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Firelok
19-10-2006, 02:43
The Guadalcanal campaign, also known as the Battle of Guadalcanal, was fought between August 7, 1942 and February 9, 1943 in the Pacific theatre of World War II. This campaign, fought on the ground, at sea, and in the air, pitted Allied forces against Imperial Japanese forces, and was a decisive campaign of World War II. The fighting took place on and around the island of Guadalcanal in the southern Solomon Islands and was the first major offensive launched by Allied forces against the Empire of Japan. from wikipaedia..here..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guadalcanal

One of my favourite bits of PacificFighters was fending off repeated air-attacks over Guadacanal, fighting for height as waves of 'Bettys', 'Zeros' and 'Vals' swarmed in over the coast.
So I thought I'd have a go as we are a bit short on ETO scenarios.
Henderson Field.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/guadacanal1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/guadalcanal3.jpg
Blues attack Henderson Field on Guadalcanal, which is one of Reds airfields. Reds attack an IJN convoy offshore.
Planes.

RED.
P-400
P-39D1=20
P-39D2=15
P-40C
P-40E
P-40M=25
SBD-3
F4F-3
F4F-4=25
BLUE.
A6M2-21
A6M3=35
D3A1
G4M1_11

Bases, Reds have two, Henderson Field and the Fighter 1 Airstrip next to it.
Blues have Three Take-off Carriers and an Airstart for the Betty's and Vals behind them and some emergency landing fields further north on Tulagi Island for the Betty's to land on.

This is more of a general feel of the Guadalcanal campaign rather than a specific incident although the month of December would be where i'd put it.
From what I can gather the Airacobras assigned here didn't do well at all in Air-to-Air Combat but where used mainly for Ground Attack both 'D-types' carry bombs and along with the bomb-carrying P40E/P40M should help-out the SBD3's which are red's main bomber here.As far as I can work out all these A/C types were used on Guadalcanal during this period but I'm most doubtful about the P40M.
My biggest doubt about this scenario is whether Guadalcanal map is at all suitable for online play but this can only be tested there so we'll have to see,I've done all the map/.ini work and will put it on the server in the next few days.

NS-IceFire
19-10-2006, 04:32
Just a thought...limited number of Corsair Mark I's to stand in as the initial F4U-1 deployment? Its so rare to see the plane at all.

Zorin
19-10-2006, 17:49
I like the idea Firelok and it look slike it is well executed :)

BUT A6M3 vs P39D2 and Corsair MK.I? It may be historically correct, but a real fun killer for the blue side. The P39 has a plus of 80km/h and the Corsair a plus of 100km/h. And both can kill a Zero in one pass.

I know that you want them to be used as Jabos, but remember, what we intent as mission designs usually has little in cmmon with what people will do in the end. As sad as it is :(

NS-IceFire
19-10-2006, 22:47
I'll gladly fly the A6M3 in that scenario. Thats a gem of a fighter too...even despite it being slower its acceleration and ability to really whallop the American fighters in close is a great advantage. Just a small number of Corsair Mark I's...maybe 10. Even as fighters that shouldn't disrupt things too much. Infact, I might recommend restricting the loadout so they can't drop bombs (I don't think it has rockets as an option anyways) preventing them from being a fast fighter-bomber that you can't take out.

Just a thought anyways.

Zorin
19-10-2006, 23:36
IF you use the P39 and Corsair as BnZ fighter, you have nothing to fear in that scenario, which is why I don't like this arrangement.

NS-IceFire
20-10-2006, 05:29
IF you use the P39 and Corsair as BnZ fighter, you have nothing to fear in that scenario, which is why I don't like this arrangement.
Unless you BNZ them in the A6M3. No really.

I remember a number of COOPs I played where I flew Zero's (A6M5 is all we had once upon a time) and our opponents were P-38s which are a great deal faster and we murered the P-38s. It was all tactics. I guess I shouldn't expect that from a dogfight server but we had those P-38s all off balance.

Anyways, yeah, leave as is...

