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Firelok
25-10-2006, 18:21
Just in case folks thought the only current map trend is stuff with Jets and other wacky late war stuff. I thought it might be good to finish off the Desert Campaign scenario I've been working at (it's been around on my disks for a couple of months at least.)
So...Spring '41

Reconnaissance elements of the German 5th Light Division clash with British forces for the first time in Africa, at Nofilia near El Agheila
PLANES
BLUE
Bf-109E-4
Bf-109E-4/B
Bf-109E-7
CR_42
G_50
MC-200series3
MC-202_III
RED
HurricaneMkIIb
TomahawkMkIIa
TomahawkMkIIb
HurricaneMkI
J8A

With the Bf109E7/B limited (it's quite fast.) didn't want to go later with the planes (i.e. 109F2/F4s vs Spits) as I've done far too many scenarios like that.
I thought pure Regia Aeronautica might be hated a lot :rolleyes: and they only have the Fiat Cr42 as a bomber.
Some pics.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/agheila1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/agheila2.jpg
Both sides have targets within a grid of each other either side of an Oasis town (that's currently being fought over.) So a very simple, short flight-time, single focus map.

Yellow 2
25-10-2006, 18:52
I like thethe planeset Firelok I'm looking forward to flying this one, thanks for the all work you do on the maps. :)

Algorex
25-10-2006, 19:01
Desert41 ring any bells? Well this doesn't have stukas and it's probably more thought out layout wise.

Don't get me wrong i liked desert41, quite a lot actually

Firelok
25-10-2006, 20:29
Desert41 ring any bells? Well this doesn't have stukas and it's probably more thought out layout wise.

Don't get me wrong i liked desert41, quite a lot actually
Shorter flying times, less Luft more Regia but in general terms yes.

Zorin
25-10-2006, 22:05
How did you shorten the already short flying time of Desert 41? Did you use the eastern bases with a horizontal front line? Wouldn't that be too short?

NS-IceFire
25-10-2006, 22:25
Nice stuff Firelok. I always liked Desert41...love the Tomahawk II despite it being outclassed by everything. Now maybe it has slightly more of a chance.

Zorin
25-10-2006, 22:27
Well, if you get a 109 in a tight turn fight you have a realistic chance to get him down, IMO.

But I think I'll try to fly the Macchi 202 as a BnZ here, just for the fun of it. ;)

Happy
26-10-2006, 00:26
sure can't wait to fly this one.

sounds great :)

just want to thank you, since it must take a lot of your time to produce all the maps and stuff.

will take flying carpet along just in case I need to bail :D

Firelok
26-10-2006, 00:56
How did you shorten the already short flying time of Desert 41? Did you use the eastern bases with a horizontal front line? Wouldn't that be too short?
Was going to try and explain this but here is map pic, lots easier that way.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/mapaghelia.jpg
So yes bases are quite close and targets as equidistant as possible given that finding a suitable patch of desert terrain for the Oasis and the two target columns. So reds are slightly closer but are a bit slower (in terms of effective bombers that is.) so they have slightly more targets and slightly heavier AFV's to kill too, hope this should even things out. but think Spain map with better planes(slightly:p) rather than Desert41 (which is coastal plains sort of stuff.)
P.S. a fair amount of low cloud and a time of day approaching sunset should make this look good too.

MrAsh
26-10-2006, 09:03
looks good firelock, i love early planesets! cant wait to play this one.

Scrappy_D
26-10-2006, 10:03
Should be a challenge for red ... cannons v light mg's ;) .... buffalo anyone?

Algorex
26-10-2006, 10:28
Scrappy, as I keep telling girls. It's not the size it's how you use it ;)

Two cowling .50cals on tomahawk are notoriously accurate. Pilot, control and engine kills are regular.

Firelok
26-10-2006, 10:32
Should be a challenge for red ... cannons v light mg's ;) .... buffalo anyone?
HurricaneIIb, 12 x 7.7 mm Browning Machine Guns. make quite a mess of an Emil.
However the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, I've uploaded this this morning.name:-Agheila

MrAsh
26-10-2006, 11:15
any chance of the 4x20mm cannon hurri? shame we dont have any of those hurri bombers with 40mm cannons that they used in the desert, that would be cool.

