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MajorDamage
22-02-2007, 15:30
June 43, in the face of increased pressure by RAF Coastal Command patrols Admiral Doenitz orders his U Boats transiting the Bay of Biscay to travel in small groups on the surface to provide mutual AA support. The Royal Navy, meanwhile, adopts the new tactic of forming hunter-killer escort groups.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Biscay4305map.jpg

Red objectives:

Sink 3 groups of 3 U-boats in C11, D11, E12
Sink surface group of 2 M-Boats and 4 S-boats in E11

Blue objectives:

Sink Hunter Killer group of 1 CVE and 6 DDs in C12
Sink 4 DDs in B12

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/BlueU-Boats.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/BlueCoastalForces.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/RedHunterKillerGroup.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/RedDestroyers.jpg

Planeset:

RED
Beaufighter (no torp)
Mosquito
B-24
H8K1 (as the Short Sunderland) (no torps)
PBN-1

BLUE
Me110 (usual bomb-only loadout)
Ju88
He 111 H6
Fw200

Yes I know, shock horror, no single-engine fighters. There should really be only long range twin-engined fighters. If people hate the idea then we could at a stretch add say Mustangs, 109 G6's and 190's (A4? A5?).

I've been looking for an excuse to use these skins for ages (vpmedia - at Flying Legends):

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Liberator.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Sunderland.jpg

Bit of an unusual one I know - what do you think guys?

Kat
22-02-2007, 15:56
Bah you beat me to using the Fw200 :P

Got a few maps brewing one of which is similar to this - could be fun :)

Algorex
22-02-2007, 16:00
Sounds promising enough i'm willing to at least try it. I see you recycled the old channel dash idea we tested eons ago :D

MrAsh
22-02-2007, 16:13
looks really good major, shame its not for UK3 though, a twins only map would be a lot of fun on there methinks :)

Chatanooga
22-02-2007, 16:21
Looks good matey, I'm all for having unusual plane sets :)

Firelok
22-02-2007, 16:34
Only Twins, works for me and makes what you are planning really stand out. Operation Moonlight was great only twins map that was on UK1 and UK2 for a bit last year. Here we have the advantage of actual daylight:D
I'd like to see the Bf110 allowed to have the underwing Air to Air mortars too, they don't get enough use.

Happy
22-02-2007, 17:03
love the liberator skin, very nice
the map looks pretty good to, how do you come up with them, great work as always

Zorin
22-02-2007, 17:10
Does look promising, but maybe you should up the amount of targets. In a good B-24 run you can take out one U-boat target and the S-Boat M-Boat target.

On the blue side, the max you'll get is three ships in one run with the Fw200.

And maybe only have one twin-engine fighter on both sides. So Mosquito or Beaufighter, not both.

Boemher
22-02-2007, 17:54
Nice one Major looks ace!

I was thinking of another map involving only twins only yesterday lol

KaiserB_uk
22-02-2007, 18:56
Very cool - I particularly like the fake Sunderland.

Kat
22-02-2007, 19:35
And maybe only have one twin-engine fighter on both sides. So Mosquito or Beaufighter, not both.
Personally I'd see the Beau as anti-shipping not a fighter. Granted can be used as one but It's main use will be rockets against shipping.

That said it doesn't do bad as a fighter so if one get's dropped would have to be the Mossie.

MajorDamage
23-02-2007, 11:32
Thankyou gents for your feedback :)

Algore, I still intend to finish the Channel Dash idea - it's just that the flying boats were out of place there and make much more sense here in the role they're designed for. I was trying to cram too many ideas into one map. Channel Dash will be better now we have the A20C to act as a Beaufort.

Ash, I don't know how well it would port to UK3 because a lot of the flavour is in the AI planes, but we could give it a go at a later date. I've got a couple of other anti-shipping sortie ideas with longer flight times that might suit UK3 better.

Zorin, yes I think you're probably right - I will increase the number of Red objectives. Perhaps stick some coastal merchants with the M-boats. Bear in mind though that it's harder than you think to sink those U-boats with the Lib. In theory you can sink one in each pass but it doesn't always work out like that (especially if you're being shot at). Also I intend to limit the numbers of the B24's to give the Sunderlands a look-in, and because Coastal Command had them in quite limited numbers.

As regards dropping the Mosquito or Beaufighter I think it would be a shame as both these planes featured strongly in this theatre at the time. If you don't mind I'd like to leave them both in for testing and we'll see how it goes - if it seems one of them is too dominant then we could certainly drop one. It does worry me slightly that Red have all the 'fun' planes and we might see uneven sides - if only we had the Ju88C fighter. I'm hoping that the Me110 jocks will love having their favourite ride feature like this though.

Zorin
23-02-2007, 16:04
Ok, but to even out the odds, you should allow the MG151 gunpod on the 110. That way all fighters have 4 cannons and 4 MGs. And blues will need them vs. the H8K and its 20mm gunners.

