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Blackmessiah
20-11-2006, 22:13
My proposals for maps:

GREECE

GR:
P.11c as P.11f and P.24
Gladiator
Blenheim
japanese B5N as Fairey Battle

GB:
Hurricane Mk.I (or Mk.II?)
Blenheim

DE:
Bf 109E-7
Bf 110G-2 as Bf 110C
Ju 88
He 111
Ju 87
Fiat CR.42 as Henschel Hs 123

IT:
G.50
CR.42



CRETE

GB: Blenheim, Gladiator, Hurricane Mk.I (or Mk.II?)
DE: Ju 52, Bf 109E-7, Ju 88, He 111, Ju 87, Bf 110


I leave ships and the rest of whole stuff to professional map makers. ;)

Algorex
20-11-2006, 22:38
Well with that plane set the red don't stand a chance killing the ground targets or shooting down the bombers (ju88 rear gunners eat hurri Is for breakfast), not to mention bf110g flying in circles and laughing at the poor *******s in blens and kates.

In all this plane set alone needs a lot of work.

Firelok
20-11-2006, 22:56
We have a map called Balkans already which works and is quite popular...
here's the planeset...

RED
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkIIc
J8A(Gladiator)
BlenheimMkIV
SpitfireMkVb
BLUE
Bf-109E-4
Bf-109E-4/B
Bf-109E-7
Bf-109F-2
He-111H-2
Ju-87B-2
MC-200series3
CR_42
G_50
P_11c
IAR80
IAR81a
MC-202_III

There is something for everyone here with fairly balanced 1941 planes.

Blackmessiah
21-11-2006, 00:03
Well with that plane set the red don't stand a chance killing the ground targets or shooting down the bombers (ju88 rear gunners eat hurri Is for breakfast), not to mention bf110g flying in circles and laughing at the poor *******s in blens and kates.

Hehe! I know this planeset gives a big advance to Luftgangsta, but this is a history, isn't it? Had Greece any chance?

Better turning Hurris can outturn Bf's 109 and 110. Mk.IIc variant could smash even Ju 88. B5N Kate as Fairey Battle can try to sink some German or Italian ships.

By the way: What did Polish pilots on P.11c against Lufwaffe wonder planes? Were they sitting in a bar and talking - this is impossible. Not. They shot down over 100 enemy planes - more than French, Norwegian, Danish, Dutch and Belgian pilots together. :D

NS-IceFire
21-11-2006, 00:13
Hehe! I know this planeset gives a big advance to Luftgangsta, but this is a history, isn't it? Had Greece any chance?

Better turning Hurris can outturn Bf's 109 and 110. Mk.IIc variant could smash even Ju 88. B5N Kate as Fairey Battle can try to sink some German or Italian ships.

By the way: What did Polish pilots on P.11c against Lufwaffe wonder planes? Were they sitting in a bar and talking - this is impossible. Not. They shot down over 100 enemy planes - more than French, Norwegian, Danish, Dutch ang Belgian pilots together. :D
I'm a huge student of history but history and video games do not always mix. Particularly if there are people playing out both sides. They are either hardcore re creationists or they are very unhappy and leave the server.

Particularly badly unbalanced maps will do one of three things:
1) Make people angry and induce bad behavior
2) Make people join one team only, further destroying the balance of the scenario
3) Make people leave the server

None are good ideas. In all maps there needs to be a 50/50 chance for either side to win the battle. No map on the server is completely 50/50 but its close enough and they have been given enough thought and completely tested to be very close. The sever stats will usually show if red is winning one map all the time and blue is winning another all the time. The less determinable factor is of course that there are different players with differing skill levels all the time so there is always room for argument...the average player is probably only good with 3-4 aircraft and only familiar with one style of air combat (or none!) so they may have a narrower view.

I'm a generalist...I'm not great at any one thing so I like to do everything. I've done level bomber, dive bomber, tank buster, fighters of all differing types (in horizontal and energy styles), interceptor, and so forth. I've flown essentially every plane in the game and consider myself to be adequate to good in all of them. I'm never great in any of them but just good enough to be happy. But I feel this gives me a good range of knowledge and a solid ability to understand what each plane is capable of...given the right plane and given the proper balance of a map every map is winnable for either team and should have evenly balanced enough aircraft to win. Sometimes the aircraft are of completely different types but the whole set of aircraft balances things out in the end.

norrismcwhirter
21-11-2006, 08:21
Talking of map stats and balance, last time I played UKD in anger, it was running at red winning at something like a 2-3:1 ratio to blue which implied that somethng was biasing the results.

