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Kat
01-02-2007, 15:25
Just been playing this map and to say it was not fun is an understatment...

Main problem being for some reason the 108 gunpods are allowed... against IL2's and Pe2's... Normal practice is that such things are limited, any reason they are allowed on this map? If not please can we have them limited like on most maps.

Zorin
01-02-2007, 15:39
Because it is Hungary 1945. You don't have to bear with them on any map till VERY late 1944, which is a-historical, but the only way to not have an argument every time a red fighter gets shot down by a blue MK108 bomber hunter.

Kat
01-02-2007, 15:46
Because it is Hungary 1945. You don't have to bear with them on any map till VERY late 1944, which is a-historical, but the only way to not have an argument every time a red fighter gets shot down by a blue MK108 bomber hunter.
Oh I know it's 1945 but they where used for bomber killing where they not?

i.e. intercepting B29's, B17's, Lancasters et'al - Given they hamper the handling of the aircraft where they used in an environment where dogfights where likely?

Not just that but it's a balance thing, technically G2's shouldn't really be on Cassino - but they are there for balance... 108's on this map caused a big inbalance which, today, saw red's outnumbered at one point 4v8 (which was I'm certain a DIRECT result of people not wanted to be on the recieving end of 2-3 30mm cannon.. it is NO fun for a glancing blow to knock your wingtip off and send you into the dirt ).

Zorin
01-02-2007, 15:51
- "Kanonenboote" (MK108 or MG151 armed fighters) had always a fair chance to get involved in dogfights with escort fighters.
- Is the Pe2 no bomber?
- the G2 is a substitute for the G4 which was present and differed to the G2 only in the use of different wheels/tires and radio equipment
- btw, the late war 109s present on Hungary have the 30mm nose cannon as standard armament, so there is no way to get around being shot by a 30mm here

Kat
01-02-2007, 15:58
- "Kanonenboote" (MK108 or MG151 armed fighters) had always a fair chance to get involved in dogfights with escort fighters. True but their job was bomber killing, was a compromise, if your going on a normal CAP I'm sure the 108's would get left behind.


- Is the Pe2 no bomber?
It's a LIGHT bomber, hardly in the class the 108 was intended to combat.


- the G2 is a substitute for the G4 which was present and differed to the G2 only in the use of different wheels/tires and radio equipment
There Was one SMALL unit of them, chances of meeting a G4 over Cassino was negligble at best.


- btw, the late war 109s present on Hungary have the 30mm nose cannon as standard armament, so there is no way to get around being shot by a 30mm here
1 30mm, is 1/3 the firepower of 3 30mm... I can cope with a single nose cannon, 1/3 the chance but 3 - spread out - guns gives a very good chance of catching a wing... and all you need is 1-2 hits and the wing tip comes off and down she go's.

Zorin.. fact - this map is unbalanced.. at the time of writing it's 3/6 ( in favour of blues ), was 4/8 when I left, was 5/7 in between...

Zorin
01-02-2007, 16:03
Every time I played this map we never had issues because of unbalanced teams.

NS-IceFire
01-02-2007, 16:41
Kat...please be aware that the G-14 in game is a Hungarian build G-14. Not a German one. The German one had options for MG151/20 but the Hungarian models all had MK108s from the factory. This map uses a largely historical plane setup as I researched the available aircraft...a few are extra but thats the setup.

So far I haven't seen any serious problems with balance. Blues targets are exposed to Red bombers and are somewhat hard to defend against given that Red has less distance to travel (conversely Pe-2 dive bombers should gain altitude prior to attacking so the balance is maintained).

As for winning/loosing balance...thats something to investigate. The tank targets may be the biggest problem as they are fairly easy to hit with a AB500 and a good ground attack pilot like Ovod could sweep that target up quicker and thus lead to a win. The Red targets require more area attacks from Pe-2s and some IL-2s for pinpoint attacks. The targets themselves may be the problem.

