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Chatanooga
08-01-2007, 16:44
Been thinking about making a map for a while now, and with the new flurish of activity I am finally getting off my behind and making a start.

My plan is as follows.

November 1943 USAAF daylight bombing raid on Vemork hydro-electric plant to finally stop the production heavy water)

Reds

Have to destroy said plant and some surrounding armour / vehicles

Blues need to protect said plant

Propossed plane set

Red

B17 (historically accurate for the daylight raid in Nov 43)
B25 (for those who dont like AI bombers)
P-51 B (bombs restricted)
P-47 D10 (bombs restricted) (edited to change from P-39)

Blue

109 G6 AS (with nose mk108)
190 A5
110 G2 (with some restrictions to gunpods)

The map will be one of the snowy ones with some snow to affect visibility.

How does this look on the plane set side of things to those of more experience than I. My concearn is that the P-51 may be a little to quick for the Axis fighters, however its role is to protect the Bombers so top speed may not play the same role as if it were fighter vs fighters

I wish to keep the planeset restricted to a small number of planes.

Let me know your thoughts :D

MrAsh
08-01-2007, 16:49
P47 over P39?

I don't think USAAF had these over germany at this stage in the war, they had plenty of 38's and 47's though.........

sounds good matey :)

Chatanooga
08-01-2007, 16:58
Fair point ;) after a little more reading the P-47 D-10 would fit the scenario better :)

Making it

Red

B17 (historically accurate for the daylight raid in Nov 43)
B25 (for those who dont like AI bombers)
P-51 B (bombs restricted)
P-47 D10 (bombs restricted)

Blue

109 G6 AS (with nose mk108)
190 A5
110 G2 (with some restrictions to gunpods)

Algorex
08-01-2007, 17:01
Why the airacobra? I know i keep repeating myself when lobbying for lightnings and jugs as escorts in the USAAF missions, but the fact is those were "the" planes for it for quite some time.

This looks like a perfect mission for the upcoming (4.08m) norway map with fjords and hills.

Second norway map I liked to see is a late 1944 coastal command shipping raid against coastal iron ore convoy defended by JG5s bf-109G6 lates/G14s and FW-190A6/A8s. Raid force could be flying mossies and beaus supported by RAF mustangs.

LeadSucker
08-01-2007, 17:17
The Vemork factory is in a narrow valley close to the town of Rjukan in Southern Norway. It was made famous by a movie. See this link for some background: http://www.hydro.com/en/about/history/1929_1945/1943_2.html Hydro is the company that owns (and owned) the facility. Now it is a museum.

This is what the link says about the air raid:

Many killed in bomb raid
The heavy water plant was rebuilt and production restarted during the next six months. On the night of 16 November 1943, 140 US bombers swooped in over Rjukan and totally destroyed the Vemork power station and electrolyser plant. Many people were killed. After that, the Germans gave up producing heavy water at Vemork.

Good luck with the project but I would suggest you wait for a map with a narrow valey. It would be snow in this area around 16 November 1943. Also this is very close to the mountains covering most of the central part of southern Norway. (My uncle lived in these mountains as a commando soldier at the end of the war training the armed resistance. His colleagues performed the Vemork sabotage raid.)

Chatanooga
08-01-2007, 17:22
I would suggest you wait for a map with a narrow valey

I agree, but I dont mind starting on one of the current maps to get an idea of how to use the mission builder. Can always be relocated to a more suitable map if/when one is available.




My uncle lived in these mountains as a commando soldier at the end of the war training the armed resistance. His colleagues performed the Vemork sabotage raid.

The main reason I wanted to do this mission is because I found myself inspired by the stories of the Telemark sabatuers.

Zorin
08-01-2007, 17:23
I love the theme Chata :)

I saw that bad american movie(Always wondered why it took them so long to win the war when Germans were that stupid...) about it and later on the excellent BBC documentary and felt that it could work in IL2.

