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Kat
14-01-2007, 04:31
Ok I've going to look at this for my next project.

Whilst it's possible we may get a more accurate italy map there is no guarantee it'll have the landscape for such a project so I'm going to look at doing it and if a future map proves ideal I'll redo it. As I like maps doesn't bother me having to do it twice.

With that in mind some help finding a map suitable would be appreciated.

As you can see idealy we need a T shaped valley with the T preferably extending N to NW and on the NW side of the river in the valley a town. Then enough room on the North corner of the valley to build the Monastery.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/CassinoFirstPlan.jpg/640px-CassinoFirstPlan.jpg

Been messing and come up with two pictures

http://www.bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Monte2.jpg

And a test hit with 3 1000lbers. The vehicles are kubelwagons and are simply used to gauge what it might take to destroy targets in there.

http://www.bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Monte1.jpg

I envisage axis soldiers in the town, Monastory ( not strictly accurate but need some reward for blowing it up ) and below it.

The allies will have to destroy 100% of the Monastory and I'd guess about 85% of the troops in the town.

Allies will have a couple of troop/armour buildups on the southern side preparing for the attack. These will form a target for the germans.

Aircraft (current proposed line up):-
Allies
Low level option - mainly the town.
Spitfire VIII
Spitfire Vc
Spitfire Vb
Hurricane IIc
Mosquito

Level bombing option - intended to be the Monastory.
P51 (Escort configuration only)
P38 (Escort configuration only)
B25

Axis (no 108 gunpods)
109 G2 - 15 max
109 G6
190 A-6 - Jabo only
110 G2
Ju 87D
Ju 88

NS-IceFire
14-01-2007, 05:00
Kat...just curious. They were IX's and not VIII's?

Firelok
14-01-2007, 12:12
I dont know which map you intend to set this on out of our selection but have a look at the south-east corner of the Kuban map this would provide the sort of coastline you want and the mountains.
Also I'm thinking the XI is a little strong for a blues to deal with, I'm sure that there where both SpitVIIIs and SpitLFVbs around as well as the SpitIX squadrons. Other ideas would be concentrate on the low-level attack part of the operation by allowing the P-38J and P47Ds to have attack munitions and leave out the heavies.

Kat
14-01-2007, 12:16
Kat...just curious. They were IX's and not VIII's?
Origonally I was putting VIII's in but during my research (which is hard btw) I could only find records of IX's. Although at least one Vc squadron went from the desert up italy but was unable to assertain if it re-equipped.

I did however assertain that 1TAF RAF/RAAF where specialists in ground attack. They where the 'founders' of the FAC/GAC Cab rank system for supporting troops. Therefore IF I went a purely Fighter bomber approach it would be RAF not USAAF. Not saying that the USAAF didn't do fighter bomber missions just that the RAF did most of it, the USAAF I discovered generally used their heavies. Which given squadrons like the all black P51 operated in italy escorting B17's makes sense.

I am almost certain ( just couldn't prove it ) that VIII's and Vc's would have operated in italy too. So wouldn't mind putting limited numbers of IX's in.

Spit's WHERE used for GA though that I did find as I found a record of a RAF Spit pilot getting hit by flak whilst divebombing in italy.

Kat
14-01-2007, 12:24
So a purely GA option would be :-

RAF
IX - limited numbers
VIII
VC
IIC? I'm sure there where in theatre but couldn't prove it.
Mosquito

Luftwaffe
As origonal post which incedently is correct - found a record of luftwaffe strength in italy.

Kat
14-01-2007, 13:00
The Italy map playing is intended to be a sort of Cassino map. I am surprised to see that you haven taken all Italian planes and air forces out of your line up.
There where very little Italian aircraft in the luftwaffe and not sure how they'd been integrated into the allied airforce. There where ( by the end of the Cassino battle ) the following italian aircraft operating on the Luftwaffe side :-

10 G.55
7 MC.205
15 CR.42
No more than 54 ( unknown number of which where flying) SM.82
21 SM.79

Kat
14-01-2007, 13:04
From the same source :-
Bf109 G-6 - 76 servicable.
Bf109 G-4 - 10 servicable.
Fw190 - 15 servicable ( out of 44 on the books )
Ju88 - 50 servicable
Ju87 - 20 servicable
Bf110 - 10 sericable

Could plane limit everything with those numbers.

http://www.geocities.com/capeCanaveral/2072/LF3.html#S5/44

Firelok
14-01-2007, 13:25
Could plane limit everything with those numbers.