Firelok
20-10-2006, 12:45
What we have here the classic divergence between historical requirements and 'server' requirements. It's impossible to include the IJN flight-times from Rabual so they have carriers 'a-historically' offshore. I've have my doubts about D-2's inclusion aswell right from the outset but I realise it's not used much and was present on Guadacanal. I'm not keen on the Corsair being added here, It's not part of my original thoughts about this scenario.However trying this map without either of these planes and finding Reds are really in trouble they could act as a balancer in that direction. When it comes to the two types of Zero's I think we got to accept to make this enjoyable for both sides the A6M3 has got to be included but the nearest Islands that I've added airstrips to may be a little far for some folks taste. As for Henderson field itself the basic facilites the map has built in seem a little advanced already. I wasn't happy adding buildings (to allow the hiding of railway trucks) so trucks/jeeps/buldozers/bunkers and planes is what I've added as targets (although there are five 'Stuart' tanks too.)
I think the Corsair (and indeed the P39-D2) could constitute the nucleus of another scenario but I'm going to run without them for now.Personally I'm more doubtful about the ultimate success of this one that anything else I've tried so far.
*additional*
Flight-times from the A6M3 base to Henderson field is 4mins10secs gaining 2000m height.

Gordano
20-10-2006, 15:09
I think the only real way to find out is to test it!

I personally don't think the early Corsair Mk1 shouldn't cause to much of an inbalance. We have a later version on the Marianas map and that scenario is not overly dominated by any particular side.

I personally like these type of maps where both sides have to think slightly more tactically in order to succeed, but it is not 100% vital, as in newer players can still dive in headfirst and start turning and burning and still achieve some sucesses.

My only concen about the P39 is the cannon. It may be a little to powerful in relation to the Zeros weak build/fuel being kept in a bucket under the pilots seat. The .50 cals on the other US aircraft, whilst admitadly under modelled in game, do work in our favour here as they provide a little bit of a balancer and give the Japanese aircraft a little more chance of surviving a BnZ attack.

Overall I see no issue with having the suggested planeset, as it will force people to think in a more tactical fashion. Simply because one plane can BnZ and another can't isn't a reason for excluding it. In that essence we should exclude the Zeros as they can turn where as the Corsair can't......

We complain about endless Bf109G2 vs LA5F turn and burn scenarios, yet when someone tries to move away from these we still complain :thwak:

Zorin
20-10-2006, 15:18
I think the only real way to find out is to test it!

I personally don't think the early Corsair Mk1 shouldn't cause to much of an inbalance. We have a later version on the Marianas map and that scenario is not overly dominated by any particular side.

I personally like these type of maps where both sides have to think slightly more tactically in order to succeed, but it is not 100% vital, as in newer players can still dive in headfirst and start turning and burning and still achieve some sucesses.

My only concen about the P39 is the cannon. It may be a little to powerful in relation to the Zeros weak build/fuel being kept in a bucket under the pilots seat. The .50 cals on the other US aircraft, whilst admitadly under modelled in game, do work in our favour here as they provide a little bit of a balancer and give the Japanese aircraft a little more chance of surviving a BnZ attack.

Overall I see no issue with having the suggested planeset, as it will force people to think in a more tactical fashion. Simply because one plane can BnZ and another can't isn't a reason for excluding it. In that essence we should exclude the Zeros as they can turn where as the Corsair can't......

We complain about endless Bf109G2 vs LA5F turn and burn scenarios, yet when someone tries to move away from these we still complain :thwak:

Turn and burn is not the problem of the G2 vs La5 maps. It is the fact that you could include any other plane on either side and still all would fly G2 and La5. Nothing to do with turn and burn.

What I meant is, as a Zero pilot, you need to make the P39 or Corsair pilot play your game, which no decent P39/Corsair pilot ever would. The other way around you just need to make friends with your rudder and expect an evasive manouver when you zoom down on your target. Chance you'll get him down are rather high as you can BnZ as long as you have ammo/fuel and are undisturbed.

Gordano
20-10-2006, 16:04
I see the point that you are trying to make and it is a logical one.

However, the chances of everyone on red flying the Corsair as a BnZ fighter are quite slim, look at the way people fly the FW190 - very few fly it as intended.