BUT I do believe this is better kept in the campaign or single mission department as there is nothing more than the Norsk Hydro facility itself and maybe the harbor at the lake in need to be destroyed. Nothing that would allow for a big fur ball action bomber hunt scenario. :(

Firelok
08-01-2007, 18:37
Wow! is 2007 year of 'lets write a DF' mission? :D
I've talked to Chata about this one before now, so I'm not going to go into details here. His problems are two-fold, the need for snow and the need for mountains. Neither of which we have together on any map at the moment.
Is 4.08 Norway a snowy map?? Maybe obscure bits of the Murmansk map might do but lack of suitable airbases might cause problems.

Zorin
08-01-2007, 18:44
Norway is a summer map, which is a real shame. :(

Chatanooga
08-01-2007, 19:03
Had a look at a few maps cant find right location yet, will have a look at murmansk later on tonight after D&D.

With regards to not having enough targets I had already thought about this, and decided to include a harbour/train station aswell as to give enough targets to allow for a furball to develop.

The location is more important than the snow, It is important for me to find a nice valley with a lake nearby, will have to mess with weather settings if I cant find a winter map, to see what results I can create. It may well be worth waiting on the new norway map for this and work on somthing else for now. :D

As a question, if I find the right location and airfields are a problem, can I create airstarts without a preset airfield ?

Algorex
08-01-2007, 19:06
You can but for landing and AI planes you need airfields.

KaiserB_uk
08-01-2007, 19:06
OT but will BoB have variable season maps?

Zorin
08-01-2007, 19:13
OT but will BoB have variable season maps?

I posted your question at simHQ where getting an answer from someone in the know is highly possible.

Chatanooga
11-01-2007, 01:57
Ok I have made a start on the map :) more details and screen shots will follow in time.

More importantly I have been reading a bit more about planes operational in Norway at the time.

In the actual USAAF bomber raid I believe there were no fighter escorts, obviously this wouldnt work online so the bombers will have fighter escorts.

From info gained from this source

http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1943/JG5-1.html

I have decided to revise the planeset.

Red

B-17
B-25
P-51B (bombs restricted)
P-47 D-10 (bombs restricted)

Blue

BF-109 G2
BF-109 G6
FW-190 A4 (maybe the A5 even though the A4 is quoted, but to balance the planeset the A5 may make more sense)

I'm undecided which planes I wish to limit in numbers for now.

Opinions and thoughts are welcome :)

Chatanooga
12-01-2007, 01:26
Some screenshots of how the targets are coming along :)

http://www.erinnavy.com/downloads/vemork1.jpg

and a closer view

http://www.erinnavy.com/downloads/vemork2.jpg

Chatanooga
12-01-2007, 14:21
The off site storage facility will be secondary targets

http://www.erinnavy.com/downloads/vemork3.jpg

I'm pretty much ready for a test run now, to see how it goes. Just need to sort out the ini file things (no doubt a few beers will help me pursuade Firelok to give me a few pointers :D )

stanford
12-01-2007, 19:22
Looks awesome mate. Thanks very much!

Zorin
12-01-2007, 19:34
Very well put together Chata :)

And I guess it is the best to build a nice power plant, as there is no way to mimic its real appearance within the limitations of objects we have.

Appearance in 1930:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/images/resi-vemorkin1930-l.jpg

Firelok
12-01-2007, 21:09
Ok, I've recieved this file outside the usual channels because Chata live around the corner from me. I'm uploading it tonight.vemork.mis (49kb)

p.s. special points awarded for pics of the secret Norwegian Resistance mountain base ;)

Algorex
13-01-2007, 02:04
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r140/algorex/still.png

*note, few minutes after the discovery a certain p-47 pilot bailed near the huts.

Firelok
13-01-2007, 02:34
Lol Algore, theres a motorbike and some bicycles down there for getaway purposes.

I flew Blue for this map and it was a little oppressive at the map start with P47s right over the base just after takeoff, after a few minutes it was less hectic. Lots of cloud cover made it easier to keep out the way until some height was gained. The Bf109G6 was flying without the benefit of an Mk108 nose cannon,(which i've fixed now BTW.). It seemed less laggy than the Apennines too, It's an unusual map and I don't quite know 'where it's at' yet. Next time we test i'm flying something with more than one engine ;)

p.s. I told you Chata that someone would fly the J8A and they did :D

Kat
13-01-2007, 02:38
Looks awsome, I joined the map late but got one bomb run in.. didn't really have time to setup the sight on my B25 so I DB'd - awsome location for the powerstation :D

Chatanooga
13-01-2007, 17:48
I was quite happy with how the first test went. I have made a few changes to try and avoid airstart spawn crashes.

