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NS-IceFire
07-01-2007, 05:02
Ok...I'm anxious to do Operation Autumn Storm over again and use the real Manchuria map. With that in mind I'm working on a test setup of the map. The idea is to present as many of the really important stuff without spending a lot of time working on the target areas. If things go well I can spruce it up a bit but ultimately I'm curious to see how the map will perform online under load.

My guess is that the map, although bigger than some of the others, is sparsely populated with objects except in the south area. It may be similar in load to Normandy or barring that...maybe Kyushu. Both which are workable provided that the targets are somewhat conservative.

I've also decided that a more limited planeset may be ideal to prevent lag on a huge server. So here's what I have setup so far...we can argue over including a couple of planes here and there or substituting one for another.

Soviets
A-20C
IL-10
P-63C
Yak-9UT

Japanese
Ki-84-Ib
Ki-100
N1K-2Ja
J2M3

The Japanese targets would be generally vehicle or light armor targets which are destroyable by the bomb loads of three of the four aircraft. Soviet targets would be a harbour area somewhat close to the Japanese base.

A-20C's saw service in this theater and players can use either skip bombing or torpedo attacks. I could sub it for the A-20G if we felt that to be better (slightly less accurate historically but not a huge deal) suited. The IL-10 is my next choice because of its speed and balanced firepower options. P-63C because it was the primary VVS fighter in the area. Yak-9UT...not sure on this selection. It could instead be a Yak-3P, a Yak-3 VK-108, or the more historical but largely useless given the opposition Yak-9D or 9M.

I've picked the four Japanese fighters because I feel they are the best suited to defending the harbour against the Soviet aircraft and because three of the four can carry bombs for ground attack. I'm open to suggestions here...perhaps remove the Ki-100 and add the A6M7 for pilots who are familiar with the Zero but not much else? Also possibly add the Ki-43-II which would likely be very fun for pilots and once again...easy to get into for the turn and burn crowd.

I'm open to bringing the totals up to 10 aircraft (so add 1 more per side) but I'd like to keep it limited...at least right now...and see how it goes.

I am really excited by the map....its beautifully detailed in the important places and it has some great hills and valleys in the cities and harbour areas which look great!

Skinny
07-01-2007, 22:27
Ah cool, I was just doing some research to make a similar map :)
Its hard to find much info on that war theatre, but I did come up with this:
http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp

might be usefull to you?

I was thinking about a radical different planeset however. Almost all our maps have a wealth of different airplanes, fighters and bombers, but sometimes its fun to just pitch one or 2 plane types against each other. For instance, that Polish maps with P11s against Stuka's is great fun. If you start adding fighters and bombers to both sides, it quickly gets "yet another 194x" map.

Therefore, what I was thinking was giving reds basically only the IL-10 with no fighter escorts, to perform a bombing raid. Russians wherent expecting any fighter resistance but of course, Russian intelligence was wrong :).

I wasnt certain yet which Jap fighter to put against it, I know the Ki-84 served in manchuria but it might be a bit uber against the IL-10 (although i'm not quite sure of that yet. Havent flown the IL10 online yet).

Another interesting option would be a late war Zero, which also saw action in that theatre, and while much more manouvrable, its also considerably slower than the IL10 (I think ?) which could even things out and give the IL10s a good fighting chance (not unlike the Stuka's vs the P11s).

Anyway, if I'm going to work on this, it will be very limited planesets. Forcing people to grab a bomber (or ground pounder) from time to time, is good fun IMO. It also makes things look a bit more historical, as I don't think many airbattles where fought with 12 different planetypes.

NS-IceFire
07-01-2007, 22:32
It would be neat Skinny...and as good as P.11 vs Stuka was...it was THE most voted out map. People hate being limited....they will either vote or want the map changed. I think 4-5 aircraft per-side is not bad...but limit them further and they seem to get really uppity :)

I'm good with flying absolutely anything...case in point...I once participated in a TB-3 dogfight coop mission.

Anyways...would be interesting...but maybe too limited. In this case, I'm trying to fight lag mostly.

Skinny
07-01-2007, 22:44
It would be neat Skinny...and as good as P.11 vs Stuka was...it was THE most voted out map. People hate being limited....they will either vote or want the map changed.

thats easily solved, remove the vote option :)
Seriously, too many people only want to fight late war uber fighters, and will request map change even when its a 1941 map full of fighters and bombers. In the P11 map, its even worse for them, not only do they have no choice, they are also stuck in the slowest planes of the game. Not many people will find it so horrible to have to fly a (late) Zero though.

Anyway, we shouldnt deny our audience their ufo's on each map, but a few maps I think is well worth it. I know people that used to leave on the P11 map, and now rank it among their favourites. We've seen similar resistance with pacific maps until people learned to appreciate US (and japanese) aircraft.


Anyways...would be interesting...but maybe too limited. In this case, I'm trying to fight lag mostly.


Thats where I have no experience at all.. expect total disaster on my first maps in that regard :D

Firelok
09-01-2007, 23:00
Ok, ran this this evening and it worked Ok lag wise. I think keeping a very drastic reducion of added objects and a small planeset is a good idea though, esp. as it so nice anyways. IL10s are a real handful with the blue airbase so close to the target but It made for some hectic dogfights over the harbour.
The breif was a bit wrong but i'll edit it to show the right markings info, blues won the map quite quickly I was surprised, perhaps the IL10 pilots got distracted into dogfights rather than hammering their targets but toughening up the blue targets a bit might be an idea. As a test of Manchuria's suitabilty as an online map choice I have to give this a cautious thumbs up.

