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Boemher
31-10-2006, 12:23
Id like to see more P47/38 maps against Japanese A6Ms Ki 43s and Ki 61s. There must be lots of scenarios and theatres we could play out which feature these aircraft.

Its a good match up and we only have the 1945 map which has very late war P38s/47s. How about P38 J and P47 D22 nice mid war stylee?

Algorex
31-10-2006, 16:45
How about a CBI scenario with RAF p-47s and USAAF p-38js against IJA.

Boemher
31-10-2006, 17:00
is CBI Burma?

I like pacific maps, id like to see more mid war USAAF as late war is represented a couple of times as is early war.

P38 J and P47 D22 would be nice to fly around, their margin of superiority is purely down to level and dive speed. It would take discipline to avoid low level furballs against Zeros.

Algorex
31-10-2006, 17:19
CBI = China Burma India theater.

CBI has atleast one advantage over new guinea/philippines, lack of marines and navy, so no grumman fighters or corsairs. And it's a less known and featured theater all together, which in my book is always a bonus.

Boemher
31-10-2006, 17:37
Hurricane IIC could make appearence as could Beaufighter. IIRC the P47 was used by the British because of delays with the Tempest II.

Crazyclaws
31-10-2006, 19:02
CBI = China Burma India theater.

CBI has atleast one advantage over new guinea/philippines, lack of marines and navy, so no grumman fighters or corsairs. And it's a less known and featured theater all together, which in my book is always a bonus.

I love to see map based on New Guinea, the old Netherland Indies ( my spelling in English isn't very good ) I've read a book about a pilot in the 18th squadron flying B-25 of Australia. Before that I read a book about the 320 squadron flying of England. Both are Dutch sqaudrons and yep, I'm Dutch. They had some trouble with the Japanese and the zero's. In the early days, I think the Australian flew the Beafighter. I don't excatly know wich planes alse flew there, but I love to see a map based on that. I'm not a map maker, don't have the patience and the skill, so it may never come to that.

oh well, just dreaming away

Zorin
31-10-2006, 21:50
The P47 and P38 will BnZ the Zeros big time, that will be absolutely no fun for blues.

Only way I see here would be red targets close to blue base and only red Jabos, to drag them low and give blues a chance.

And a B25 vs Zero is a really bad idea. They'll be down in flames after one gunner's burst.

NS-IceFire
01-11-2006, 00:30
CBI is more Army territory isn't it? They operated allot of Ki-43, Ki-44, and some Ki-61s? The Ki-61 I feel is a decent match for a P-40 and a great BNZ machine against any American fighter. The P-38 and P-47 can still outrun but the Ki-61 is fast to accelerate.

I can see a possible planeset being:

Allies
P-40M
P-38J
P-47D-10
Beaufighter
Hurricane IIc

Axis
Ki-43-II
Ki-61 Otsu
G4M (in place of Army bombers)
A6M3 if we wanted it

That'd be a pretty fair matchup. I know what I'm doing in the Ki-61 and I'd feel confident in it. Any P-47 or P-38 I got behind would not be able to easily escape. With the Ki-43-II you add insane agility and a somewhat decent top speed to the mix. Actually the Beaufighter might be the hardest to deal with in this scenario...its incredibly tough and fast at low altitude (it'd be nice if we had the earlier models) and you'd be hard pressed to shoot one down with anything except the Zero and allot of cannon rounds.

Zorin
01-11-2006, 01:08
CBI is more Army territory isn't it? They operated allot of Ki-43, Ki-44, and some Ki-61s? The Ki-61 I feel is a decent match for a P-40 and a great BNZ machine against any American fighter. The P-38 and P-47 can still outrun but the Ki-61 is fast to accelerate.

I can see a possible planeset being:

Allies
P-40M
P-38J
P-47D-10
Beaufighter
Hurricane IIc

Axis
Ki-43-II
Ki-61 Otsu
G4M (in place of Army bombers)
A6M3 if we wanted it

That'd be a pretty fair matchup. I know what I'm doing in the Ki-61 and I'd feel confident in it. Any P-47 or P-38 I got behind would not be able to easily escape. With the Ki-43-II you add insane agility and a somewhat decent top speed to the mix. Actually the Beaufighter might be the hardest to deal with in this scenario...its incredibly tough and fast at low altitude (it'd be nice if we had the earlier models) and you'd be hard pressed to shoot one down with anything except the Zero and allot of cannon rounds.