Link to updated files sent to Firelok on PM

Kat
13-01-2007, 22:35
Great fun flying this tonight, bit of a shame about the cloud cover direct over the target, makes level bombing hard but just means we have fun throwing a B25 around the valley's instead :D.

Firelok
14-01-2007, 00:15
bit of a shame about the cloud cover direct over the target, makes level bombing hard
I thought it was an interesting coincidental feature myself, there seems to be a small window over both depending which direction you attack. Airstarts are better now and the extra flight time difference for Red fighters improved things for blues at the map start. We still need to get the right loadouts for blues I think :wall:

Zorin
14-01-2007, 00:22
Maybe one blue base could be relocated to the mountain airbase?

Kat
14-01-2007, 00:45
I thought it was an interesting coincidental feature myself, there seems to be a small window over both depending which direction you attack. Airstarts are better now and the extra flight time difference for Red fighters improved things for blues at the map start. We still need to get the right loadouts for blues I think :wall:
Oh I don't disagree it just meant, especially with the fighters around, most people will go in at +200ft to the target not +10000ft as the mountains help against fighters and a low level precision drop is more likely to be accurate.

I LOVED the map - brilliant fun and gave me some ideas for other maps.

1) Monte Casino - This one I'm definatly going to do.
2) another precision attack map using Mosquito's with Spitfires and/or Mustangs for escort.

NS-IceFire
14-01-2007, 00:52
Wait and see if we get the Italy dogfight map before you go and do Monte Casino. But I would very much like to see that scenario. My grandfather was at that battle actually.

As for this map...flew a FW190A-5 from the blue airbase tucked away between the mountain and the ridge. Fantastic setup I think this is. Some are saying that blue is at a disadvantage but I never found that. The FW190A-5 is a solid match against anything red team has and although red team has the luxury of attacking from three different directions...they ultimately have to fly through a narrow channel to hit the targets and they are faced with fighters and flak all over.

It was fun...great map!

Kat
14-01-2007, 01:26
Wait and see if we get the Italy dogfight map before you go and do Monte Casino. But I would very much like to see that scenario. My grandfather was at that battle actually.

What's the likelyhood of that? I don't mind doing it twice :) - and of course the italy map would need a nice peak with a town down below and a river. Not even sure we have a suitable map right now but if we do I can do it and then redo it for a new map if a better one arrives :).

Sonko
14-01-2007, 03:40
I liked the map and its setup but disliked playing on it (because I had about 2-25 fps on that map :rolleyes: ).

Good! :)

Firelok
29-06-2007, 06:20
I have corrected some 109G6 loadout issues that cropped up. (I hope)

Boemher
02-07-2007, 15:17
I know this was said on TS but the P38 would be nice and historic for the type of map this is. As you said Chatta in reality there probably wouldnt be any long range fighter escorts at all on this map if you were going for accuracy but given its 43 status the P38 J's range and performance is just made for the Vermok scenario.

The P51 on here is stretching the boundries for a Nov 43 map this map but I appreciate that it is a difficult plane to fly well so its performance isnt overbearing. Ideally for 43 USAAF bomber escort maps P47 and P38 are the choice.

Dortmund is really the P51s kind of map as an escort fighter, 44 planeset, deep penetration raids, decent 44 Blue line up to counter it.

Chatanooga
02-07-2007, 15:22
I know this was said on TS but the P38 would be nice and historic for the type of map this is. As you said Chatta in reality there probably wouldnt be any long range fighter escorts at all on this map if you were going for accuracy but given its 43 status the P38 J's range and performance is just made for the Vermok scenario.



I have discussed this possibility with Firelok, it may be made as a sneak change at somepoint (or as a variant for testing).

Boemher
02-07-2007, 15:27
PS keep the P51B for System if you want :)

PPS add Tempest for me if your feeling really generous

Firelok
04-07-2007, 12:21
So, are we going try the P38J then?

