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Boemher
15-11-2006, 14:16
WAH ! I want some Fw 190 A4 maps!

I havnt been on any 1942 maps which feature this plane in around a month. Looking on stats it is ranked 74th picked plane.

To put that in to context Spitfire IX 25lb is only 6 places behind at 80th
Ki 84b is coming in this week at no. 40

The Fw 190 A4 represents the first flyable Fw 190 in IL2 (1942), it is moddeled in game as an earlier lower performance variant of the Fw 190 A2/3. This plane was first seen September 41 on ETO and from 42 everywhere.

The Fw 190 A4 was the longest serving variant, it was also the 2nd most produced.

Its most famous opponent was the Spitfire Vb which ranks 9th in the list of most flown with 628 flights the Fw 190 A4 has only 170.

These planes were contemporaries in service, can we have some more historic ass handage please? :)

Firelok
15-11-2006, 14:26
Problems with this are twofold
1. let it play with the SpitVb (like Channel42) -limited appeal really, because the scenario is going to end up very similar to Channel42.
2. Put it in a Dieppe scenario in 1943 maybe against SpitVb and SpitLFVb but shouldn't it be an A5 version by that time.

An FW only map could be great, a lot of blues have no idea what to do in one.
It's most likely to be Ostfront though with the FW190A4 as a dive-bomber.
Or revisit the Hastings 'Baedeker Raids' time period and use FW's attacking
a coastal site in England.

FlyingFinn
15-11-2006, 14:26
Wait till 46 comes out then the USSR side has some firepower to match the A-4, like MiG-9 for example. They're equal performance in my eyes ;)

Boemher
15-11-2006, 14:29
Except Mig9 will actually have a gunsight, and although largely made of moss and wood and sporting a German engine will have a DM the Fw 190 will envy.

Anyway what about the La5FN you having trouble taking Fw 190s in that?

Boemher
15-11-2006, 14:36
Problems with this are twofold
1. let it play with the SpitVb (like Channel42) -limited appeal really, because the scenario is going to end up very similar to Channel42.
2. Put it in a Dieppe scenario in 1943 maybe against SpitVb and SpitLFVb but shouldn't it be an A5 version by that time.

An FW only map could be great, a lot of blues have no idea what to do in one.
It's most likely to be Ostfront though with the FW190A4 as a dive-bomber.
Or revisit the Hastings 'Baedeker Raids' time period and use FW's attacking
a coastal site in England.

The vast majority always will pick the Bf 109F4, it is more user friendly. There are plenty of maps which feature the Vb and the F4 the map balance seems fine there.

The A4 could be used as a tip and run raider along the south of England on some existing maps like you said. The fear that the A4 will kick 7 shades out **** out of the Vb is really a moot point anyway. Why? because A, it did do in real life and it would be appropriate to give this plane is head B and, because there are only ever a handful of pilots on a map who choose to fly it in such a way. The rest will choose and F4 or get powned flying the Fw 190 like a 109.

We probably have the same amount of 262 maps as we do maps where the A4 is allowed to be the fastest plane.

On half the maps it could be added to, or tweaked to feauture I'll be flying a Hurricane anyway.

To look at it another way we have more Mc 202 maps than we do Fw 190 A4s.

Firelok
15-11-2006, 16:51
We have three 1942 'Western' maps BTW; Channel42(which has the A4);Hastings(as I made it I'd argue strongly against the A4 being present, I think the map is finely balanced already,with Vb's,Vc's vs 109F4's/F2's/E7/B's)
Valletta (another map of mine, pretty sure no FW's where used over Valletta. Really wanted to give this a more Italian feel but had to have 109's and Spit's.
Wouldn't neccessarily object to the A4 here but need to know whether the 190 was used here.
Perhaps the Malta map ?

As for Ostfront stuff, you tell me theres a fully up to date map list on the other thread. I must say adding the FW190A4(as an FW190A2 for example.) to some of these maps is going to make some red pilots 'have kittens' as you might say,
Sevastopol with 190A4's :eek:
Designing a new Winter41 Ostfront using the 109A4 might be a real challenge.

Firelok
15-11-2006, 17:27
Western Theatre, Channel Dash Spring 1942 (of course) but this is in trouble for lack of suitable Red planes (no Swordfish) or equivalents.
Eastern Theatre, Winter1941/42 might be much more fruitful, I'll look into it.

Boemher
15-11-2006, 17:33
Well its on Istra and Stalingrad, but it didnt make an appearence in Russia until mid 42 I think so no point in adding to to earlier maps. No Fw 190 over Valleta, we had a nice 42/early43 desert map which featured VbL.Fs and Fw 190 A4s but think that has gone. If Hastings is representative of the kind of tip and run attacks the Luftwaffe did against Britain in 42 then the Fw 190 was definately used for that role.

My point is the Fw 190 series was produced in the same if in not greater numbers than the Spitfire; 21,000 iirc

We have an absolute shedload of maps which feature the Bf 109 F4 and a ton of Spitfire Vb maps yet only a few with the Fw 190A4.

