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Oscar
08-02-2007, 12:35
As I am in the final phases of my first crude mapmaking attempt, I am open to suggestions and constructive critisism. :)

Here's the map:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w66/OscarYankee/Napoli-Raid.jpg

Red objectives:
Destroy trains, ships and armour in and around Naples harbour, as well as static aircrafts at "Flughafen Napoli".
Protect advancing forces south of Anzio as well as the 105mm Battery positioned there.

Blue objectives:
Protect retreating forces in Naples.
Destroy advancing enemy forces south of Anzio and the 105mm Battery. Destroy the 2 bridges north of the enemy forces to slow their advance on Naples.

A few recon shots:

Naples trainyard:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w66/OscarYankee/Trains.jpg

Naples harbour:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w66/OscarYankee/Harbour.jpg

Allied advance:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w66/OscarYankee/Advancing.jpg

Loadout Blue:
* Bf 109 G6
* Bf 109 G6-late
* Bf 110 G2
* Fw 190 A5
* Fw 190 A5 1.65 ATA
* Fw 190 A6
* Ju 87 D-5
* MC.205 V Ser. III

Loadout Red:
(bomber base Sardinia)
* B25J
* A20G
* P38J
* P40M
* P47D-10
* P51C-NT
Time to target in an A20 climbing to 3000 meters is approx 11 minutes....

(Fighter base)
* P40M
* P51B-NA
* P51C-NT


Now, there should be plenty of targets, some of them set to 100%, some to 75%.
I am not really sure about the aircraft setup. I have used aircraft from the time of the attack on Naples (autumn 1943). Any suggestions?
Regarding AAA: How much?
I have 4x 37mm and 2x 88mm at blue base.
1 AA-ship, 5 torpedo boats in the harbour as well as 4x 88mm and 5x 20mm.
2x 37mm and 1x 75mm at the 105-Battery/advancing allied forces.
4x 25mm at each allied base.
Haven't been able to make the AAA's (20, 25, 37, 75 and 88mm) open fire on me on test-flights, so I added a Destroyer and a torpedo boat in the vicinity of the blue objective, and added 2 german M-boats near the Blue base. Maybe someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong (Figured it out... just call me noob....)

Tell me what you think...

*EDIT: Test map will have allied bomber/escort airstart close to Stromboli.

/OscarYankee

74topper
08-02-2007, 14:25
I think..... LETS GET IT ON :D
The only way to find out if it works is by trying.

T}{OR
08-02-2007, 15:17
You have my vote also. :)

MajorDamage
08-02-2007, 15:55
Looks good. My only concern is that the red bombers have a hell of a long flight time. Might be worth using the base at Stromboli perhaps?

Kat
08-02-2007, 17:30
Looks good. My only concern is that the red bombers have a hell of a long flight time. Might be worth using the base at Stromboli perhaps?
Nice plan, respectable planeset, interesting targets. However :-

1) P51-D's shouldn't be in it ( they are 1944)
2) Agree on the IXc - should be ok without it.
3) B25?

My anzio planeset ( which is AFTER yours ) is :-
Bf-109G-6
Bf-109G-6_Late
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Ju-87D-5
Fw-190A-6
Ju-88A-4


A-20G
P-40M
P-47D-22
P-51C-NT
B-25J-1NA

Might be worth using?

I have to agree with MD, I'm tempted by Sardinia for one of my ideas but the flight time is really far to high.

I'm also concerned your flak is too high. Typical guidance for a target is 2-3 20mm and maybe 1 88mm. Flak should be a nuisance but not shoot down many aircraft and be fairly easy to blow up (6 AA ships is probably too high imo).

You seem to have two home bases overlapping which I suspect will cause potential problems with two players sharing the same spawn point.

Other than that looking very promissing.

Oscar
08-02-2007, 17:34
I hear what you are saying Major, however Stromboli is a seaplane-base. The enroute-time may be a bit on the long side, but I seem to remember other existing maps with just about the same flight time. I am considering airstarts for allied bombers, but I would like to test the configuration as is first, before tweaking and fine-tuning...

/Oscar

Oscar
08-02-2007, 17:43
Thanks for your evaluation Kat. I'm pretty sure the P-51D is not in my planeset. Haven't you misread the P47D? I want to keep the A-20C, as it is a level-bomber, and I would like to emphasize level bombing on this map. B25J, which is the flyable version that we have available, is a '44 aircraft, and hence not usable. Will remove the spit.

With rgds to flak. I've done a few testflights over the target area, and although my plane was damaged and pilot wounded, I successfully made it back to base. This despite the fact that the AAA was not distracted by other aircrafts. I think I will keep the current AAA-setting for testing at least...