Anyone know what it is these days for both servers?

Ideally, it would be good if ratio of wins for a map was assessed at each stats reset (it would have presumably been played quite a few times by then) and some kind of review performed as to:

a. If biased, what could be causing it
b. Whether there cause is acceptable (some scenarios perhaps should favour one side to be semi-historical)
c. If not (or if a map isn't biased enough) what should be done about it

I think, in general, it's fair to say that maps involving ground attack are going to favour the red side as they have more attacking options available; blue "only really have" the FW190 JABO, Ju88, He111, Ju87 and Me110 (latter are all slow) whereas red have a wider, more capable array on offer, particularly when US planes are involved (P38, P47, B25, A20). And that's not including the AI aircraft which can be available.

Firelok
21-11-2006, 15:14
Interestingly enough Blues 'outwin' Reds massively on UKDed1 which has a stat function of this :)
UkDed2 is a little harder to gauge, I doubt it is massively bias one way or another and I for one consider it particularly important that things balanced in a mission winning direction. As for the relative strengths of Ground attack I wouldn't dismiss Blues abilities so lightly, most of their fighters take a larger bombload than reds,they have 'fairly' regular access to 2000kg+ bombloads with the Ju88/He111 plus and this is 'the biggy' the comparison you are making assumes both sides are attacking the same number and quality of ground targets which is rarely the case, most often these are tailored by distance,composition,available loadouts/aircraft to give both side a similar time-limit to destroy their objectives on a given map.

Firelok
21-11-2006, 17:26
Mostly the team with better ground attack coordination wins on UKD2. Sometimes numbers compensate for coordination.
^^This is very true^^ and a close formation bomber attack is so much more likely to survive it's mission too.

norrismcwhirter
21-11-2006, 18:34
OK, maybe I mis-phrased the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I should have said that a blue flier in those aircraft was less likely to make it back to base alive due to the relative merits of the aircraft (particularly the Ju87); this may account for a higher incidence of getting wiped out every run which is likely to bias how many people are prepared to coordinate their attack.

The P47 and P38, in particular, offer perhaps the best combination available in terms of loadout and ability to get in & out alive; the 190 is not far behind, though.

norrismcwhirter
21-11-2006, 19:14
Yes, I'm sure that's the case. It's just a suggestion that making maps which appear to be fair (not saying that they are not) is an 'open loop' business but that reviewing the results maps to make adjustments would 'close the loop'

In terms of right fighter-bombers, the La-5FN isn't bad at all - largely untouchable below 3k. I'm sure you'll agree that being able to reach your target, deliver even a (relatively small) load [and return] is more important than carrying a heavy load but never reaching it in the first place.

Firelok
21-11-2006, 19:40
your definately right that it's an ongoing business tweaking maps as things go on over time. Until the scenario has been run numerous times it's impossible to get a grip on how it really works. I don't think a map has even left the 'testing' stage properly until it's been won by both sides.
As for surviving to RTB in a dedicated ground attack aircraft :rolleyes: luck counts for a lot, defensive weapons don't really come into their own unless your part of a five or six plane close formation, and even then this is about 'discipline'
On a similar note, the Dortmund map I made with B17s I've often flown this as a lone B17 and even with an escort you are just there to gift someone points.
However as part of a 6 plane formation (well gaggle really) when everyone kept close the defensive fire really starts to work. 5 or 6 enemy fighters destroyed more badly damaged even as they dived in, very impressive really.

norrismcwhirter
21-11-2006, 22:15
^ Be that as it may, it's still more likely that you will be able to hit your target and get out than with most other aircraft operating below 3k. The 190 certainly doesn't have a lot of options at this altitude, particularly if our anachronistic La5FN is about.

Firelok: Unfortunately, I think the AI gunners are overmodelled so close formations are more deadly then they, perhaps, should be. As an example, the RAF used to send unescorted bombers over during the BoB and they were consistently mauled even though it was thought their formation would be defense enough. Same can, arguably, be said about unescorted B17 raids where losses were often unacceptably high. I think someone was saying over at UBI (or maybe it was during the Oleg interview thing) that, in this game, if a side is on "the receiving end", there can be 90% losses which is just completely a-typical of real life. Then again, it is just a game.

