PDA

View Full Version : 1945 USAAF/RAF vs VVs map



Boemher
13-08-2006, 19:37
I want to fly a good hypothetical map not some crappy dogfight Ki84 vs Me 163 vs I16 style map but one which postulates the very real threat of the Allies fighting each other immediately after the collapse of Germany in 1945.

I envisage a map which outlines the northern half of the map (lets say the one we use for Bulge ) would be the RAF's tactical arm of Spitfire IX 25lbs and Tempests attacking advancing soviet Tank and infantry columns supported by La7s, Yak3s and IL2s. While the bottom half of the map sees USAAF bombers and fighters attack targets beyond the immediate fronlines like rail road marshalling yards and other importand logistcal targets. In the South the VVS throws up P63s and Yak9Us along with the La7 to try and bring down the bombers and high fling fighters.

Is this a stretch too far for UKD or just the right side of historical?

NS-IceFire
13-08-2006, 22:12
LOVE it. Lets do it!

EDIT: Infact...I'll do it. Any map suggestions? Preferably not NW Germany...maybe Berlin but thats a bit heavy on the system resources. But I could do it. Berlin might be the place.

stanford
14-08-2006, 00:11
Berlin certainly makes historical sense as that's where the front lines met. You can always set the action a little bit away from the main city to bring down the level of resources needed. Spit IX 25 vs La7.. what a match that'll be! Weird!

NS-IceFire
14-08-2006, 02:27
I was thinking more about the Tempest and P-47 against the Yak-9UT :)

NS-IceFire
14-08-2006, 03:22
Ok...I experimented. Compromises will have to be made here and there. SC I don't think will acknowledge teams other than Red or Blue. Same with the game...some if its designed for only Allies vs Axis. One side is going to have to be blue...AND...their planes will not be able to have national markings on them in terms of the static aircraft (player flyable is fine).

This is one where the players will have to read the briefing. As most are retarded and do not...expect alot of German Tempests :wall:

I'm still going to try it out.

stanford
14-08-2006, 12:51
Perhaps an uber briefing. SIZE 25852 FONT. Thanks Ice, looking forward to this one!

Algorex
14-08-2006, 13:09
It would indeed be a extremely interesting experience, as USAAF planes excel in high alt fighting and VVS is geared for low level tactical operations.

Berlin sounds just the place for this.

And what goes for this historicly is that the "allies" did shoot at each other in the closing days of the war in europe.

Boemher
14-08-2006, 14:44
Thanks for the interest and taking it up Ice,

I think it would be very very tough for VVS fliers in reality in this scenario and even in IL2's version of events the VVS side would have it tough. If the Mustang D, P47 Late and P38 Late are flown to potential by pilots who know what they are doing the La7, Yak3 ect will find it really tough fighting at altitudes above 4000m. Likewise on the Northern Sector fighting against Spitfire IX 25 lbers will see the Russians forced to use different tactics as they no longer out turn and out climb their opponents. Add the Tempest and Mustang 3 in to the mix and the La7 is no longer the fastest low level fighter either.

Luckily for VVS fliers how often do you see planes ever being flown to their strengths ! Expect to see lots of Mustangs getting shot down turnfighting Yak3s and in the end the whole Western Allied side chosing Spitfires :D

I think that the Spitfire IX 25 was genuinely an incredible performer and the VVS La7s will be shocked by its combination of dive speed, amazing climb, exceptional turn and decent firepower. We'll end up seeing La7s flown like Fw 190s LoL

brick
14-08-2006, 14:55
Hi all,

Not too far fetched Mr B ;-)
Mr Kozhedub was bounced by a pair of Mustangs ( apparently mistaken with Fw190 in his La-7). Both of whom were shot down.
You might want to experiment with an early Korean scenario ( piston only stuff with B29's )

Disappearing back into the void

Nightshifter
14-08-2006, 15:25
Sounds great, have always wanted to fly in this sort of scenario - looking forward to it :)

Boemher
14-08-2006, 16:02
Nice to hear from you Mr B :D < I was going to post about Kozhedub but I had no idea how to spell his name .. Kozeldub .. was my closest effort but thats after too many Czech beers :)

Ive got a good DVD on the Fw 190 where some old pilot talks of how he ran away from a bunch of Mustangs, he dragged them over the Russian lines and Russian fighters came in to the fray and the USAAF and VVS pilots ended up fighting each other allowing the Fw 190 pilot to escape! Hectic days

Nightshifter
15-08-2006, 14:41
Really think this map idea could be a winner, especially since these sort of fights did take place as you mention.