As time has gone on over the months of using ServerCommander I've grown into using the planes limit less and less. (we used it loads to begin with.) it can annoy the heck out of people and large lists of limited planes can be very hard to read esp. with lots of restricted loadouts.
We do have Italian planes potentially on both sides of this conflict at this stage of the war. However the ICBAAF (fighting for the allies.) was used against targets in the Balkans not Italy. Having said this our other two Italian mainland maps have this situation as it makes for an interesting planeset. For comparisions sake I thought you might like to see the other three 'Italian theatre' planesets BTW.
Sicily.mis
REDS
B-25J-1NA
B-25H-1NA
MosquitoFBMkVI
P-38J
P-40M
P-39D1
SpitfireMkVbLF
SpitfireMkVc
SpitfireMkVIII
FM-2
SeafireMkIII
BLUES
Bf-110G-2
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Fw-190A-5
Fw-190A-5165ATA
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
MC-205_III
----------------------------------
Italy.mis
REDS
P-39Q-10
P-40M
P-47D-22
P-51B-NA
MC-202_XII
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkVbLFCLP
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
A-20G
B-25J-1NA
P-38J
P-38L
P-51C-NT
BLUES
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190F-8
MC-205_I
MC-205_III
He-111H-6
Ju-88A-4
Me-210Ca-1
--------------
Apennines.mis
REDS
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-10
P-51B-NA
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
BLUES
Bf-109G-6
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-5
CR_42
Ju-87D-3
MC-202_VII
MC-205_III

Kat
14-01-2007, 14:14
There were Italians flying for the Allies, think in some sort of special Italian air corps. They were mostly equipped with series 2 Italian fighters and P-39, afaik.

According to you, there were 17 series 5 fighters serviceable at the end of the Cassino battle (more at the beginning?). How many Fw & Bf were in the area at that time? Just curious to make up my mind.
Note those are numbers as at 31May in the italian theatre. So yes fair to say there where a few more actually at the end of the battle although obviously these aircraft where also for the entire front.

I don't mind adding the italian aircraft. The limiting everything incedently was a little tongue in cheak and I know it's not entirely practical.

I want to include the IX as it was definatly in theatre but don't mind limiting it for balance sakes.

Loadouts would be unlimited.

Incedently do I understand it's feasable to restrict the number of a type in the air at any one time?

Kat
14-01-2007, 14:57
I've found two potential substitutes should I do the map now rather than wait. Any idea how certain the italian map is?

The two best locations I've found are on KhalkhinGol - on the west side of the map are two nice mountains ideal for the map. The orientation isn't strictly right but with the lack of any objects plenty of room to build my own town etc.

NS-IceFire
14-01-2007, 15:51
Very interesting Kat.

You may still want to give us either VIII or IX and leave it at that. There is virtually no performance difference. But I do find there are far more Italy skins for the VIII to be used than with the IX which seems to get its focus in Europe. That and we rarely ever have the VIII in the planeset...its largely ignored. But performance is virtually identical with the IX turning ever so slightly better.

EDIT: Regarding the Italy map...I was under the impression it was confirmed for 4.08. I can't check because the SimHQ forums are down but there's been a perpetual thread about it there.

Kat
14-01-2007, 16:20
Ok, having learnt how to move things around within the mis file I think I may work on some concepts for the monastory. I can easilly move it to a better map and re-jig it.

Kat
14-01-2007, 19:07
VIII on it's own ( assuming it has a bomb option ) is fine :)

How does :-

Allies
Low level option - mainly the town.
Spitfire VIII
Spitfire VC
Hurricane IIb and IIC (IIb as the IIC incorrectly is modelled bombless)
Mosquito

Level bombing option - intended to be the Monastory.
P51 (Escort configuration only)
P38 (Escort configuration only)
B25
B17

Axis
109 G6
MC 205
190 A-6 (limited to GA only - i.e. default plus any gunpod options)
110 G2
Ju 87D
Ju 88

Firelok
14-01-2007, 19:13
KaikinGol map isn't very Italian-y (can I say tht?)
as I suggested try this area of the Kuban map...
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Kuban.jpg
detail of N10 area...
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/N10.jpg

Kat
14-01-2007, 19:27
I had a look at Kuban but was ideally looking for a riverside site. I'll be honest I thought it was more arid than it is.

That spot you saw looks pretty good.