I don't think the MK108 is a problem and given that the scenario and planeset by default dictates their presence I see it hard to remove them. Red fighters are capable and potent on this map (La-5FNs and Yak-9Us) too.

Kat
01-02-2007, 17:14
I don't think the MK108 is a problem and given that the scenario and planeset by default dictates their presence I see it hard to remove them. Red fighters are capable and potent on this map (La-5FNs and Yak-9Us) too.

I think it's a problem compounded when you have small numbers, we had 4v6 in favour of blue which never got balanced and got worse as the map developed ( 4v8 at one point ) but feel when you have less than 10 and it's uneven it does unbalance the map. 4v5 gives a 109 the chance to maraude deep in allied territory with it's 3 108's and blow IL2' and Pe2's to pieces. Obviously I could have picked up a fighter and intercepted the 109's BUT someone has to ground pound to try to finish the map :P

I didn't really get as far as looking at the actual balance of winning/losing ability... was getting shot down by 108's too much.. but wasn't looking at it and thinking "uhoh this is going to be hard" - the armour near the artillery battery MAY be a problem but from a quick look didn't look problematic as from what I could see it was mainly smaller tanks.

IL2 is definatly the prime attackers, Pe2 is hampered by cloud cover. I was attacking the artillery and it's VERY hard to pick up the target from 2000m - level bombing is essentially impossibly and divebombing tricky - best way is to come in low and bomb in the same manner as a IL2.

Flak MAY be a touch heavy ( I got shot down by it 3 times and the Pe2 I landed looked like a colander) but a couple of well places bombs can probably deal with it if you where aware of it.

As I say a single 108 is rather different prospect to 3x108.

In fact I quite liked the look of the map, it's rather nice :) - planeset for the most part is fun, targets looked good overall. With a slightly better chance of reaching the target and PERHAPS less cloud cover I think I'd enjoy it a lot :D

Algorex
01-02-2007, 17:39
Kat get some la-5FNs and P-39Qs around you.

Gordano
01-02-2007, 17:41
I think it's a problem compounded when you have small numbers, we had 4v6 in favour of blue which never got balanced and got worse as the map developed ( 4v8 at one point )

I have to say if this was the case, it is not the choice of planeset on the map which is causing the unbalance. But more the fact that people are ignoring the server rules and all jumping on to one side.

Any map will end up being unbalanced in a situation like this.

NS-IceFire
01-02-2007, 17:53
I honestly don't think anyone in their right mind is going to settle for this loadout in most situations. Maybe because of the small numbers it worked that one time (hard to balance maps on one time occurances) but a 109 with that armament option is easy pickings for a fighter...and I mean easy. If you had a fighter with you...that 109 guy would be toast. I tend to chuckle when I see that loadout because its pure anti-bomber (and you found out how pure it is apparently) and it makes the 109 behave like a lead weight.

Ultimately Gordano is right...the problem sounds more specific to the numbers of players on each team rather than the map itself. Any map will go astray with a 2:1 balance.

Well we could restrict the 3xMK108 option to try and fix that. But I don't think its needed...not at this point. If everyone is in favour of that then its no skin off my nose.

Kat
01-02-2007, 18:21
Ultimately Gordano is right...the problem sounds more specific to the numbers of players on each team rather than the map itself. Any map will go astray with a 2:1 balance.

Well we could restrict the 3xMK108 option to try and fix that. But I don't think its needed...not at this point. If everyone is in favour of that then its no skin off my nose.

Maybe just keep an eye on it, it's certainly no fun when it happens BUT if it's definatly an anomoly of the unbalanced numbers no problem.. If it shows to be an issue in smaller engagements though ( 5v6, 4v5, 3v4 type ) it might be worth limiting.

NS-IceFire
01-02-2007, 20:31
Still...all it takes is a P-39Q-10 or a Yak-9U both of which are either near equal or will out perform a G-14 on a good day and with the gunpods the 109s day becomes very bad and just one of these fighters is enough to sway the balance.

What you needed was a teammate :)