Firelok
21-11-2006, 22:28
Well yes there was a defence arguement current at the time that ' the bomber will always get through' this influenced their thinking wrongly.
I think unescorted BlenheimIVs are still going to get battered in this game too by the 109E4 etc. I think you are right about success of air to air gunnery but this must apply I think to every plane(bomber or otherwise) and the sort of damage that would make a real pilot peel off and check the parachute straps and the canopy will just be peanuts to the average bomber-killer parked on someone's six. This is why I think those AI gunners are good at what they do, never I notice when I need them always when i'm the attacker though :rolleyes:

NS-IceFire
22-11-2006, 01:02
Norris...I do agree...Blue is a bit weak on the ground attack in some respects. Particularly survivability. They seem to make up for it somewhat by offering a fighter bomber in nearly every aircraft available. The 109 and 190 are both technically fighter-bombers as they both can carry at 250kg or 500kg bomb which is not bad. Its not like a P-38 or P-47 or a IL-2 but you can in theory have an entire side loaded with fighter-bombers without too much penalty. Plus the bombers have enormous bombs so survival may not work out but the punch delivered is not equaled at all.

The only way I can see this balance being fixed in the game would be with a FW190F-9 + Panzerblitz rockets and a Me410 with all of its ground attack loads configured. It'd also be nice to have a Ju-188 or a Do-217 in the later models with as much speed as we could be given with those two bombers. That'd help the Luftwaffe's attack chances. Be that as it may, the Ar-234 should at least give a slight bonus in some of the later scenarios...its not really fast enough to guarantee that it won't be intercepted but its still a solid chance and a great way to get around fast.

Blackmessiah
22-11-2006, 08:07
This is not enough to say "AI gunners are overmodelled". They are bloody Vassily Zaitsev multiplied in every plane. :D First shot from 300-400 m and my engine is gone, my head is gone or I'm smoking. B-17 is practically untouchable by weaker fighters (with no MG 151/20 or Mk 108), Pe-2 and Ju 87 have sharpshooters on board.

One polish pilot in september 1939 shot down two He 111 bombers on his P.11c and damaged third bomber Do 17. Try to do this in a game. :wall:

Back to the thread's topic:

There is Poland 1939 scenario possible. Germans with Bf 109E-4, Ju 87 and He 111 try to destroy polish industrial area. Polish pilots on P.11c try to defend it. Polish air forces also try to destroy german panzer columns heading east. Map could be Lvov. As polish P-23 and P-37 bombers can be Su-2 (or R-10) and Il-4. So polish forces have ground targets to destroy.

What do you think?

Algorex
22-11-2006, 08:48
Back to the thread's topic:

There is Poland 1939 scenario possible. Germans with Bf 109E-4, Ju 87 and He 111 try to destroy polish industrial area. Polish pilots on P.11c try to defend it. Polish air forces also try to destroy german panzer columns heading east. Map could be Lvov. As polish P-23 and P-37 bombers can be Su-2 (or R-10) and Il-4. So polish forces have ground targets to destroy.

What do you think?

Well let me put it this way, would you enjoy flying this on red? Knowing that you don't have any chance of intercepting any of the enemy planes (this was proved in the Warsaw map way back with ju87s outrunning p11s)? Yes the map would be historical with luftwaffe wiping the PAF off the map in minutes, or just ignoring the p11 trying to intercept. So i ask again would you fly this on red or on blue with virtually no challenge? Personally i wouldn't.

One of the main criteria for a good map is a (fairly) even plane set and if there's ground targets you should have at least one non-AI bomber available.

Gordano
22-11-2006, 11:11
There is Poland 1939 scenario possible. Germans with Bf 109E-4, Ju 87 and He 111 try to destroy polish industrial area. Polish pilots on P.11c try to defend it. .

Any chance of someone dusting off the old Warsaw map? It was a nice interesting scenario.

The only reason people disliked it was due to the fact that it was the failsafe map for FBD during the period of 3+ server crashes a day! The same fate was meet by Malta when it set as failsafe.

MrAsh
22-11-2006, 11:41
personally i love the warsaw map on red or blue, once I had a gaggle of 3 p11's chasing me towards the targets at low level and I blew two of them up with my SC1000 :D

Defending the objectives in a stuka is also quite an interesting experience, maybe give the map to Firelock for some twiddling first....

Chatanooga
22-11-2006, 15:42
Talking of map stats and balance, last time I played UKD in anger, it was running at red winning at something like a 2-3:1 ratio to blue which implied that somethng was biasing the results.


Interestingly enough Blues 'outwin' Reds massively on UKDed1 which has a stat function of this

I have just checked UK2 stats, according to SC results for all maps played since last stat reset.