Algorex
26-10-2006, 11:19
Or hurribombers with 2x250lb or 2x500lb, The fighter-bomber of pre-typhoon time (and after that in CBI theater, until lend-lease jugs came in '44)

Happy
26-10-2006, 13:50
Should be a challenge for red ... cannons v light mg's ;) .... buffalo anyone?


Me, me, pick me :D

109E :mp5: in my buffalo :p

Sonko
26-10-2006, 14:05
This map looks veeery interesting, I'm really looking foward to play on it! :)

Happy
28-10-2006, 13:37
first of all I would like to firelok for the great map he's put together.

We flew last nite and firelok showed us all that flying and drinking isn't as dangerous as drivin' and drinkin'. Thx for the great laughs. pity we couldn't record TS.

Anyway I have found the planeset to be very nice and good fun.

There is however something that was a tad dissapointing which has nothing to do with the great map nor the setup. The fact that the tomahawks seem so badly designed with a damage model is just a pity.

Now I'm not griping for getting shot down :D it's just my observation that most of the tomahawks where out of the fight with one hit. that hit would entail the loss of: Aileron, Rudder, Engine all at the same time.

(do the designers who made this plane know this?)

I would almost say can we have P40E which seem to be better modelled compared to the tomahawks. Yet I won't since it will affect the balance and realism for that era. (and I think that will upset some predominatly german fly boys for not having the best punch or power)

so can't really see a sollution to the tomahawk damage model and it was a good thing that teamwork seemed to have turned the tide. Jerry had us playing home defence most of the time.

Firelok, I've came across a map where they had the landingstrip lined with just what appears to be white lines. not overly crotesque yet like someone has been busy with white paint. Would this be something interesting since it will help takin'off and landin' by defining the runway a bit better especially in the darker conditions we flew in?

and although it's the desert yet we are on the coast what would you think about a thunderstorm and low clouds.

anyway just wanted to thank you all for the great flight and fight yesterday nite.

H :D ppy

ps. a buffalo would fit in nicely, don't you think?

NS-IceFire
28-10-2006, 15:36
Sadly no Buffalos in the desert theater. Not that I know of. But it might fit nicely anyways....depends on what you want to do with the planeset.

Tomahawk is a bit light on the DM...should be the same as the P-40B. Maybe Japanese weapons are just a little less lethal. I'll keep flying it...don't take it away! :)

I'm wondering if an extra 30 minutes tacked on at the front for some extra daylight might help. It was a bit hard to find the runway at the end. Other than that...fantastic map. Hope to see it in rotation.

Zorin
28-10-2006, 15:49
Campfires, like on Malta, should do the trick. Three at every end of the runway and problem is solved.

If reds should be struggling to much, maybe add 10 Vcs, the two cannon version.

Firelok
28-10-2006, 18:25
Campfires, like on Malta, should do the trick. Three at every end of the runway and problem is solved.

If reds should be struggling to much, maybe add 10 Vcs, the two cannon version.
There are indeed already campfires on the approach end of both runways,
Really can't bring myself to put Spit's here 'cause then the Freidrichs get added and it ends up so similar to lots of other maps.
The first time we tested this with a full server the furballs were in the middle of the map over the targets, and quite low down. On the test last night with less people the Emil's stayed high and fast until over reds airfield and then BnZ'd exactly the sort of approach that should cause Reds trouble. Coupled with the fact (as Happy's pointed out.) certain Reds were drunk at the controls, however it was fun. I'm going to try this with only the 109E-4/B on blue side and see how that goes, would really like to see more Regia Aeronautica planes flown.

Zorin
28-10-2006, 18:33
There are indeed already campfires on the approach end of both runways,
Really can't bring myself to put Spit's here 'cause then the Freidrichs get added and it ends up so similar to lots of other maps.
The first time we tested this with a full server the furballs were in the middle of the map over the targets, and quite low down. On the test last night with less people the Emil's stayed high and fast until over reds airfield and then BnZ'd exactly the sort of approach that should cause Reds trouble. Coupled with the fact (as Happy's pointed out.) certain Reds were drunk at the controls, however it was fun. I'm going to try this with only the 109E-4/B on blue side and see how that goes, would really like to see more Regia Aeronautica planes flown.