We have so many maps where its IX or VIII against A5 and A6, obviously for map balance but realistically the Spitfire Vb L.F did the lionshare of the work through 43 until sufficient IXs began to appear late 43/start of 44. We have lots of early war stuff then it skips from early to late mid/ full late war planesets.

Zorin
16-11-2006, 00:00
Petsamo, being ETO so, is a perfect 1942 plane set with FW A4. :cool:

Algorex
16-11-2006, 00:05
Norway map, 1944, beaus and mossies anti-shipping ore transports in coastal waters, RAF ponies escorting, fw-190a-3 from JG5 defending.

Boemher
16-11-2006, 01:47
Spit VIII vs Fw 190 A5 not enough ?

Firelok
17-11-2006, 13:43
Whilst the AltMalta project is still being tested etc. I was thinking that the firepower of the SpitVc(4cannon) and the FW190A4 might be good on the same map. Installing the 190's to fly from the bomber base on the 'mainland' in the SE would give them room to get up to height and speed whilst givening the long-range bombers great cover to target and the Beaufighters a few grey hairs.
I'm might add them and see what it's like.

Firelok
17-11-2006, 13:50
Boehmer, as mentioned the mission is based on the southern sector with planes from luftflotte 4.

Luftflotte 6 in the northern sector had fw-190 as it's primary fighter as well as the ju-87G as a tank buster, while luftflotte 4 had bf-109G and Hs-129B

Creating a new mission based on the Orel (northern sector) of the Kursk salient
would make and 'only Fw' map involving A4 and A5's maybe even the extra-boosted A5 in very small numbers. Don't know what VVS ships we could have, lots of Yaks maybe, Lend-lease P39's. This is very tempting idea I will have a tinker I think. :)

Xiola
18-11-2006, 01:37
Spits/Hurri IIc/P40's/Mossies are far more fun than Yak1/I16 and Lagg3/4 in my opinion. I get sick of those early Russian maps, theres so many.

WHat about a map on SOutheren England like Fireloks Hastings with

FW190A4's/109F4's/109E7B Jabos
vs
Some Spitfire V varients such as the Spit V LF1942/Spitfire Vc2/Hurricane IIc + the usual bombers for the period

This way the FW190A4 is still top dog, but the Spits wont get quite so slaughtered with the LF1942 as top dog for the reds.


OR

A desert map with the same planeset representing Africa 1942 El Alamein.

We used to have one very simialar but it was pulled becasue the red targets were too easy to finish in a couple of runs. (Was it Desert '43?)

Personally I dont think another FW190A4 vs SpitVb 1941 map would be too good, as we have one and I already feel guilty flying blue on that that map! Up the Spit Vb to the Spit Vb LF 1942 and I think we ,might have a winner.

Maybe we could think of an interesting bombing scenario to put around this planeset?

Scrappy_D
18-11-2006, 01:38
Balance is the key, not historical accuracy ..... this is a game and therefore by definition (game) is supposed to be fun, it is not supposed to be correct (the current game cannot deliver correctness of much shape or form!) .... If it really was historically correct then I for one would not even attempt to fly red ..... :) ... And my stats would be super duper, but hey wtf are stats anyhow ?

Zorin
18-11-2006, 11:00
I have a map in the making for a winter map, northern France 1941/1942 on the Kurland winter map. The plane set is simular to what Xiola suggested.

EDIT: Did the RAF apply winter camo to any of their planes?

Zorin
18-11-2006, 15:00
Blue:

Bf 109E 7/B
Bf 109 F4
FW 190 A4

Bf 110G2

Ju88
He111

Red:

P40E
P400 (??)
Spitfire Vc (2cannons)
Spitfire LF Mk.Vb

A20C
Mosquito FB.MK.VI

Xiola
20-11-2006, 00:11
Sounds good Zorin, I am not sure about Winter Camo, I have never seen any white British planes?.

Look forward to trying it :)

NS-IceFire
20-11-2006, 03:41
The RAF did not apply winter cammo to their planes. I suspect there was a number of reasons for this ranging from there not being a guarantee of snow on the ground at all times during the winter and the obvious flying over the channel part (a white plane would stand out quite a bit).

Boemher
21-11-2006, 20:51
.... If it really was historically correct then I for one would not even attempt to fly red ..... :) ...

Luckily we have few if any maps which feature uneven balance for eitherside. It is perfectly possible the way it is now to do equally well if not better flying for the Red team.

I get my dogfighting fix flying the Hurricane on numerous maps, I would like to do some proper hit and run fighting in a Fw 190 A4 because as soon as the La5 or Spitfire IX/VIII come in to play it takes the bottom out of the boat as far as thats concerned.

A graph of Fw 190 Energy fighting Red planes successfully in IL2 has 2 peaks, firstly Fw 190 A4 vs 1941 stuff and then Fw 190 D9 vs 44 stuff.

All the bits inbetween are flattened out by planes that are extremely easy to do well in, offer comparable speed to the Fw 190 but own it in climbing, turning and energy retention.