NS-IceFire
09-01-2007, 23:36
Thanks! That does sound good....yeah blue's targets were almost an afterthought in the test version. I will put a little more spacing in there, cautiously add some more targets and a bit of flak here and there and see how that goes. I can always dial it back a bit but I won't go too wild on things.

Was the planeset ok or should I change anything up? Did anything feel overpowering or useless?

NS-IceFire
10-01-2007, 05:21
Paulie was kind enough to load this one up for us tonight. Things seemed to go pretty flawlessly...it was VERY smooth tonight. Maybe just good connections all around and the low numbers of players (I think we maxed at 15) but performance was great so I've taken a very deep breath and started adding to make the map more finished.

I'm making some changes to how it works so we'll see what it ultimately ends up looking like. Ultimately its still going to be very conservative but we'll see what I can get away with and trim down from there.

NS-IceFire
12-01-2007, 23:30
Updates to Manchuria now that I feel that it will work quite well (the test the other night was VERY smooth).

Now we get to see how well it scales with some more objects and guns on the map.

http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/manchuria01.jpg
http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/manchuria02.jpg
http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/manchuria03.jpg
http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/manchuria04.jpg

I haven't gone crazy on flak or objects...it can be tweaked down if need be but hopefully this is a fun map. Planeset is now...

Soviets
A-20G
P-63C
IL-10
Yak-3P
Yak-9U

Japanese
Ki-84-Ib
J2M3
N1K-2Ja
A6M7-62

Both sides have decent capabilities for fighter-bomber ground attack. The A-20G is meant to be used against the ships primarily. The Yak-3P offers the Russians a dogfighter to be matched against the best Japanese aircraft as well as an "ease of use" type plane in the theater. Similarly the A6M7 offers the Zero as a common and well flown type as well as a decent ground attack aircraft.

The J2M3 and N1K-2Ja fared EXTREMELY well against the Soviet opposition the other night. One is fast, one is incredible in its maneuvering in all respects, and both are very well armed.

Hopefully this is an enjoyable map!

Yellow 2
13-01-2007, 10:19
Looking forward to this the Japanese plane set looks particularly appetizing. :D

FlyingFinn
13-01-2007, 10:38
Wow! Looking very good!

Excellent job IceFire!

Algorex
13-01-2007, 10:54
Looking forward to this the Japanese plane set looks particularly appetizing. :D

Try the Il-10, you'll be suprised. I know few of the blues were last time ;)

NS-IceFire
14-01-2007, 05:26
Try the Il-10, you'll be suprised. I know few of the blues were last time ;)
Yeah it eats 20mm shells for breakfast! :)

Still...it can't sustain a beating from the quad cannon armed Japanese fighters that are prevalent. Its quite the battle that takes place between the aircraft in this planeset.

The "full fat" (or 1% milk version) setup of this map is nearly ready to go. I've tweaked things sufficiently to put it into production I think. The real test will be to put it under load and see how it goes.

Boemher
06-02-2007, 16:27
The IL-10 I shot at yesterday took 43 20mm hits from the J2M3 I was flying and it flew off with its rudder slightly damaged and its port elevator torn off. It still had elevator authority as it was evading right until I ran out of ammo! The A20 is easier to shoot down than the IL-10.

An observation regarding the Blue targets is that their close proximity to the Blue airbase causes lag for me due to the large about of objects/players/flak in the immediate area. The Red team were also doing a good job of blowing the crap out of the Blue airbase and also decimating the targets at the same time. Striking airbases with fighter bombers is fine and can cause havoc, but in this scenario the IL-10 is top dog especially against Japanese aircraft cannon :mp5:

I wonder how it stands up to Hispanno fire ....

NS-IceFire
08-02-2007, 02:51
There's going to be an upgraded version of this with slight modifications. There will be a blue air start further back inland to solve the vulching problem and also to fix things when the server is full and the blue base gets filled up.

I believe I'm going to limit the IL-10's to about 15 planes. Its still plenty but it'll force people to take other types if they waste the IL-10's needlessly.

They do seem to take quite a few hits. It seems that you can pour fire into them without much effect or they get hit critically and the wing comes off or something. Don't aim for the fuselage...thats for sure!

Boemher
08-02-2007, 16:08
The IL-10 has inherited the damage model of the old Lagg3 - infact I think it has its old flight model too :D

irish
08-02-2007, 16:29
lots of lag on this map yesterday....as boemer sez, once you reach Yuki harbour it gets unplayable (at least for me) ....probably due to the close proximity of the Blue AB.

I think the VVS had maybe 2 or 3 operational IL10 squadrons availible for their thrust into Manchuria, so limiting their numbers is a good idea.

BTW Boemer: I was the IL10 you had problems downing. You did a lot more damage than you think. If you had stayed alive a little longer you would have gotten the kill as i was forced to bail due to the wreck you made of my controls ;)

NS-IceFire
08-02-2007, 22:13
The IL-10 has inherited the damage model of the old Lagg3 - infact I think it has its old flight model too :D

LOL....at least this one has some justification for it :)

Boemher
09-02-2007, 10:37
BTW Boemer: I was the IL10 you had problems downing. You did a lot more damage than you think. If you had stayed alive a little longer you would have gotten the kill as i was forced to bail due to the wreck you made of my controls ;)

Irish Im pretty sure I did. I rtb'd because I had no ammo. No kill message - maybe you flew all the way home then bailed?

Chatanooga
11-02-2007, 13:31
The breif needs editing in this.

The markings section says that blue should use german and hungarian markings :)

NS-IceFire
11-02-2007, 14:45
The breif needs editing in this.

The markings section says that blue should use german and hungarian markings :)

Noted! I've actually fixed that on the updated version so we're in good shape!