System-M-
15-08-2006, 17:09
should be an interesting type of map never see one like it before. should be fun.

NS-IceFire
15-08-2006, 23:00
Ok...well my solutions are to make the Western Allies fighters parked on the ground have Finnish Air Force roundels (closest to the RAF style in the Axis lineup) and the Western Allies are of course blue team. Bailed out pilots will look German by default as well.

That aside...I think this will work fairly well. The action is going to take place to the south and slightly east of Berlin city center. Far enough away that you'd have to go a fair bit out of your way to get into lagfest Berlin. I chose this location as it places hypothetical British/American lines in a somewhat realistic manner...and as well its a place that we aren't currently using on this map (we have two other scenarios that cover other areas). The distribution of airfields to the south of Berlin is fairly dense as well to my benefit!

ForkTailedDevil
18-08-2006, 05:17
So what is the scenario?? Maybe the Russians do a Berlin blockade earlier?? The allies want to break it or maybe the allies want Poland and Czechoslovakia out of the Warsaw Pact?? Also what about throwing in a few German planes to the blue side on the chance that the allies have already had a few losses and have inlisted a few non socialist german pilots??

Werg
07-09-2006, 05:55
this project sounds very promising! i like the idea of a few german planes (bonus me262 :D ). it was afterall every wehrmacht generals (and pattons :p ) wet dream to fight the soviets together with the western allies.

will heavy bombers (b29!) be included? maybe a few p-80s aswell ;)

NS-IceFire
08-09-2006, 00:39
Probably not the B-29s...but the P-80 maybe. In limited numbers.

NS-IceFire
26-10-2006, 03:15
Ok...IronCurtain has been making some progress. As mentioned before, to make the Allies fight each other one side has to be blue. I figured the western allies make more sense to have this colour.

I'm using the Finish roundels to mark the static planes as this is the most similar to any of the Allied symbols. You can choose whatever markings you want (as we painfully know) when you're actually flying around so its not a big problem.

I want to get some opinions on the planeset...I've made some controversial choices so far.

Western Allies
A-20G
B-25J
P-38L Late
P-47D
P-51D-20
Spitfire IX +25
Spitfire IXe (Clipped)
Beaufighter MK21
Tempest Mark V
Mustang Mark III
F4U-1C (France)
Do-335A-0 (West Germany)

Soviets
IL-2 Type 3M
La-7
La-7 (3xB20)
Yak-9M
Yak-9UT
Yak-3P
Pe-2 Series 359
P-39Q-10
P-63C

Depending on when I finish this map...the IL-10 and Yak-3 VK-107 (all metal Yak-3) might be good to add or replace other types. I thought about the YP-80 but I don't think I want to make this a jet map yet. I've also muddied the waters by including the Do-335...mostly because its fun. I could take it out and add a FW190D-9. Heck the D-9 could be on both sides...that really muddies the waters. I love this alternate history thing. The P-63C and P-39Q-10 is there as well. In The Korean War the USAF was concerned that their own American made planes would be used against them...it didn't happen but in this case it can!

Boemher
03-11-2006, 17:54
Do the French Normandien squadron get to keep their Yak 3s and fly for Western ALlies? Lol

ForkTailedDevil
04-11-2006, 03:13
I like that idea Bohemer, add a squad of like 6 Yak's to the allied side.

Firelok
04-11-2006, 03:31
Western Allies
A-20G
B-25J
P-38L Late
P-47D
P-51D-20
Spitfire IX +25
Spitfire IXe (Clipped)
Beaufighter MK21
Tempest Mark V
Mustang Mark III
F4U-1C (France)
Do-335A-0 (West Germany)

Soviets
IL-2 Type 3M
La-7
La-7 (3xB20)
Yak-9M
Yak-9UT
Yak-3P
Pe-2 Series 359
P-39Q-10
P-63C

Asides from fighter qualities (I'm not fit to judge these) this seems
that the Allies/Western(blues) have a considerablr advantage in ground attack/bombing maybe this will be relieved by adding the IL10 but consider the ground attack capabilities of the first list 'without' the A20G, B25. Pretty awesome I'd say you could happily keep this a fighter-bomber map if you felt like that.

Algorex
04-11-2006, 10:11
To help the red side on this you could add some captured luftwaffe stuff, like a FW190F8 to increase the ground attack potential or a FW190D9 to balance the high alt fights (or a russian spitfire LF9).

ForkTailedDevil
04-11-2006, 13:49
Another idea someone needs to do some post war German skins for the German aircraft.