/Oscar

Kat
08-02-2007, 17:54
B25J, which is the flyable version that we have available, is a '44 aircraft, and hence not usable. Will remove the spit.
Putting the B25 in won't unbalance the map, it's commonly used as it's only one of two options for level bombing and it's performance isn't mindblowing. For example Channel 43 uses it, Anzio uses it ( which being Jan 44 needs a 43 planeset ), and several other maps use it, many of which I am sure aren't 1944/5.

Equally the A20C is used by me on Dunkirk despite being a 1941 model ( also the Ju88 used isn't 1940 ).

Generally in map making we have to compromise and that is one I personally as a bomber pilot would like to see made and wouldn't unbalance the map.

I may have misread on the P51.

NS-IceFire
08-02-2007, 22:17
Looks good Oscar. Looks like quite a bit of fun. Not sure if this is a historical consideration but I don't see any Italian aircraft. The MC.205 would be nice. I am a bit concerned about flight time but I think that will be fine...its not completely adverse and there are two bases to choose from. I think as long as the action is centered in a couple of map grids then things will be fine.

Happy
09-02-2007, 04:57
looking at it from the pictures I think the flight time on one base is not that bad for the heavies. got lots of room to get to altitude and even line up from different directions. A20C and B25's should be fun.

my guess is that with one target this should make for some interesting scenario's and an organised strike with escort could make life for the germans real bad.

G6 makes me scratch my head a bit, yet will have to see how that works out then again lets go with it, making such a map without a doubt has given much thought to the planeset.

just as a thought, are there some shipping patrolling just outside the harbour?
"harbour patrol"

well can't wait to try this one. Is it going to see life in the UK3 mapcycle?

Oscar
09-02-2007, 06:59
Not sure if this is a historical consideration but I don't see any Italian aircraft. The MC.205 would be nice.

Well, I'm trying to keep it as close to how it was, as possible. Naples was captured by allied forces on October 1st 1943, and the Italian forces (officially) surrendered on September 8th. If any Italian aircrafts were to feature on this map, it would be on the allied side I would guess. Worth considering anyhow...

Happy: No shipping outside the harbour, but one AA-ship inside along with 5 torpedo boats. Could add some patrolling ships outside the harbour. Maybe moving if possible?


/Oscar

Kat
09-02-2007, 09:23
Well, I'm trying to keep it as close to how it was, as possible. Naples was captured by allied forces on October 1st 1943, and the Italian forces (officially) surrendered on September 8th. If any Italian aircrafts were to feature on this map, it would be on the allied side I would guess. Worth considering anyhow...

Italian aircraft continued to be part of the luftwaffe.

As of 31th May 1944 there where still a good number of 205's and G50's in service for the luftwaffe.

As the surrender was only a month earlier not sure if the Italian airforce had swapped sides yet ( so not sure if any would be flying for the allies ) but there should be some flying for the Luftwaffe (in Italian Markings - the allied Italian aicraft use different markings).

NS-IceFire
11-02-2007, 14:47
Wasn't it JG77 that operated MC.205's for quite a while?

Happy
12-02-2007, 08:45
aha, just read it will be up tonight,

can't wait to fire up those engines on my B25.

anyone for a good high level bombing raid tonight on this mission.

we'll need fighter cover to, to head out in front and keep those pesky fighters of our backs.

we can use this as practise for the mega missions.. :p

Kat
12-02-2007, 09:28
Wasn't it JG77 that operated MC.205's for quite a while?

Gr. Buscaglia SM.79bis 28 21
I Gr.C. MC.205 18 7
G.55 22 7
II Gr.C. Bf 109G-6 23 0
G.55 8 3
Luftwaffe
Stab/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 4 3
I/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 21 10
II/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 52 39

Don't believe so, as you can see from above ( snapshot from just after Cassino ) JG77 was in G-6's but there was Italian units flying for the germans flying 205's and G55.

T}{OR
12-02-2007, 09:31
aha, just read it will be up tonight,

can't wait to fire up those engines on my B25.

anyone for a good high level bombing raid tonight on this mission.

we'll need fighter cover to, to head out in front and keep those pesky fighters of our backs.

we can use this as practise for the mega missions.. :p

When it will be tested - I'd like to do some level bombing there. :D

Algorex
12-02-2007, 09:37
Gr. Buscaglia SM.79bis 28 21
I Gr.C. MC.205 18 7
G.55 22 7
II Gr.C. Bf 109G-6 23 0
G.55 8 3
Luftwaffe
Stab/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 4 3
I/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 21 10
II/JG 77 Bf 109G-6 52 39

Don't believe so, as you can see from above ( snapshot from just after Cassino ) JG77 was in G-6's but there was Italian units flying for the germans flying 205's and G55.

And your time frame would be? II/JG77 operated mc.205s for about 3 months at the end of 1943 and re-equipt with bf109Gs in january 44. As Naples was captured in 1 October 43, germans could have very well flown mc.205s at the time of this mission.