There is a profusion of maps which feature planesets which offer 'too even matchups' ie Sicily where If I were so inclined I could pick a Spitfire VIII and hunt down every Blue fighter on the map covering Blue bombers with impunity. I know this because I have done it in the past and because I have experienced it from the other end of the stick.

Boemher
21-11-2006, 20:56
I too would like to see the A-4 more often.

Maps that feature Spit Vb vs. FW 190 A-4 are far from balanced. Usually you have more blue fighters than red and you have the veterans fly the FW. Teams even concept on these maps doesn't work as easily as "have the same numbers in both teams". Pretty sad to face 8 Fockes with a total fighter force of 2 SpitVb's and a single P-40 or so.

I'd also like to say: Why Spits, who cares? Take Yaks and Laggs and have fun.

And finally wrt historical accuracy: The Spit Vb/Vc models we have in game never existed.

I strongly agree with every thing posted here , except I see nothing wrong with Plane A outperforming Plane B - happens on every map in some way or other.
We used to have an eastern front map which featured Fw 190 A4 alongside Yak 1B and Lagg3s yet I havent come across it for some time - perhaps taken out of cycle.

The Spit Vb we have overperforms in roc, the Vc has incorrect gunsight/cockpit modelling as well as better performance ignoring sand filter - both of these things favour balance.

Zorin
21-11-2006, 21:25
There is a profusion of maps which feature planesets which offer 'too even matchups' ie Sicily where If I were so inclined I could pick a Spitfire VIII and hunt down every Blue fighter on the map covering Blue bombers with impunity. I know this because I have done it in the past and because I have experienced it from the other end of the stick.

Don't blame me. Icefire proofed that the VIII was present and should substitute the Lf MK IXc i proposed:
Icefire's post (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showpost.php?p=112528&postcount=45)

Boemher
22-11-2006, 01:49
Im not blaming you zorin, and performance wise the IX C and VIII are pretty much the same aircraft.

I blame way that aircraft are modelled so that turn fighters keep their energy as well as energy fighters.

It means that 3 hillbillys chewing straw flying Spitfire VIII can be more effective than 3 long in the tooth IL2 players flying Fw 190 A5 - because the game is balanced that way.

Nightshifter
22-11-2006, 02:41
I really don't mind if the match ups aren't balanced - I know I would be in the minority but I think it is more interesting to fly against historically accurate (as much as possible) aircraft.

The only plane I fear when flying the Vb or ANY Spit for that matter is the 109-G2 or then again anything with wings that Boehmer is flying ;)

Boemher
24-11-2006, 01:54
As I said online, Flattery will get you everywhere mate :D

NS-IceFire
24-11-2006, 04:37
Don't blame me. Icefire proofed that the VIII was present and should substitute the Lf MK IXc i proposed:
Icefire's post (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showpost.php?p=112528&postcount=45)
Mark VIII and IXc have identical performance. The Mark VIII is a redesign in terms of structural details but the engine and aerodynamics is the same. In-game the VIII is actually 1-2kph on average slower than the Mark IX. In theory the dive limit in the VIII is higher due to better structure...but I'm not convinced. The VIII also is slightly worse in the turn due to an increase in weight.

There are more and better Italy campaign skins for the VIII which is why I suggested the VIII for that scenario instead of the IX. Plus its the plane that is there. Don't we have the 109G-2 and FW190A-5 high boost on that map as well?

Boemher
26-11-2006, 20:10
The VIII is a lovely fighter, perhaps the best Spitfire in game because it looks cool with retractable tail wheel.

Flown by a good pilot I would choose it over wither of the two mentioned below.

Fw 190 A5 1.65 is on map as is G2

Id like to have Fw 190 A6, the A5 1.65 overheats faster than a Tempest wearing Latex Y fronts. I think the G2 sould also be shown the door and replaced by the G6 Late which is almost as good but probably more historic.

Zorin
26-11-2006, 20:31
The G2 is in to represent the G4/TROP and I have no idea if the G6 late was in service by July 1943. Personally I wouldn't mind the G6 late, but I'd like to keep this as historically correct as possible.

Boemher
26-11-2006, 21:25
Fair point with the G4 trop, maybe limit number of VIII and G2s and rely more on G6 and Spit Vb L.F.

As for the Fw 190s involvement I have a knowledge gap there. I know Fw 190 served in North Africa and also over Italy, Im sure I read somewhere That Fw 190 A5/G3s were used to bomb the Allied beach heads?

Maybe this was at Anzio and not Scicily?

If it wasnt present I dont mind its removal from the map.

Zorin
26-11-2006, 21:41
http://www.31stfightergroup.com/31stReference/history/307th.html

They list Fw190 to be shot down over Sicily during Operation Husky.

Xiola
27-11-2006, 10:05
Awww dont remove the FW,

this map is already good, the Fw190A5 was chosen for its higher top speed at low level than the FW190A6.

We play enough 190A6 vs Spitfire IX, why not FW190A6/A5 ATA vs Spitfire VIII?

This map is great fun to play from either side and keeps the server full.

Just add the FW190A6, nothing else needs to be done.