Chatanooga
04-07-2007, 13:24
Been doing some reading and I have to agree with Boemher that the P-38 would be historically more accurate. So all fine with me to try swapping the P-51 for the P-38. :D

Firelok
04-07-2007, 14:59
I've altered this and uploaded it.P38J isn't allowed bombs or rockets BTW either.

Firelok
05-07-2007, 04:06
Reds got a pasting I'm afraid, 38 shot downs vs 20. Sky full of G2's it was a bit harsh:rolleyes:

Boemher
05-07-2007, 10:24
Reds must have been pants yesterday if they were getting a pasting, as this planeset occurs on a few other maps with the exception of either the Spitfire or the Mustang ie Kasserine or Appenines.

The P38 and P47 should both be able to run away from the G2 and put up a good show fighting it at high altitudes.

If you are concerned with the G2s presence destabilising the map then it too can be removed as it too was not really present in November 43 - or the P51 B can be re added :p

Chatanooga
05-07-2007, 11:42
If you are concerned with the G2s presence destabilising the map then it too can be removed as it too was not really present in November 43

I have to disagree here,

Taken from Here (http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1943/JG5-1.html) and Here (http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/lister/OOB/OOB43-11.html)


On 30. November 1943 the fighter force of Luftflotte 5 was deployed as indicated below:

Stab JG 5 2 Bf 109G-2 at Petsamo

Stab III./JG 5 2 Bf 109G-2 at Petsamo
III./JG 5 34 Bf 109G-2 and 3 Bf 109F-4 at Petsamo and Alakurtti

Stab IV./JG 5 2 Bf 109G-2 at Lade
10./JG 5 5 Bf 109G-6 at Gossen and Lade
11./JG 5 21 Fw 190A-2/A-3 at Sola
12./JG 5 12 Fw 190A-4 at Herdla

Algorex
05-07-2007, 12:38
Alakurtti and Petsamo are in Lapland, you should know that chata ;)

Only the fighters from IV/JG5 could've dreamed of intercepting over vermork. Anyway the number of G6s was going up as the G2s and F4s were declining.

Boemher
05-07-2007, 19:08
I have just googled Vermok - I didnt realise it was in Norway. I thought it was in Germany.

If it was in Norway wouldnt the B17s be as likely to get intercepted by Bf 109 Ts and old F4s than they would be G2s Algore?

Algorex
05-07-2007, 20:35
I have just googled Vermok - I didnt realise it was in Norway. I thought it was in Germany.

If it was in Norway wouldnt the B17s be as likely to get intercepted by Bf 109 Ts and old F4s than they would be G2s Algore?

The attack happened on November 16, 1943.

Jafü-Norwegen had IV/JG5 as it's only grouppe and it was stationed at Stavanger-Sola (200 km southwest of Vemork), Trondheim-Lade (400km north of Vermork), Gossen (350 km northwest) and Herdla (200 km west) with

Stab IV/JG5 and part of 10./JG5: 11/7 Bf-109G-2, 3/1 Fw-190A-2 Lade
Rest of 10. : 6/4 Fw-190A-2/3 Gossen
11./JG5 and a par from 12./JG5: 9/6 Bf-109G-6, 2/- Fw-190A-2/3, 3/2 Fw-190A-4 Sola
12./JG5 minus a par: 13/11 FW-190A-2/3 Herdla

All the F-4s of JG5 were in the north and IIRC bf-109Ts were in Helgoland.

Firelok
09-07-2007, 08:03
Reds must have been pants yesterday if they were getting a pasting, as this planeset occurs on a few other maps with the exception of either the Spitfire or the Mustang ie Kasserine or Appenines.

The P38 and P47 should both be able to run away from the G2 and put up a good show fighting it at high altitudes.

If you are concerned with the G2s presence destabilising the map then it too can be removed as it too was not really present in November 43 - or the P51 B can be re added :p

THis map came up again yesterday and Reds did much better, they actually downed more planes. It seemed such a drastic thumping last week that it looked like the change to the P38 was doomed, I feel more positive about it now.

Boemher
09-07-2007, 10:26
Was looking at stats too for the most recent Vermok mission and it seemed the Red team did okay. Its easier to fly a Bf 109 or a Fw 190 here and get kills imo, but the 4 engined heavies and even the B 25s are a pretty daunting target while flying the BF 109 because "They call me Mr Glass" DM and Engine characteristics. The P38 and P47 should be able to run away from the German fighters easliy enough for a team mate to clear them but in reality its going to be down to team work for their continued success in shooting Blues down.

