speed up so you have the speed advantage when you enter his arena and if he spots you and breaks you just zoom. He won't have the energy or speed to follow and you survive.
Right on man...I've been trying to tell people that for ages! :)

The I-16 has no capability against a properly executed boom and zoom attack. Even if he manages to evade you just keep bouncing till he runs out of options.