I've also found the Cassino website and much to my amazement It's 1) a LOT smaller than I thought and 2) a low more uniform. I'm used to monastory's being spread out and having a variety of architecture. Cassino doesn't, it's all built up to a uniform height. I can make a close replica purely out of the buildings at the bottom of my rather nice.. but for cassino useless.. effort :D.

Zorin
14-01-2007, 19:27
You won't get away without a G2 Kat. The G6 is rather useless against any fighter or twin engine fighter/interceptor.

Kat
14-01-2007, 19:42
You won't get away without a G2 Kat. The G6 is rather useless against any fighter or twin engine fighter/interceptor.
Why do you say that? I mean it's a later model, and other than a very few G4's the only model the Germans used in theatre at that time?

Algorex
14-01-2007, 19:43
You won't get away without a G2 Kat. The G6 is rather useless against any fighter or twin engine fighter/interceptor.

Please do try, as the G6 was de facto fighter in italy at the time, even the FW-190s were jabo variants, assigned to ground pounding missions.

And the G6 is not useless, in fact i rather enjoyed flying one on tunis the other night.

Edit: Kat zorin is refering to the fact that G2 has noticable better performance in climb and turn over the G6.

Zorin
14-01-2007, 22:07
Please do try, as the G6 was de facto fighter in italy at the time, even the FW-190s were jabo variants, assigned to ground pounding missions.

And the G6 is not useless, in fact i rather enjoyed flying one on tunis the other night.

Edit: Kat zorin is refering to the fact that G2 has noticable better performance in climb and turn over the G6.

May I remind you of the performance of the VIII on Sicily? The G6 is totally lost against it. And most planes, except the medium bombers, are faster as well.

Kat
15-01-2007, 00:39
Talking with Chat tonight (and Zorin ) I think I'll drop a few ( 20 max ) G-2's in as they had a few G-4's which aren't in game but according to Zorin are essentially Minor changed G-2's.

Bomber wise I think I'll stick with B25's as they should do enough damage if you look at the revised pictures you'll see what I've come up for the monastory site.

Kat
15-01-2007, 15:22
I've been working with this a bit more and looking at flight times.

This is what I have so far ( based on fighters doing 450kph/bombers 300) :-

http://www.bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mft.jpg

Q9 is Airstart B25's with P51/38's
O8 I'm worried about being too close so may just have to be an allied emergancy base.
R6 is fighters coming up to defend the allied forces
O13 is bombers
K11/Gelendzhik is fighters.

I could make the allied forces at O8 rather than O9 - just trying to balance everything.

I've not put the targets in for the axis to bomb - not decided whether O8 or O9 is best option.

Kat
15-01-2007, 17:25
I also only read your initial post in detail and found that you want to place Axis troops in Cassino and thus justify it's destruction. But in real life this was a true tragedy in more than one aspect and I don't like to see it justified. If folks feel they have to bomb it, don't give them a reward. Place axis troops near the monastery, but not inside. At least at a game server, I want to be one of the good guys no matter which side I am on. I know I am somewhat sensitive in that regard. ;)
Fair point, As it stands currently it has a small group of non-combat vehicles in a courtyard ( which may well be prototypical as I know there where wounded soldiers in the Cassino ) and some destruction check vehicles. The Latter are as per Chat's map to check for damage to the structure. I don't mind removing the latter.

Most targets are scattered mixed targets on the edge/top of the rock that has the Cassino on ( pretty much correct I believe ) and another bunch in the village.

Allied will be a mixed build up of forces.

Firelok
15-01-2007, 17:52
In general I agree with JtD about flying times,We kind of have a 4x4 map size for the action area, although I myself am a little flexible on this. Focussing all the action in a tight area makes for exciting maps even when the server has fewer players on it.

Kat
15-01-2007, 18:21
In general I agree with JtD about flying times,We kind of have a 4x4 map size for the action area, although I myself am a little flexible on this. Focussing all the action in a tight area makes for exciting maps even when the server has fewer players on it.
So Allied targets in O8 looks good, question is allied airbase there too or in S6? (or even a temp base somwhere)

Firelok
16-04-2007, 13:35
The limited flying number of 109G2s is causing problems here because some of the 109G2's explode on spawn-in. I intend to change this for the more practical option of spawning them from the main Blue airfield and rationalise things a bit.

