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Boemher
13-10-2006, 11:22
I see people with IDF tags and it made me think of a map where we could have Egyptian airforce (RED) fighting against Israeli airforce (BLUE).

We could use a Desert map, the plane match up would be interesting because Israel woul have Bf 109 G6 with gunpods (closest to Muel) and Spitfire IXs and Egypt would have Spitfire IXs and Tempests.

Just a crazy idea but I think it would make for an interesting map. We could even use Russian tanks for the Egyptians and Panzer IVs and Shermans for the Israelis!

Skinny
13-10-2006, 11:52
interesting idea.. too bad we dont have appropriate markings.
BTW, didnt the isaeli's also have a few B17s ?

Firelok
24-11-2006, 07:17
Mission4Today has an Israeli campaign, Israelis have Bf109-G10's(some Checko version), SpitIXe's, P51D20's and some B17s are around. Not flown it all yet but theres mossies and MC205's too. Egyptian spitiX's.
There you go SpitvsSpit sort of stuff.

Boemher
29-06-2007, 12:15
Bump for this idea,

S199s(read Bf 109s with gunpods), Spitfire IXs, Mosquitos, the odd P51, Tempest, Mc 205 - some very interesting matchups here.

Some more back ground on the idea from a thread Xiola started.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2531001075

FlyingFinn
29-06-2007, 12:19
Sounds very interesting!

What markings would be allowed for each side?

Firelok
29-06-2007, 17:51
S199s(read Bf 109s with gunpods), Spitfire IXs, Mosquitos, the odd P51, Tempest, Mc 205 - some very interesting matchups here.

^^ AHH HA!! ^^

The offline campaign is quite good BTW, a good source for skins if anyone was to do this idea. As for what we could use out of the stock sets, Finnish roundels are at least the same pale blue/white colour as the Israeli star of david markings. Don't remember what Egyptian markings are.

But hey doesn't matter anyways everyone will use Polish and French as usual.:D

Boemher
29-06-2007, 18:14
Egyptian markings look very close to RAF markings infact RN markings would do

Whirlinmerlin
29-06-2007, 18:27
Get hold of 'Spitfire the biography' by Jonathan Glancey, it has some good reference material for this.

MajorDamage
29-06-2007, 19:19
Israeli markings could be Finnish maybe? There are some great skins available for both sides. I think it could make a great map - who's going to do it then?

Boemher
29-06-2007, 19:24
It could be an admin called only map if need be or a server supporter/syndicate member event map if need be.

For me its all about the plane match ups, any deviation from the usual match ups is refreshing and revealing in the whole IL2 plane context thingymajiggy.

PS if you are willing to wait for me to learn how to make maps I can try and tackle it but its squeeky bum time as far as my work is going

Incisor
29-06-2007, 23:16
Some more back ground on the idea from a thread Xiola started.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2531001075

In that thread Mystic mentions the movie "Brothers in Arms". Besides that it is an outstanding movie, it is very interesting in regard to this map idea. It is available through

http://flightsimmacinima2006.blogspot.com/

Very nice map idea.

Nightshifter
18-07-2007, 16:00
I edited (with permission) someones Middle Eastern Spits a while ago and turned them into Griffon's. Could finally have a use if this kind of map gets made :)

Linkage http://z3.invisionfree.com/Nightshifter/index.php?showtopic=52

Firelok
18-07-2007, 16:42
* The Bf-109 was manufactured by Avia in Czechoslovakia during the war. After the war, Avia continued to manufacture the Bf-109G as the "S-99", with some two-seat Gustavs produced as "CS-99s".

Avia had a stock of Daimler-Benz engines for the aircraft stored in a sugar refinery, but the refinery burned to the ground and took all the engines with it. The only alternative was a stock of Junkers Jumo 211 engines that were to have been used for He-111 bombers, and so Avia engineers mated the Jumo 211 to the Bf-109G airframe, resulting in the Avia "S-199".

It wasn't a happy marriage. The Jumo 211 was optimized for low RPM and high torque using a big paddle-bladed propeller, and the S-199 was a nightmare to fly, with performance inferior to a Bf-109E. Czech pilots gave it the contemptuous nickname of "Mezec (Mule)". Nonetheless, Avia built a number of S-199s and a two-seat conversion trainer variant, the "CS-199", and even sold a batch of them to the new state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis found them a threat to their own pilots and ineffective in combat, and quickly phased out the Mezecs in favor of Spitfire Mark IXs and P-51Ds.
About the S-199 from here...
http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf109_3.html
So a pretty appalling A/C. with 'performance inferior to a Bf-109E.'

MajorDamage
13-11-2007, 13:50
Bumpity bump for this one. I just finished the offline campaign of the 1st Arab Israeli war and have done a bit of interweb research into it. If no one else is going to do this then I'll stick my hand up and make the map.