If you can give us real MGs for the Italian planes, I'd be all in for it ;)

But why would 10 Spitfires unbalance the map?

Happy
28-10-2006, 19:44
spitfire Vc, won't do the map any good in my opinion.
it's early in the desert war, besides who needs cannons anyway.
with mg's it's more exciting and dogfights last longer unless you are a good shot.

but hey that's just my thought on it.

I am happy to fly an italian plane, even with the two caliber mg's :D

a tad of more daylight like ice said would be welcome. not much though.

Algorex
28-10-2006, 20:20
Taking the E-7/b out is enough balancing for me. The targets on the other hand could use a more aggressive make over, the 250lb on tomahawk really doesn't do much against tanks and at least last time there wasn't much time for strafing with the .50cals. I haven't tried this on blue team so can't comment on that.

Let's not go down the noobfire road.

Firelok
28-10-2006, 21:56
Taking the E-7/b out is enough balancing for me. The targets on the other hand could use a more aggressive make over, the 250lb on tomahawk really doesn't do much against tanks and at least last time there wasn't much time for strafing with the .50cals. I haven't tried this on blue team so can't comment on that.

Let's not go down the noobfire road.
In the midst of altering the planeset I failed to mention the target tweaks, more half-tracks and lighter tanks are already in here.

Zorin
28-10-2006, 23:35
I just thought of the Vc cause blues already have a cannon plane, well, two to be correct. E4 and E4/B.

But I'd be the last to allow to many noob planes into a set, if not absolutely necessary.

Zorin
01-11-2006, 13:28
From the sounds of it yesterday evening, there seems to be no need for a Spit Vc. ;)

Boemher
01-11-2006, 13:30
Any Bf 109 pre F4 gets owned by Spitfire Vc.

Firelok
01-11-2006, 13:58
Yeah E4/B and Macchis make a good match for Hurri's and Tomahawks on both side folks have to think about their attacks or be in trouble. Downside is I still haven't got the targets right here and the mission is a little long.

Algorex
01-11-2006, 14:09
Fighter wise this one is a winner,

One of the problems with the ground targets is the terrain on the desert map, the simulated sand dunes make placement and locating quite hard.

MrAsh
01-11-2006, 15:22
not the most useful post but after last night this is possibly my favourite map, challenging but enjoyable in a tomahawk. Ill try blue next time, "special" people like me need cannons to make kills!

Happy
01-11-2006, 16:16
Fighter wise this one is a winner,

One of the problems with the ground targets is the terrain on the desert map, the simulated sand dunes make placement and locating quite hard.

this map is a winner, yet to come back on the ground targets.
they are very very difficult to spot due to the time of day. I have great difficulty picking up fighters on the dark sand let alone a tank.

thx's very much firelok for such a great map, it's highly enjoyable

can we have more of this kind of stuff :D

Firelok
01-11-2006, 18:00
Ok updated version, some of the ground target are softened and have been moved from the slopes of the dunes which were bloody hard to hit frankly.
Time of Day is 15mins earlier that's all I'm prepared to do, nearly every Desert map i've ever seen is always in very good light conditions. I wanted to let the time move through a sunset sequence during the progress of the map.

Happy
01-11-2006, 20:26
fair enough. didn't realise sun was moving on the map while we flew.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 00:33
I have flown this a few times now with the heavily restricted plane set and while you can easily enjoy yourself on the red side, flying blue is a unpleasant experience.

The E4/B is the most lousy Bf109 we have and doesn't stand a chance against a Tomahawk or Hurricane, which literally fly circles around them while at the same time take out all your controls along with your engine in one MG shower.

So PLEASE add the E7/B back in. Its not much, but an improvement nonetheless.

MajorDamage
23-08-2007, 01:47
Zorin I disagree with this. Both sides have very restricted planesets, but I think they're nicely balanced on this map. I have absolutely no bias - I changed sides3 or 4 times on this map to keep teams even and was quite happy flying either side. The E4 is blues' bomber on this map, but it's still an excellent fighter if you keep your height. If you want a pure fighter and you insist on flying blue try the G50 next time.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 01:53
Zorin I disagree with this. Both sides have very restricted planesets, but I think they're nicely balanced on this map. I have absolutely no bias - I changed sides3 or 4 times on this map to keep teams even and was quite happy flying either side. The E4 is blues' bomber on this map, but it's still an excellent fighter if you keep your height. If you want a pure fighter and you insist on flying blue try the G50 next time.