Total missions = 523

Red wins 75
Blue wins 59

This dosnt say how close the other 389 missions were. I could manually look up each mission and calculate planes killed/targets lost but thats far to much work :)

Firelok
22-11-2006, 16:06
Oh come on rosy-tinted spectacles or what!
That Warsaw map sucked and was instantly voted against as soon as folks realised what the vote command did. Bf109s and Heinkels!!! man this is real good,lol. Try it out in QMB four groups of P_11c's vs some Heinkels and 109s and this has got to tell you it won't work.
Frankly the P11_c we have isn't fit for anything (maybe carrying mail.) maybe chasing Cr42s.It's on the Belgrade map and Balkans as extra interest really and is occaisionally flown.
There are other historical scenarios we could do that just won't work too, aswell like the Battle of France, Norway 1940. Hell most of the Winter War and Continuation War is closed to us for lack of planes.

One dirty word for you guys ~Balance~

p.s. I'm sorely tempted to 'dust off' the Warsaw scenario and give it to you as there's no better way of proving folks wrong than giving them what they asked for.
p.p.s. It's on UKDed1 in all it's glory. ;)

NS-IceFire
22-11-2006, 22:17
This is not enough to say "AI gunners are overmodelled". They are bloody Vassily Zaitsev multiplied in every plane. :D First shot from 300-400 m and my engine is gone, my head is gone or I'm smoking. B-17 is practically untouchable by weaker fighters (with no MG 151/20 or Mk 108), Pe-2 and Ju 87 have sharpshooters on board.

One polish pilot in september 1939 shot down two He 111 bombers on his P.11c and damaged third bomber Do 17. Try to do this in a game. :wall:

Back to the thread's topic:

There is Poland 1939 scenario possible. Germans with Bf 109E-4, Ju 87 and He 111 try to destroy polish industrial area. Polish pilots on P.11c try to defend it. Polish air forces also try to destroy german panzer columns heading east. Map could be Lvov. As polish P-23 and P-37 bombers can be Su-2 (or R-10) and Il-4. So polish forces have ground targets to destroy.

What do you think?
Only if you log in and play with the P.11c every time the map comes on.

Lets try and get real here...the 109s will slaughter the P.11c's. Maybe in a COOP where you could plan out the attack and try and arrive above the fighters and bombers would you have a chance as the Polish fighter pilot. The Heinkels top speed is higher than the P.11c's top speed...so it'd be an exercise in futility.

Firelok
23-11-2006, 02:48
Any chance of someone dusting off the old Warsaw map? It was a nice interesting scenario.

What about recasting it with Cr42s as Hs123? they still out-speed P11c's but not as much as Stukas and no pesky rear-gunner.
Lets just have a J8A vs Cr42 map and be done with it. ;)

Firelok
30-11-2006, 06:22
Any chance of someone dusting off the old Warsaw map? It was a nice interesting scenario.

The only reason people disliked it was due to the fact that it was the failsafe map for FBD during the period of 3+ server crashes a day! The same fate was meet by Malta when it set as failsafe.

Are you REALLY REALLY Sure you want me to fix this up to include on Server2??

I will, because it's about giving people what they ask for, in my book.

But for the record I think your 'madder than Mad Jack McMad winner of last years Mr Madman competion' though.
your thoughts... :D

Boemher
30-11-2006, 14:30
Call me a sadist but it would be nice if we had the Warsaw map and gave the Poles the Blenheim and gave the Luftwaffe the Fiat Cr 42 to act as the Hs 123 bi plane bomber and also to encourage some dogfighting between it and the P.11.

Firelok
01-12-2006, 02:46
Relying on one side having exclusively AI Bombers isn't very good really IMO, and the current Red target are set up for P11_c strafing only at the moment.
But....
Hs123 (Cr42) vs P11_c could be cool. Current version of Warszawa has enormous amounts of trucks for blues to destroy because of the Ju87B2's unrestricted 1000kg loadout. having this a realistic 250kg+4x50kg Stuka loadout would be good. Luftwaffe targets the airfields the P_11c takes off from and No targets for Reds other than take off and defend.
Blues
Hs123(Cr42) unlimited
Ju87B2 (restricted bombload.)
*maybe even* Bf109-E4 = 6 :eek:
Reds.
P11_c unlimited.

It's making me laugh already (particularly the about-turn on this thread.)

So there you go use the current Warszawa or strike out in a new direction.
Swarms of P11_c's trying to hold off the Stukas just after take-off is a quite historic approach too.