Same goes for the P47. Especially from dead six. Spent all ammo of a G2 on it and it still made it home, only leaking fuel... Don't want to think of the amount of lousy japanese MG rounds I'd need to down one of them. But he would outrun me anyway, so why bother in the first place ;)

Btw, the Ki61, out of a simple comparison with Hardball, has no real advantage over the E7, except it turns better, but has no cannons. So why should that make me feel confident when faced with a P-47 or P-38? Or am I just a bad pilot, being unable to think of a positive out come for me in such a dogfight?

Boemher
01-11-2006, 01:11
If you really want you could fly the P47 or P38 J ;)

If you look at paper statistics P51 and P47 should never get shot down. But how often do pilots fly their planes to their advantages?

Zorin
01-11-2006, 01:18
Problem is, when I'm on the server all regulars, who seem to know how to fly their planes to their advantages ;) , are around and so I can't rely on them making noob mistakes.

So on the other hand, me flying a P47 or P38 would be fun for blues... or not, cause I tend to smash the P38 into the ground cause of its poor elevator and simply drop out of the sky in the P47 which flies like a bus, so they would get the chance to shoot me down ;) :D

Firelok
01-11-2006, 01:42
I tend to smash the P38 into the ground cause of its poor elevator and simply drop out of the sky in the P47 which flies like a bus, so they would get the chance to shoot me down ;) :D
So flying an agile slow plane with no cannon or machineguns to speak of against an uncontrollable dive machine and a plane that flies like a bus and you can't actually see out of the front cockpit because of the big bar in the way.
H'mm sounding like a match up to me. Anyway only one way to find out make the map and see ;)

NS-IceFire
01-11-2006, 04:03
Same goes for the P47. Especially from dead six. Spent all ammo of a G2 on it and it still made it home, only leaking fuel... Don't want to think of the amount of lousy japanese MG rounds I'd need to down one of them. But he would outrun me anyway, so why bother in the first place ;)

Btw, the Ki61, out of a simple comparison with Hardball, has no real advantage over the E7, except it turns better, but has no cannons. So why should that make me feel confident when faced with a P-47 or P-38? Or am I just a bad pilot, being unable to think of a positive out come for me in such a dogfight?
Thing with the P-47 is...you only need to cripple it. You'd be hard pressed to destroy it like a smaller fighter. Its more like a bomber that way.

The last two P-47s I shot down were from Japanese planes. Mind you the plane I was flying was a Ki-100 and I had two 12.7mm machine guns and two 20mm cannons so I was better armed but I fired no more than a 1 second burst to disable the P-47 which crashed moments later. The other one I put a 3 second burst into his wing root at close range with MG's only and the guy bailed so I must have hit something important. Not that this happens all the time...one time I put half an ammo load into the back. But there was certainly no more fight from him...his P-47 was toast.

But I will make a prediction...we put together a map like that and everyone will flock to Blue. Better turn fighters...

The thing is...if you concentrate your fire up close on one of these guys you can bring it down. But not if you're spraying it with shots all over which I find is far less effective. 10 machine gun rounds in the same spot is better than 10 20mm cannon rounds into all areas of the plane...particularly with the P-47.

Zorin
01-11-2006, 14:20
I want a Zero with a BMW 801 D-2. That would have solved quite some problems for the Japanese.

Paulie
11-11-2006, 00:21
I would dearly love to run Tiffys of Squadron 193 out of RAF Harrowbeer (my local disused WWII airbase) taking out 109s, 190s, 110s eboats etc attacking costal defences and shipping in Devon....but I think I may be in a minority of one. ;)

Firelok
11-11-2006, 00:27
Tiffys Is this some secret Devonian code I'm unaware of ?
Ahh, after a bit of t'internet y'mean Typhoons ;) No can do unless we think on Tempest lines.
Oh, and BTW Welcome to the forums Paulie :)

Paulie
11-11-2006, 00:35
Is this some secret Devonian code I'm unaware of ?
Ahh, after a bit of t'internet y'mean Typhoons ;) No can do unless we think on Tempest lines.
Oh, and BTW Welcome to the forums Paulie :)

Alas, it's true. It is more of a pipe dream than a serious wish. But hey, when BoB comes out, maybe it will be possible. Provided of course that they cover the later years of channel air warfare rather than just the few weeks that actually constituted the Battle of Britain proper.....you know what I mean.

Oh and thanks for the welcome and the great intro to the guys on TS. A true revelation. Still finding my feet in IL2 having left CFS in disgust some yearsd ago with the advent of 3 and the demise of the zone. Can't believe what I have been missing.