Like all italian planes the G.50 is a joy to fly but you can't honestly expect anyone to spent ages and all their ammo on downing a single bandit.

Firelok
23-08-2007, 02:12
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/agheila.jpg
Presumably from the actual mission you are complaining about.
I looked on every page to see if there were an excessive amount of crashes on red side that could have induced a 16 to 10 win for blues, there isn't.


I have flown this a few times now with the heavily restricted plane set



[PlanesArmy1]
HurricaneMkIIb
TomahawkMkIIa
TomahawkMkIIb
HurricaneMkI
J8A
[PlanesArmy2]
Bf-109E-4/B
CR_42
G_50
MC-200series3
MC-202_III

Unchanged since January. No restrictions at all.
Emil is faster than all of the allied planes and has double the bombload and has 2 20mm Cannon. True it's in trouble in a slow turning dogfight but I don't think this is any reason to alter things.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 02:30
Restricted in terms of a lack of decent blue planes, we started with the E7, which did not unbalance the set at all. It simply wasn't as pants as the downrated E4/B.

Besides, the Hurricane carries ~250kg of explosives, just like the E4/B.

And the 20mm cannon, well, it lost its bite. 8 hits straight into a Hurri cockpit or 4 straight into a Tomahawk engine had little to no effect, just to recall two of the many incidents of tonight.

And just to get that hideous claim of me being blue biased out of the way, I love flying a Hurricane on this map cause it simply owns all opposition.

Should give a good idea what was operated by the Luftwaffe during May/June 1941:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/Lf2.html

Zorin
23-08-2007, 03:00
Just spent some time checking the stats. Out of 16 red planes lost, 9 were shot down and 7 crashed because of pilot failure or ground fire. On blue side 9 were shot down and one lost to ground fire.

MajorDamage
23-08-2007, 11:09
Like all italian planes the G.50 is a joy to fly but you can't honestly expect anyone to spent ages and all their ammo on downing a single bandit.

Umm why not? If I shoot down 1 plane and get home alive that counts as a successful sortie in my book. Are you saying we need to add a better 109 so that you can shoot down lots more planes????

Zorin, at one point last night the blues last night outnumbered reds 2:1 and you were still complaining who unfair it all was. You could have changed sides if you'd wanted. Is it not possible that you were just having a bad night?

Zorin
23-08-2007, 13:53
Umm why not? If I shoot down 1 plane and get home alive that counts as a successful sortie in my book. Are you saying we need to add a better 109 so that you can shoot down lots more planes????

Polemic doesn't suit everyone. So don't try to inflict a fight just for the sake of it. You don't need that.



Zorin, at one point last night the blues last night outnumbered reds 2:1 and you were still complaining who unfair it all was. You could have changed sides if you'd wanted. Is it not possible that you were just having a bad night?

Exactly, that bought you the time to spent ~7 minutes putting all your ammo into that plane while at the same time being covered by me.

If the server had been full there would have been loads of bandits all over you while you may only have started to scratch off some paint from your bandit.

MajorDamage
23-08-2007, 16:41
Polemic doesn't suit everyone. So don't try to inflict a fight just for the sake of it. You don't need that.

I'm not trying to pick a fight and I hope that wasn't meant to be a threat. :confused: I don't think the map is unbalanced in it's current state, which is why I'm disagreeing with you. I have played a number of times on both sides and enjoyed it either way. You seem to feel the map is unbalanced because it takes too long to shoot down an enemy or something - I don't get it.


Exactly, that bought you the time to spent ~7 minutes putting all your ammo into that plane while at the same time being covered by me.

If the server had been full there would have been loads of bandits all over you while you may only have started to scratch off some paint from your bandit.