System-M-
26-10-2007, 21:43
Could it be possible to add the P-51 B to this map in some way. Since it has gone Red are getting trounced by Blue it seems most like to fly Bombers on this when you try to provide some sort of escort and your only 1 of 4 or 5 fighters against a full 14 players in fighters your chances even when working as a team of fighters are very low. i just feel a 51 nay give us a bit more of a chance to get a kill.

Zorin
26-10-2007, 22:14
Could it be possible to add the P-51 B to this map in some way. Since it has gone Red are getting trounced by Blue it seems most like to fly Bombers on this when you try to provide some sort of escort and your only 1 of 4 or 5 fighters against a full 14 players in fighters your chances even when working as a team of fighters are very low. i just feel a 51 nay give us a bit more of a chance to get a kill.

Any idea why it was removed in the first place?

NS-IceFire
27-10-2007, 04:34
I think at one point the balance had swung in Reds favour and Blue was doing badly but the last few times I've been on that map it was anything but. With the P-51 gone it seems like the red fighters are not very effective (most people can't make the P-47 or P-38 into an effective fighter without more discipline and teamwork) and consequently the red bombers seem to get pounced on.

I have a much better time in a FW190A-5 on this map.

Firelok
27-10-2007, 07:35
Page 2 of this thread pretty much covers why we decided to ship out the P51.
Putting it back isn't a problem, let's see what Chata says when he finds this thread:)

Sonko
27-10-2007, 09:31
For reds the P-47 is the plane to choose on this map. :mp5:

Algorex
27-10-2007, 10:42
Also you could try taking out the bf 109G2, this would limit the blues ability to climb and turnfight as the p-38j can keep up or even win a G6 in a turn. It's a historically sound thing as well so that shouldn't be a problem (like it really is with the pony)

Chatanooga
27-10-2007, 11:23
Im fine to re add the P-51, do we want to replace the P-38 with it or leave in the P-38 as well ?

Boemher
27-10-2007, 11:41
replace the P38 with P51 so we can all be Bud Anderson in back to the future 1943 ;)

If we need it for map balance fine but why can we then call it a 44 map and give Blue 44 planes too? If its a 43 map P38 does just fine against 43 Blue planes. Its not the P47 or P38s fault if they are regarded as not glamourous enough and didnt win teh war * Both are very good if flown by a good pilot.

The sitution you described on TS as reason for the re-inclusion of the P51 didnt make anysense to me System. You described a scenario where being in a Me 262 wouldnt even help because you said that the problem with flying a P38 on this map is if you get caught dogfighting at low altitude you will get shot down by 4 or 5 guys on Blue flying higher than you waiting for easy kills.

First off the P51 will never out turn a Bf 109 G2 so dogfighting is a no no and secondly the scenario you describe means death whatever plane you are in.

System-M-
27-10-2007, 14:28
First off the P51 will never out turn a Bf 109 G2 so dogfighting is a no no and secondly the scenario you describe means death whatever plane you are in.

The P-51 can out turn G2's

You are missing the point of what I was saying on TS.

On red you will be 4/5 fighters and 8/9 bombers against a full 15/16 Fw-190s and 109s. No Matter what you do Fly high and BnZ or go low and turn fight you will no matter what get caught and shot down in some form. Last night none of the blue pilots engaged the bombers as they were calling the gunners "uber" this ended up with 5 fighters engaged with all of the blue. 3 of us were working as a team and I tell you it was hard you would clear 1 guys 6 to find 4 on yours. dont remove the 38 if you add the 51. Its nothing abut "the 51 won the war at all" its just more manouverable than the 2 fighters we currently have and they can mix it up with the 109s and 190s to give the 38s a fighting chance. If its any 51 add the B. and maybe limit them to 10 or 15.

UK2 maps are meant to be semi-historical trying to keep things in balance. If we are going to be anal lets just scrap all other maps and remove planes that were not there.....


P.S. 51B's first came into operation in august 43.