NS-IceFire
11-11-2006, 00:47
Alex Voicu, the guy who did the Tempest for this game, is investigating the Tiffy as well. He even has a thread on the Ubi forums with a late war Tiffy (Typhoon Mark IB Late with 4 blade propeller and Sabre IIA refinements). I guess the real trouble is finding accurate cockpit information on the early Typhoon cockpit (car door style).

Here's my proposal to the map idea. We use the new Burma map (probably good for a couple of scenarios) to do a mid-war scenario with P-38J, P-40E, and P-47D-10 (probably the Hurricane IIc as well). I'll probably be in favour of somewhat limiting the P-38 and P-47 (maybe 20 or 25 each) and they will be up against Ki-43-Ic and Ki-43-II plus the Ki-61 and A6M3. This isn't 100% accurate but we have no Ki-44 or some of the other types that saw service in this theater.

The Ki-43-II I'm expecting to actually be a serious threat as its nearly as fast as the P-40 and it can still turn on a dime.

Algorex
11-11-2006, 01:07
CBI (Burma) missions that could be done:
Early war (41) with hurri IIB, buffalo and p-40(c?) vs ki-43 and zero

Mid war (43) with hurribombers, spitVc, p-40 and maybe a p-38 vs ki-43, zero and ki-61

Late war (45) with RAF cab rank p-47, spitVIII, p-38 and USAAF p-47 vs ki-43, zero, ki-61 and ki-84

Add bomber accordingly (betty, beau, b-25 and heavies)

Sadly we don't get to have tojo, that would've spiced things up on a few far east missions.

Algorex
16-11-2006, 22:25
Found a nice article about CBI: Mustang combat over China : Yellow scorpions (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200301/ai_n9190674/)

System-M-
16-11-2006, 23:32
is Wake Island up for consideratio I would like to see this as a map.

Algorex
17-11-2006, 00:36
Invasion of Wake Island wasn't really a air battle, the few marine planes on the island were wiped out when the two japanese carriers arrived for the second invasion attempt including the 20 some F2As send from saratoga. Only a few of the earlier air raids by long ranged japanese bombers operating from Roi were intecepted by the few fighters present.

Even a what-if with the american carriers (that turned back before making contact) had made contact with the japanese we'd have a f4f, f2a, sbd and TBD vs a6m2, d3a and b5n fight, which sounds like midway just 6 months in advance.

NS-IceFire
17-11-2006, 04:20
is Wake Island up for consideratio I would like to see this as a map.
The problem is that the detail of the map actually consumes a lot of graphical power...particularly when running perfect mode.

Firelok
24-11-2006, 07:35
Weel the whole China/Japan conflict puts some interesting match-ups to say the least. Chinese forces where supplied by the US and USSR, plus of course the AVG presence.
We may well get some more planes whenever IL2Complete comes out but the basics are there and may provide a lot of early war enjoyment.
For example.
Reds.
i-16 type18
TB3-M17s
AVG Hawk 81s

Blues
Ki-43's
G4M11(Bettys)

this is excluding various AI planes and the content from Manchuria(two new types of Ki and maybe the Ki-21 Sally bomber.
Attacking Betty's in an I-16 is good fun and the Ki-43vsI-16 battles are crazy twisting acrobatic dogfights. Ki-43s attacking TB3's is good as unlike the usual ETO Bf109 attacks the Ki-43 really has to pick a spot and concentrate it's fire to take one down.
Whether the new Manchuria maps are going to be of use is another matter.
I've already started putting some of this stuff onto reliable df maps we have already.

NS-IceFire
25-11-2006, 00:40
Sounds good Firelok. We can actually use the Khalkin Gol map for this scenario...its the ideal dogfight map and its meant for this conflict.

We may have to use the Ki-43-Ib even though it wasn't present. Just because the Ki-27 won't have the firepower to take on the I-16 or I-153. Although maybe the DM's have been tweaked...we'll see how that goes.

I'll need to consult the performance levels to see if anything is seriously out of whack in a situation like that.

But this would be a massively fun dogfight setup where the primary aircraft are nearly pure dog fighters interspersed with some fairly slow bombers.

NS-IceFire
25-11-2006, 05:30
I missed something there :D

Firelok
25-11-2006, 15:44
I have posted some stuff here whilst enormously drunk please ignore it
:wall:
Srry. :o

NS-IceFire
25-11-2006, 21:50
Yeah...I couldn't even figure out that reply either :)

I have a private blog where I go and post when drunk...works wonders :)