Suggested planeset:

Egypt
Spit 9e
Tempest
Mc205 series V
Mosquito
Li2 (basically a C47 with 4 x FAB 250 and a gun turret)

Israel
Spit 9e
109 G10 (as the S-199)
P51D
Beaufighter
Li2

Firelok
13-11-2007, 13:57
If no one else is going to do this then I'll stick my hand up and make the map.

Go for it mate it's been lurking in the wings for some time now. Good planeset I reckon.

Might have issues with the loadouts available for the Li2 (C47) definately need to lock the cargo drop and paratroops :)

Sonko
13-11-2007, 14:16
Might have issues with the loadouts available for the Li2 (C47) definately need to lock the cargo drop and paratroops :)

I fear it won't be possible to lock loadouts on AI planes....but it'll surely be a funny sight to see hundreds ofparas and boxes hanging in the desert skies... :)

Firelok
13-11-2007, 14:29
I fear it won't be possible to lock loadouts on AI planes....but it'll surely be a funny sight to see hundreds ofparas and boxes hanging in the desert skies... :)

Could a G4M Betty be used instead.?

Sonko
14-11-2007, 19:38
Could a G4M Betty be used instead.?

IMO the Betty looks a bit strange, especially if it stands for a C-47 or Li-2. better keep those AI planes. The Li-2 is quite nice to fly, too. And IMO it's nice to see a transport (transporting bombs :D ) plane being used.

MajorDamage
14-11-2007, 19:50
We can put a note in the brief not to use paratroops or cargo. If it becomes a problem that loads of idiots are deliberately spam bombing with paratroops, and thereby bringing the server to its knees, we can always lose it. Both sides had loads of C47's and they were converted for bombing, so it's nice to have them if possible. Israel had a few Short Stirlings, (converted from civilian airliners) and later on a couple of B17s, but none of them really got up to much from what I can tell.

The serious ground pounding options here are really the Mosquito and Beaufighter, not to mention the Tempest and P-51.

MajorDamage
20-11-2007, 12:07
I edited (with permission) someones Middle Eastern Spits a while ago and turned them into Griffon's. Could finally have a use if this kind of map gets made :)

Linkage http://z3.invisionfree.com/Nightshifter/index.php?showtopic=52

Can't find where to download these - they don't seem to be at M4T or Flying Legends. Any idea where I can get hold of them?

LBR=Barkhorn
20-11-2007, 15:46
I'm finishing an Egyptian Mc.205 skin... Later i'll start some Israeli Mezeks...

Firelok
08-04-2008, 11:14
Egypt
Spit 9e
Tempest
Mc205 series V
Mosquito
Li2 (basically a C47 with 4 x FAB 250 and a gun turret)

Israel
Spit 9e
109 G10 (as the S-199)
P51D
Beaufighter
Li2

This has been sitting on the back burner for ages, it's high time it got sorted out and I'm going to do it. Anyone got a problem or suggestions post here or PM. I think it's a candidate for the new Desert map we are waiting for, however I see no reason not to make a prototype on one of our current Desert maps.

This is one scenario that has some real interesting matches, Belgrade worked very well with both sides having 109E's I see no reason why a Spit IXe main match up shouldn't work too. What the hell we should use for ground targets I don't know but looking at this I think Egypt is Red team with Israel as Blue. RN /RAF markings for Egypt and Finnish? for Israel?

Stand by for further updates later today. ;)

Professor
08-04-2008, 11:24
Is this map going to be for both UKD1 and UKD2?

Firelok
08-04-2008, 11:36
Is this map going to be for both UKD1 and UKD2?

I've got no problem with someone converting it at a later date but my concern is for making a UK2 Server Commander map. I decided to continue the original thread in this General section rather than start a new one, sorry for any confusion.

MajorDamage
08-04-2008, 12:53
I've done quite a bit of preliminary work on this already. The reason I haven't actually gone ahead and done it is because I was waiting for 4.09 to use the new desert map, which I think is probably the best representation of the Israeli/Egyptian border and the Negev desert. But if you want to go ahead that's great, I'll look forward to seeing it and I'm sure you'd do a much better job of it than me anyway. :)

One thing about the planeset - I got it wrong regarding the Mosquito. I don't know where I got the idea the Egyptians had them but they definitely didn't. Israel acquired 1 or 2 right at the end of the conflict IIRC but they were unarmed recce versions so probably best leave them out, especially as the Israelis already have the Beau. A good addition for Egypt might be an SBD5 to represent the Harvard.

I did loads of research into this, which of course I've now totally forgotten. But here are some of the links I bookmarked in case they prove useful to you:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_251.shtml

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/48iaf.html

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ai/1948/chronology.htm

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j3aixXetJWM&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iXIemM1mpgU&feature=related

Weapons of the Arab Israeli Wars (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ai/images/archer02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ai/weapons.htm&h=320&w=550&sz=25&hl=en&start=103&tbnid=VZF2zPGUSCib4M:&tbnh=77&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1948%2BARAB%2BISRAELI%2BAIR%2BWAR%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl% 3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN)

Photo of a typical Tegart police fort (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55073053@N00/274650152/)

http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx?id=203

Firelok
08-04-2008, 13:24
Brilliant stuff, Major. I agree that the upcoming desert map will be excellent for this scenario, maybe you should carry on working away at that, and I'll whip up this stop-gap.