NS-IceFire
05-11-2006, 23:50
Interesting stuff guys! It could go all fighter-bomber I suppose...although I know some folks really love the medium bombers (I do sometimes) so I like to expand the possibilities as much as possible. The Pe-2 is still a heavy hitter and with the IL-10 I think the sides will be pretty even (the IL-10 being a very potent weapon).

I am seriously considering the French Yak-3 squadron and Russian Spitfire options as well!

TigerTalon
06-11-2006, 01:44
I like that idea Bohemer, add a squad of like 6 Yak's to the allied side.

Among other types, didn't russians also receive over 400 thunderbolts in lend-lease program?

:D

(pushing it, I know)

NS-IceFire
06-11-2006, 04:09
Among other types, didn't russians also receive over 400 thunderbolts in lend-lease program?

:D

(pushing it, I know)
...and they hated them. Barely used them. Considered them terrible aircraft. Probably had no idea what to do with a light-bomber sized fighter :)

Algorex
06-11-2006, 08:02
IIRC lend-lease jugs and spit mk9s were used by the PVO as high alt interceptors over major cities.

NS-IceFire
07-11-2006, 23:46
Ok guys...here's a picture of the map. I want an honest opinion. Should I abandon this map and use one of the dogfight maps? Might this be too close to Berlin? I'm very concerned about lag and frame rates.

http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/ironcurtainmap.jpg

Red is Soviet and Blue is Allied BTW....

Happy
08-11-2006, 00:10
where did the P40m go? it's a great plane that holds its own.

Sonko
08-11-2006, 00:14
The setting looks really good dogfights over a city is a bit different to "normal" dogfights but I fear my Pc will make the game behave like a picture show because of the many houses and static trees, even reducing the draw distance won't make my Pc work better...and when then the map is full of extra ground objects and aircrafts it is for me impossible to aim when looking into the direction of the town. Maybe I need a faster CPU... :o

NS-IceFire
08-11-2006, 02:48
where did the P40m go? it's a great plane that holds its own.
Bit of a P-40M fest? :D

Not really suitable for this scenario. Nobody would have the P-40 on the frontline in late 1945.

NS-IceFire
08-11-2006, 02:53
Guys...I'm wondering if the Kurland map might be better suited. I'd pick the winter one to make it different in look than the other Kurland maps. Then setup a Allied seaborne invasion (perhaps lead by the infamous McArthur, who seemed to advocate more than one such type of invasion).

Firelok
01-12-2006, 10:16
By way of encouragement this is the Berlin map we have....
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/berlin.jpg
it's pretty close to the city really, I think if you dont have objectives in the city it might be OK.

Or if you decide on an alternative landscape...
If it's winter you want to go for then Kurland might work but it's still a bit big.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/kuland1.jpg
Or winter Balaton map...
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/bala1.jpg

A lot of this is soo flexible depending on how much Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe help the 'NATO' forces get. Things could have gone much worse for the Soviets east of Berlin and Stalins worst nightmare a separate negotiated peace with the 'Western' Allies (NATO) could have gifted Berlin to the 'Blue'(NATO) forces and all this could be conducted eastwards towards the Oder. Which is conveniently right out of laggy Berlin range ;)

NS-IceFire
07-12-2006, 04:57
Interesting possibilities.

Here's another suggestion based on a line in the alternate history from the 1946 readme:


July 3, 1945
US and British forces invade Kyushu.

August 6, 1945
US drops an atomic bomb on Tokyo

August 9, 1945
US drops an atomic bomb on Kyoto

August 11, 1945
Japan surrenders.
US occupies of all Korea and Manchuria.

Lets take that one step further...put the battle lines in Manchuria and feature YP-80s against Yak-15 jets and then all of the other prop fighters. Another possibility...

Firelok
07-12-2006, 06:34
Lets take that one step further...put the battle lines in Manchuria and feature YP-80s against Yak-15 jets and then all of the other prop fighters. Another possibility...
Is the Manchuria map usable tho? or is it enormous?

NS-IceFire
07-12-2006, 22:09
No idea...won't know till I make arrangements to import '46. I've got it covered and likely on its way but I don't know when I'll get it.

Boemher
14-12-2006, 13:39
Nice work guys, its really exciting what with the IL-10 and possibly the new Yak 3 the Soviets will have excellent aircraft. The Yak 3 in particular has amazing performance figures out doing the Fw 190 D9 44 (with almost exactly the same power curve for speed?) and has a 1000 km/h break up speed. We have a new best Piston engined fighter.