Chatanooga
12-02-2007, 10:34
Hi Oscar,

The recon shots look great, however I think I few areas do need looking at.



1 AA-ship, 5 torpedo boats in the harbour as well as 4x 88mm and 5x 20mm.

This is too much AA for one target, for some reason AA is alot more vicous online compared to offline testing. Try somthing more like

1 x AA ship (set to worst skill level), 2 x Torp boats (set to worst skill level), 2 x 88mm, 1 or 2 x 20mm and maybe that is to much as well. Im sure someone with more experience can give you a better Idea.

However my main concearn is the flight time for the bombers to reach targets, for an online dogfight map you need to keep distances to a reasonable level, more like 2.5-3.5 squares. If this were a coop map I dont think the flight time would be a problem.

You have to remember the audience you are creating for, an online dogfight server, people expect to be able to jump in and go, not saying bombers have to be on top of targets but compromises have to be made to make the map enjoyable to a wide range of tastes :)

Kat
12-02-2007, 14:14
And your time frame would be? II/JG77 operated mc.205s for about 3 months at the end of 1943 and re-equipt with bf109Gs in january 44. As Naples was captured in 1 October 43, germans could have very well flown mc.205s at the time of this mission.
Early 1944, my mistake, assumed they would have been using 109's for some time.. either way we both agree that 205's where used on the German side.

Oscar
12-02-2007, 14:24
Hi guys!

I already have an updated map ready for upload, however I will wait untill after tonights testing in case other tweaks need to be made. On the uploaded map, most of the AAA won't fire, as I made a noob mistake in placing objects. This is corrected in the next upload. So current AA around the harbour is 1x AA-ship and 5 torpedoboats. 2 M-boats are defending the germann airbase. No other blue AA firing. At the red targets 1 destroyer and 1 torpedoboat delivers AA-fire. M-boats, destroyer and torpedoboat will be removed on the update and a reasonable amount of artillery-objects placed instead.
For testing flight time, an allied bomber/escort airstart has already been added next to Stromboli.
Any other updates will be added to my original post, so please look for additions there.
I sincerely hope to be on tonight for testing. See you then guys...

/Oscar

Happy
12-02-2007, 16:06
Hi Oscar,


This is too much AA for one target, for some reason AA is alot more vicous online compared to offline testing. Try somthing more like

1 x AA ship (set to worst skill level), 2 x Torp boats (set to worst skill level), 2 x 88mm, 1 or 2 x 20mm and maybe that is to much as well. Im sure someone with more experience can give you a better Idea.

I've found out talking to other people that when making a map most people tend to go overkill on the AA. it's finding that balance. Better off with less AA then strengthen it where it is needed. (testing feedback)

You want tracers reaching out to planes yet not with maddox precision gunnery, nothing can ruin ones game than getting hit over a target area the minute one enters it.

Firelok gave me a good tip with ships rate of fire and also look at older ships which have limited AA emplacements and can easily be set to advanced level
so is there a russian battleship destroyer kind of ship that makes nice black puff's of AA yet isn't overly bristling with guns.

to much AA will and can drop framerates when they all open up. unless you got a high end system that can take the punishment.




However my main concearn is the flight time for the bombers to reach targets, for an online dogfight map you need to keep distances to a reasonable level, more like 2.5-3.5 squares. If this were a coop map I dont think the flight time would be a problem..

I have my reservation on this viewpoint, since I think it will give a formation of bombers a good chance to line up and climb to altitude with much turning. Besides comparing it with the briefings from the mega missions it's not that much different in flight times.

And in a way it seems to me that oscar has created the opportunity for those eager to fight to take off from the east airbase which is closer, so I would say it's a good compromise.



You have to remember the audience you are creating for, an online dogfight server, people expect to be able to jump in and go, not saying bombers have to be on top of targets but compromises have to be made to make the map enjoyable to a wide range of tastes :)

We will just have to fly it I reckon and then we can form a better picture and without a doubt with constructive feedback this only can get better. :D

lewilewi
13-02-2007, 23:13
Any chance of recon photo's for red and blue targets please .?

SMURFY1967
13-02-2007, 23:37
I think it needs more blue targets my friend,red have a target rich area in the harbour,i think blues need a second base,88 & 111`s and more targets.If you fly blue to even it up,it`s not anywhere near as interesting as flying red.Can the time limit be set to less than 2 hrs as well,most of the other maps are 75 mins?.

Oscar
14-02-2007, 08:04
Hi guys!