The wikipedia entry in your links only mentions Tempests in connection with British Forces not the R.E.A. so the 'pest might be out as well as the Mossie. SBD5 is interesting replacement tho.

MajorDamage
08-04-2008, 14:28
The Iraqi's had Tempests though I think - can't remember off hand, they might have been Furies. IIRC the Iraqi planes ended up transferring to either the Egyptians or the Jordanians and so would have been involved in the air war over the Negev towards the end of the war. I think also the Egyptians had Furies. Don't quote me on any of this, because my leaky memory is totally unreliable, but there honestly was a very good reason for including them at the time. Besides, it would be nice to see Boehmer again. :D

Nightshifter
08-04-2008, 14:32
Can't find where to download these - they don't seem to be at M4T or Flying Legends. Any idea where I can get hold of them?

Guess I missed this post :(

Can get them Here (http://www.mediafire.com/?0d1dx1ujwzj)

Algorex
08-04-2008, 14:45
The Iraqi's had Tempests though I think - can't remember off hand, they might have been Furies. IIRC the Iraqi planes ended up transferring to either the Egyptians or the Jordanians and so would have been involved in the air war over the Negev towards the end of the war. I think also the Egyptians had Furies. Don't quote me on any of this, because my leaky memory is totally unreliable, but there honestly was a very good reason for including them at the time. Besides, it would be nice to see Boehmer again. :D

Iraq had Fury Mk1s which operated from Transjordan and were eventually handed over to Egypt. SOURCE (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_207.shtml)

MajorDamage
08-04-2008, 15:09
Ah there you go, good old Algore and his amazing Google skillz.

Here's the skin look:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/IraqTempest.jpg

Firelok
09-04-2008, 17:36
Arab League(Egypt)
Spit 9e
Tempest
Mc205 series V
SBD5 (as Harvard)

Israel
Spit 9e
109 G10 (as the S-199)
P51D
Beaufighter
Arab Artillery
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Egyptarty.jpg
Israeli Fort and Patrol
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Israelifort-1.jpg
Arab Artillery
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Egyptarty2.jpg
Egyptian Tank Forces.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Egypttanks.jpg
Defended Kibbutz
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/kibbutz.jpg

Don't quite know how to restrict the 109 G10 correctly, might be worth forgetting the restrictions lots of people getting kicked finding the right one.
but really it needs to be what? MG151 pods only?

MajorDamage
09-04-2008, 18:27
That looks way cool, I love the fort especially.

I wouldn't bother restricting the G10, it's rubbish anyway. Everyone's going to be flying spitfires aren't they? :rolleyes:

Algorex
09-04-2008, 18:44
You can't restrict the bf 109 "correctly" but i'd leave the mk108 wingpods out as that's just a silly load out. Leave in the default load out to keep the bf somewhat competitive.

AFAIK both sides had a mixture of full and clipped wing spits if you want variation to the plane set.

Nightshifter
09-04-2008, 19:06
Nice work!

+ RAF aircraft on both sides, spoilt for choice :)

Firelok
09-04-2008, 20:25
Clipped XI's as well will be added then.

I'm thinking that as a default markings suggestion, bearing in mind there's a lot of skinning action expected here.

RED (Egypt) RNZAF.

BLUE (Israel) Finland.

other candidates are RN for RED and USAAF for BLUE.

MajorDamage
11-04-2008, 16:49
Using Finnish markings for Israel makes sense. Why not RAF for Egypt? There was the famous incident when the Israelis mistook a bunch of RAF spits for Egyptian ones because of the roundels. Other than the colours and the crescent emblem, the EAF's style of roundel and tailflash is very similar to the RAF.

I've gathered together all the skins I've collected for this map:

Arab Israeli 1948 Skins (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsvek90tjw)

All we're missing is a Syrian Harvard SBD hack if there are any gallant skinners out there who might want to have a go at one. Images and description here (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/syaaf_t-6g_206.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_253.shtml&h=230&w=640&sz=56&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=qSvz2wKb0dWIvM:&tbnh=49&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsyrian%2Bt-6%2Bharvard%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN)

Firelok
11-04-2008, 18:38
Arab Israeli 1948 Skins (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsvek90tjw)

All we're missing is a Syrian Harvard SBD hack if there are any gallant skinners out there who might want to have a go at one. Images and description here (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/syaaf_t-6g_206.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_253.shtml&h=230&w=640&sz=56&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=qSvz2wKb0dWIvM:&tbnh=49&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsyrian%2Bt-6%2Bharvard%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN)

I found an unmarked Desert SBD5 that looked OK on mission4today.

We can use RN, methinks this might not be a 'correct markings' advertising map to begin with, lol.

Firelok
13-04-2008, 18:05
To make things clearer now there's a completed map
I've closed this thread.
The Negev map thread is here...
Map Discussion for UK2, Negev map. (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=17592)