I go back to my point about Marianas, we have this map in the cycle with a later version of the Corsair - I have not noticed any major inbalances in favour of red on this map. If your points were to be the case, red would be demolishing the blues as a matter of routine.

Just so your aware, on Marianas I fly blue wherever possible and intend to fly blue when I test this map aswell, so if anything I should be arguing for no Corsairs and P39s :)

Algorex
20-10-2006, 16:23
IIRC marianas2, which we have on server doesn't have corsairs on it, just hellcats and SBDs.

I don't see the 37mm cannon on p39 as a problem as it's almost completely useless in angle shots.

Firelok
20-10-2006, 17:03
I think the only real way to find out is to test it!

To begin with I'm going to try a version without the P39D2/CorsairI then as I've said add them later. How things develop on this map may well be linked to the fact that Red's main airfield is under attack and Red's should get that 'under pressure, safer to be in the air feel.' P39 is of biggest threat to Blues bombers of course where the big cannon can cause real havoc.However if blues bombers gain height from the airstart and bomb from alt this might cause red a few problems. Anyway enough talk, I'm putting this on the server for testing, although I might not be around much this weekend. Perhaps someone else can call it up and see how it goes and make some points here.

P.S. The blumming name is a real bugger to spell and I considered changing it to Lunga (from Lunga Point,Henderson fields location) however it remains, Guadacanal at the moment.
:)
*additional* added to server 17.30GMT 20th Oct 2006

NS-IceFire
21-10-2006, 00:28
If I get a chance to see it on the server I'll definately comment.

Sorry to have caused a bit of a stir on the two planes there. Just thought they'd be neat to have and fly against.

Firelok
22-10-2006, 03:28
In all the essential ways this map works in testing this afternoon. I'm going to make a few tweaks here and there, But nothing major.
As I say one test which blues won because Red ran out of planes the team numbers see-sawed hugely during the map (20redvs8blues at one point.) Another test with less 'weekend' players is in order I think.
The P40M seemed the choice of ride whilst it was still available, very few F4F's that I noticed. Out of all the planes I've chose or suggested here the P40M is the one I'm mosy 'iffy' about I have no info about whether this version got to Guadalcanal in time for the struggle for the island itself. Red's may have got hammered by blues here and from this you could infer Reds could do with better fighters. I looked at the relative speeds of the A6M3 and the Corsair mk1 the Corsair is nearly 100kph faster :eek: an enormous advantage in the right hands.

NS-IceFire
22-10-2006, 03:37
RE: the P-40M. Yes it was available for the defense of Guadalcanal. The RNZAF received and flew P-40M's with quite a bit of success. The P-40M can be a very effective weapon against the Japanese fighters as the RNZAF pilots illustrated during WWII. Its not going to hold a candle to a Zero if the Zero appears above the P-40 or the P-40 tries to turn with it as the P-40 can't climb and can't turn as well as the Zero.

The strategy for Zero pilots is to appear above the P-40s and try and force them into a close in battle. Most non BNZ pilots get suckered into doing that and the Zero's eat the P-40s and P-39s for lunch.

Its a tough battle....I haven't played this but if its as fun as Solomons then thats good. I will miss the Ki-61-Ko option if Solomons gets retired.

Firelok
22-10-2006, 12:50
I will miss the Ki-61-Ko option if Solomons gets retired. Not a preference of mine, Guadalcanal is an additional Pacific map in my book. P'raps Solomons could get a Corsair? and remove the numbers restrictions on a few things.

NS-IceFire
23-10-2006, 02:01
Yeah I'll agree with that...both the P-40E and M will do better than the A6M3 (or any Zero really) if they are flown right. It takes a good pilot behind the controls. The average pilot in our server is an easy target for the average A6M3 pilot....the balance shifts with the veteran pilots although I'd like to fight against an expert Zero pilot some day and see what they can really do.

Firelok
17-05-2007, 09:10
*BUMP*
I've made some adjustments, increasing the number of ships reds have to destroy, three or four SBDs have a very easy time of it on this map. So it's a bit harder now.