When I finish updating the beta map v.2., I will upload some new recon shots.
I will propably add a another german base, but i think it will be an airstart, as all other bases will be too far from the target area. I will do some experimenting with that.
I like the challenge of the AAA, however playing online it severely reduces framerate, so I'm afraid I have no choice but to reduce the amount of AAA. Will keep the AA-ship and most of the torpedo-boats in the harbour, but will set their skill to "rookie" and their ROF to "5", and see what difference that makes...
The mission-time will be corrected, when the map is made "FBD-ready", but I will have to study the FBD-manual first. As I said on the server last night: If anyone have experience with creating FBD-files, please let me know. Will save me some time I think...

/Oscar

Happy
14-02-2007, 08:49
Oscar would it be possible to beef up that airfield in way of targets, maybe even put some dummy planes in for no airforce wants it's aircraft destroyed on the ground so they did go to all length to hide them..

must say it's nicely done and thx for all the hard work.

Chatanooga
14-02-2007, 10:53
I didnt realise that this map was destined for UK3 my comments about flight times were from a UKD2 point of view, different audience to UKD3 :)

T}{OR
14-02-2007, 12:24
The mission-time will be corrected, when the map is made "FBD-ready", but I will have to study the FBD-manual first. As I said on the server last night: If anyone have experience with creating FBD-files, please let me know. Will save me some time I think...

/Oscar

http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=986

- Will this help?

Happy
14-02-2007, 12:42
I didnt realise that this map was destined for UK3 my comments about flight times were from a UKD2 point of view, different audience to UKD3 :)

wouldn't be to much of difference i would think. Even with externals on this would be a good map i reckon even on UK2.

Can't really believe there is so much difference in UK2 and UK3 except the external factor..

we are one big happy family :D :mp5:

Kat
14-02-2007, 12:58
I like the challenge of the AAA, however playing online it severely reduces framerate, so I'm afraid I have no choice but to reduce the amount of AAA. Will keep the AA-ship and most of the torpedo-boats in the harbour, but will set their skill to "rookie" and their ROF to "5", and see what difference that makes...

Problem is you have to remember your catering for not just YOU.. Your catering for an audience and as I've learnt with my maps you have to work around a server with a wide player base and certain preconceptions and balance. If the map see's ground attack pilots getting shot down or heavilly damaged regularly on the smaller numbers of players ( 4v4 or there abouts ) where you will get unco-ordinated raids then the AA is too heavy plus the map may well become unpopular.

I would remove/sleep Most of the Torpedo boats and replace them with a sensible number of 20mm and 88mm ( say 2x88, 3x20mm ).

Your map is very similar to Libau which has a http://www.gaming4grownups.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=10760 huge thread on it here. Might be interesting reading for you. You'll note that although the targets are similar to yours ALL the flak that is generated is land based. That said no harm in a bit of sea based, just too much can be highly annoying especially when the server isn't full.

Libau is one of my favourite maps btw so I'm sure I'll enjoy this one too just needs tweaking but as you'll see from the Libau thread often it's hard work ( I've had similar threads on some of my maps too ) to get the balance right. Looks awsome though :).

Kat
14-02-2007, 13:02
wouldn't be to much of difference i would think. Even with externals on this would be a good map i reckon even on UK2.

Can't really believe there is so much difference in UK2 and UK3 except the external factor..

we are one big happy family :D :mp5:

I agree, and the other issue with flight times is targets, if you have say 12 ships that need sinking to win the map and often only have say 4 bombers to do it (assuming using torpedo's or big bombs ) and each is 11 mins away, it means basically 25 mins (to include respawn time, turning back from target, lining up to land etc. ) for 4 ships, or 1h15m just to take out the shipping. Assuming all are successfull.

Now I don't know the target numbers but just highlighting something that needs considering, especially as UKD3 is smaller ( what is the max? ) than UKD2 in terms of a full server.

Oscar
14-02-2007, 13:03
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/viewtopic.php?t=986

- Will this help?

Yes, I think it will be a big help. Thanks m8...

I have made a new thread with the updated map here: http://www.gaming4grownups.com/commscentre/showthread.php?p=136229#post136229 (Lots of puctures too!!! :cool: )

/Oscar

Oscar
14-02-2007, 13:07
I agree, and the other issue with flight times is targets, if you have say 12 ships that need sinking to win the map and often only have say 4 bombers to do it (assuming using torpedo's or big bombs ) and each is 11 mins away, it means basically 25 mins (to include respawn time, turning back from target, lining up to land etc. ) for 4 ships, or 1h15m just to take out the shipping. Assuming all are successfull.

Fortunately it looks like I can set the number of targets to be destroyed for mission succes via FBD. A good guess might be about half the targets on either side?

/Oscar

lewilewi
14-02-2007, 13:09
thx Oscar

Bladebender
25-06-2007, 13:23
Bump.

Oscar, the map is good.

However, the blue team air-start spawning point over Milano is non-functional.

Aircraft spawn 20 meters above the ground, stationary with engines off.

We have told various admins about this problem, but nothing has been done about it.

Can you please give it some attention?

Thanks.