Sonko
07-07-2007, 01:32
There seems to be sth wrong with the planeset in the .ini file.
When on blue side I type the planes command there comes a message like "12 of 12 SpitfireVIII left". No other restrictions are mentioned although the use of the 190A-5 without bombs gives warningpoints, this is mentioned in the brief only.

The other day somebody mentioned putting in some secret red objects into that monastry to prevent it from getting destroyed.

Firelok
07-07-2007, 03:47
[PlanesArmy1]
HurricaneMkIIb=default
HurricaneMkIIc
MosquitoFBMkVI
SeafireMkIII=default
SpitfireMkVIIICLP
SpitfireMkIXc=default
[PlanesArmy2]
Bf-109G-6_Late=U3-MK108;R5-MK108;R6-MG151-20;U3R6-MG151-20;R3R6-MG151-20
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-5165ATA=default;u22tank
Ju-87D-5
MC-205_III
Bf-109G-2=20;R6-MG151-20

Monte Cassino's.ini file.

Analysis...
hurri 2 b (must take bombs.)
hurri 2 c (default)
Mossie (any loads)
Seafire and Spit iXc must take loads (i.e. NOT default)
109G6 Late (no cannons or pods)
FW190A6 (anything)
Fw-190A-5165ATA (default/droptant banned) all else is available.
Bf-109G-2=20;R6-MG151-20(no gunpods for G2)
There are only neutral targets in the Monastery, available for simple folks;)

MonteCassino is a little strange in terms of loads, but the map-maker was determined to make certain planes perform the fighter-bomber role that fitted with the RAF Tactical strikes against the Monte Cassino target.

Yellow 2
07-07-2007, 09:46
I saw this map for the first time a couple of nights ago and I must admit that the thought crossed my mind that I should take the Spit with bombs then just dump them shortly after take off so that I could fly as a pure fighter.

To try to force those who don't want to into following a script is never going to work. They will either leave, as I did, or just do as I described and dump the mandatory ordnance as soon as possible.

Firelok
07-07-2007, 10:19
Plane kills
RED
45
BLUE
24

This was from the last time MonteCassino was played 8.00pm to 9.00pm on a full server.


SeafireMkIII=default
SpitfireMkVIIICLP
SpitfireMkIXc=default
In terms of Spitfires this is a tour de force bombs or no bombs, frankly I think most Spit pilots probably dumped and fought but regardless a bit of a nightmare for blues this one even with access to the 109G2 and FW190A6.

I'll happily entertain ideas about how to balance things more on this one.

MajorDamage
07-07-2007, 11:18
How about restricting the spits to the Seafire and a SpitMkVbClp (or possibly Vc). Maybe add the P39D or N.

Lose all the default restrictions - they're just confusing even to ppl who know about SC restrictions.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 11:41
How about restricting the spits to the Seafire and a SpitMkVbClp (or possibly Vc). Maybe add the P39D or N.

Lose all the default restrictions - they're just confusing even to ppl who know about SC restrictions.

or army cooperation mustang I and USAAF A-36A...

Boemher
07-07-2007, 12:12
Add VBCW L.F, keep/add SeaFire L (load out useful for ground attacks and performance similar to VB L.F) and limit the number of Spitfire IX or VIII to 12/16 and get rid of one of them.

Problem if we add the P51 b a.k.a Mustang I is that the P51 B is excellent at all heights and will end up being flown as fighter unless it is limited to bombs only load out.

Firelok
07-07-2007, 13:28
Ok thanks for the input guys, we will try it out with this planeset below and see how things run.
Keep us updated if you happen to fly it please.


RED
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkIIc
MosquitoFBMkVI
SeafireMkIII
SpitfireMkVbLFCLP
P-39N1
MC-205_I
BLUE
Bf-109G-6_Late=U3-MK108;R5-MK108;R6-MG151-20;U3R6-MG151-20;R3R6-MG151-20
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Ju-87D-5
MC-205_III
Bf-109G-2

Algorex
07-07-2007, 14:52
Just to make sure the seafire is the better performing L version, right?

Algorex
31-07-2007, 18:16
Just played this,

Now that the the merlin 66 spits are gone we could also lose the bf 109G-2 and maybe the FW 190A-6, just to even the situation out a bit.

Sonko
02-08-2007, 23:06
This would include to allow the 'default' loadout for the FW190A5, so the 190 stays present as a fighter too?

Firelok
03-08-2007, 10:30
This would include to allow the 'default' loadout for the FW190A5, so the 190 stays present as a fighter too?

Only restrictions now are no 108s etc on the 109G6.