Thank you very much for covering me Zorin. Clearly I couldn't have done it without your superior skills. :p

I don't know if it was as long as 7 minutes but even if it was I don't see why it's a problem. I don't think it's a particularly long time to be engaged, in fact it's more fun to have a bit of a protracted fight. It always takes me ages to shoot anything anyway cos I'm a cr@p shot so it doesn't bother me :D . A combination of G50 doing the low level turning and E4 BnZ'ing is a good match for Hurri's and Tomahawks IMO. I don't think the E7 is needed and in fact I think it would unbalance it in favour of blues. Anyway the fact that the E4/B isn't uber helps encourage people to try out the Italian planes, which are great fun and perfectly capable of causing some serious mischief.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 16:53
Thank you very much for covering me Zorin. Clearly I couldn't have done it without your superior skills. :p

Sure, not picking a fight here...

Anyway, if you'd care to drag up Il2Compare you'd see that the E7 isn't a major upgrade of the E4, it just happens to have that little bit extra.

Algorex
23-08-2007, 19:01
Sure, not picking a fight here...

Anyway, if you'd care to drag up Il2Compare you'd see that the E7 isn't a major upgrade of the E4, it just happens to have that little bit extra.

Well that argument works both ways, if you can't survive in a E-4, the extra 5% won't do you any good. ;)

Personally i'm more than happy to fly this map on either side and i actually prefer the G50 on it.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 19:11
Well that argument works both ways, if you can't survive in a E-4, the extra 5% won't do you any good. ;)

Personally i'm more than happy to fly this map on either side and i actually prefer the G50 on it.

I only died twice during the map, both times ram/collision. So survival isn't that much of an issue. Its the lack of enjoyment I'm complaining about.

Flying the G.50 is fun, yes, but noone really wants to state it's an efficient plane, right?

bokatar
23-08-2007, 21:50
IMO E4/B vs Tomahawk is the best match available on our servers. I've had some intense dogfights with both against the other and never once thought that Tomahawk owns E4/B on equal terms..

Hurricane simply owns all the opposition??!?! Give me a break...

Zorin
23-08-2007, 22:23
IMO E4/B vs Tomahawk is the best match available on our servers. I've had some intense dogfights with both against the other and never once thought that Tomahawk owns E4/B on equal terms..

Hurricane simply owns all the opposition??!?! Give me a break...

You can easily outturn the E4 in a Tomahawk or Hurricane and the new and improved 50cals (2x50cal + 4x303cal) respectively the shear amount of 7.7mm from the Hurricane kill your controls or pilot, especially in open pit italian planes, in such a frustrating way that it is, for me, no fun to fly blue on this map.

stanford
23-08-2007, 23:23
E4 owns the Hurri. In fact, you should be able to out run everything, and you have by far the most firepower. I don't see the issue. I'd happily take the E4.

bokatar
23-08-2007, 23:34
You can easily outturn the E4 in a Tomahawk or Hurricane and the new and improved 50cals (2x50cal + 4x303cal) respectively the shear amount of 7.7mm from the Hurricane kill your controls or pilot, especially in open pit italian planes, in such a frustrating way that it is, for me, no fun to fly blue on this map.

Well, to be honest I find Tomahawk a bit dodgy in a turnfight ( especially in stall speeds ) so I would put my money on E4/B there.

Even if it does outturn E4/B, it suffers from worse climb rate. And this is what a close match is all about. You outperform in one way, and suffer from another. In the end the skillful pilot wins..

MajorDamage
23-08-2007, 23:44
Flying the G.50 is fun, yes, but noone really wants to state it's an efficient plane, right?

When playing a game do you want to:

A. Have fun?

B. Be efficient?

Zorin
23-08-2007, 23:48
When playing a game do you want to:

A. Have fun?

B. Be efficient?

Both, I'd say. It's always fun to be efficient. And it is a combat simulator, not a flying circus, right? :o

stanford
24-08-2007, 09:47
It's the same as every other map. Each plane has it's own stengths and weaknesses. The E4 is not outclassed here. You just can't turn and burn with the reds. If you want to turn and burn, you're going to get shot down - and it wouldn't be efficient. If you want to be efficient and have fun, use it as an energy fighter and be untouchable.

Gordano
24-08-2007, 10:59
Each plane has it's own stengths and weaknesses.

Exactly, that is where I get most of my fun from in this game.

Finding my planes strengths, realising those of the enemy and then trying to exploit them.

For me turn fighting is only one portion of the aerial battle ground.

Algorex
06-10-2008, 22:32
Sonko added the FB version of the Macchi 200 and upped the base protection.