T}{OR
27-10-2007, 14:38
The P-51 can out turn G2's

...combat flaps + centered ball do wonders with the stang. ;)

Algorex
27-10-2007, 14:50
...combat flaps + centered ball do wonders with the stang. ;)

Wonders maybe but not miracles, let's be honest if you outturn a g2 in a pony it tells more about the pilots than anything else. Plane vs plane the g2 will outturn the stang.

System-M-
27-10-2007, 15:08
I just checked up on things to be "historically accurate"

On the 16th November 1943 B-17s and B-24s went ahead and did bombing raids on the sites of Knaben and Rjuken (Vemork). They Flew all the way to targets and returned with NO Fighter escort. Only a small force of enemy fighters engaged the bombers in which 2 were lost.

So really there should be no escorts at all.

P-51B's from the Pioneer Group also escorted B-17s prior to the raids in Norway to Gelsenkirchen and Wesel in Germany. So If it had been a choice they could have easily been sent to Norway aswell.

Boemher
27-10-2007, 15:23
P 51 B with 4 x .50 cals will not imo alter the balance of this map - especially not if the reason for its inclusion is to dogfight Bf 109 G2s :D

I agree with you Algore, its about situation, speed, position and pilot. But in most situations and pilot match ups the Bf 109 G2 will out turn, out climb and out roll the P 51 B.

Heck I remember out turning you and System long enough to shoot you guys down in my Fw 190 A5 on that hilly Italy map when you guys were in P 51 Bs.

ps. "Things were happening fast, and on the 1st of December(1944), exactly 380 days after being formed, they were on their first mission over Europe. The 354th was at war."
from here http://www.web-birds.com/9th/354/354th.htm

System-M-
27-10-2007, 15:29
My records are from photocopies of B-17 Pilot Logs from the time. P-51s were escorting far earlier than that!

It nothing to do with armament Boehmer its just that they can put up a far better fight than anything else.


Stats pulled off of last nights vemork map. This for me proves a point that we need another fighter.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h294/CraigP87/VM.jpg

NS-IceFire
27-10-2007, 15:40
I'd say keep the P-47 and P-38 and just add in the P-51B. I agree with System in that the P-51 is slightly more survivable as a fighter as its performance IS better than the other two. I can still see myself flying a P-38 with its extra firepower (its easily double that of the Mustang in my mind). Can we just call this December 1943 and then the Mustang is perfectly historical? :)

Algorex
27-10-2007, 15:51
Why not take out the G2 first, then try the mustang.

Boemher
27-10-2007, 15:54
Because the servers will empty if there isnt a map which features either a G2 or a Mustang or a Spitfire or a Zero! you godamn fool!
insert paranoia here*

NS-IceFire
27-10-2007, 17:40
We should have a map with all TB-3 :D

TB-3 DOGFIGHTS!

Algorex
21-09-2008, 18:41
Now that we have the unholy cockpit for the B-17 this map suddenly feels totally different, tons better in fact!

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r140/algorex/newgraphics.jpg

T}{OR
22-09-2008, 21:43
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8089/il2fb2008092222185573tc2.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7882/il2fb2008092222212117ul1.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4195/il2fb2008092222232357ua0.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3831/il2fb2008092222234275bq1.jpg

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/2470/il2fb2008092222250076oc6.jpg

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5486/il2fb2008092222262378vv8.jpg

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/8937/il2fb2008092222272945cs8.jpg

Don't people know that attacking B-17s from 6 OC level and at the roughly same speed equals certain death?

After 5 kills and both enemy airfield and target destroyed (plus one guy vulched from 4K) - with half of the crew dead, no rudder and riddled with holes - she brought us home. ;)


EDIT: Sorry - 5 kills total in both sorties. :p

SMURFY1967
22-09-2008, 22:21
^^
Brilliant screenies.

Chatanooga
23-09-2008, 12:24
Great Screen shots, I really must get back in the air :)

Sonko
23-09-2008, 19:06
Great Screen shots, I really must get back in the air :)

Yes! Tonight?

Tim
23-09-2008, 19:15
Nice shots Thor, cant believe the lease of new life the heavys have brought to the game.:)

FlyingFinn
23-09-2008, 19:41
Get on UKD2 now you buggers.