MajorDamage
27-02-2007, 20:06
Almost ready for testing with this, just got to get my head round the .ini file and loadout limits etc.

Just a quick Noob-Mapmaker question for you: what's a good standard AAA packiage foe red/blue bases respectively? At the moment I've got 1x40mm Bofors and 2x25mm on the red base, and 1x88mm and 2x20mm on the blue base.

Firelok
27-02-2007, 20:54
Try six light(20mm/.50cal) and two heavy(85/88mm) or Six or seven 35-40mm like BOFORS. That should cause enough trouble for any vultcher.

MajorDamage
27-02-2007, 21:32
Wow ok, thats a lot more than I thought we could get away with and not cause lag. AAA heaven :D

Kat
27-02-2007, 22:24
Wow ok, thats a lot more than I thought we could get away with and not cause lag. AAA heaven :D

normandy uses 10 or 12 bofors as anti vulching. had no lag concerns.

Firelok
28-02-2007, 19:49
Added to server for testing Biscay43.mis

Kat
28-02-2007, 22:49
Looks AWSOME, had great fun.. sadly didn't last long enough :(

Guess there wasn't enough to kill.

For the record 3 rockets ( and I'd guess about 500lb bombs ) will kill U-Boats. Suspect we need a few more targets.

Firelok
28-02-2007, 23:09
It rocked, a bit of tweaking in terms of bombs and targets as we discussed and Bobs yer Uncle.

MajorDamage
01-03-2007, 12:06
Thanks guys for testing last night. Obviously it going to need a lot more targets on both sides. Funny what happens when EVERYONE takes some bombs and actually goes looking for targets...

I'm also going to restrict both the Me110 and Mossie to guns only, (still allowing the Mg151 pod on the 110), so that they are used in a pure fighter role. This was I think half the problem with the targets getting done so quickly - it seems nobody feels right about taking up a twin-engined plane with a Default loadout!

BTW did anyone here get into any Me110 vs Mosquito fights? How did the matchup feel?

Kat
01-03-2007, 12:51
BTW did anyone here get into any Me110 vs Mosquito fights? How did the matchup feel?

I got into a 110/Beau fight and was fine :) - I think beaus will get a lot because when they have launched their rockets they are very effective fighters. I went out, sank a U-boat, damaged a second and shot down a Ju88 and a 110 ( 110 didn't register as AI got my pilot though ) en-route back to base.

Making the Mossie fighter only will be interesting.

Incisor
01-03-2007, 13:10
Great map, Major, I like it. Two b24's in a single joint sortie took out 8 subs/ships. I still had bombs in the belly when mission was over. Adding some targets might be a good idea. Very nice to see the b24 in this role. We encounterd a 110 but it couldn't inflict enough damage before we hit the targets.

Kat
01-03-2007, 13:17
Great map, Major, I like it. Two b24's in a single joint sortie took out 8 subs/ships. I still had bombs in the belly when mission was over. Adding some targets might be a good idea. Very nice to see the b24 in this role. We encounterd a 110 but it couldn't inflict enough damage before we hit the targets.
This might highlight a problem with the map the fact that a B24 flow properly can take out several U-boats.

B24 can kill 8, the 'sunderland' 4, the Nomad 2.

Tricky balance problem which I DO want to see solved as I love the map and planeset :D

MajorDamage
01-03-2007, 14:15
Yeah it'll probably take a few revisions to get it balanced. I'm aware the B24 is a bit overpowering - it's a matter of limiting their numbers and getting the target balance right. Having said that I think the Blues actually won it last night and it seemed to be neck and neck with the target count for most of the (brief) time.

I only got to fly 1 sortie in a B24 - I was unlucky and got hit by aaa in my first pass, ended up with black smoke pouring from the no 1 engine, had to drop my bombs and head home :(

Might also try making the U-boats' aaa a bit more beefy so the libs have a slightly harder time of it.

Kat
01-03-2007, 14:47
Yeah it'll probably take a few revisions to get it balanced. I'm aware the B24 is a bit overpowering - it's a matter of limiting their numbers and getting the target balance right. Having said that I think the Blues actually won it last night and it seemed to be neck and neck with the target count for most of the (brief) time.

I only got to fly 1 sortie in a B24 - I was unlucky and got hit by aaa in my first pass, ended up with black smoke pouring from the no 1 engine, had to drop my bombs and head home :(

Might also try making the U-boats' aaa a bit more beefy so the libs have a slightly harder time of it.

Just checked the stat page. Red won the test :)

Maybe limit the B24's to 4 total and add an extra boat to each group and add more flak, don't think my Beau got a single hit and I made 6 passes ( 4 rocket, 2 gun ) over 3 ( 2 after 3 rockets ) U-boats.

MajorDamage
05-03-2007, 17:21
Finally got round to making the revisions that were discussed after the last test:

Added more targets to both sides.
Restricted the B24 to 12 planes.
Restricted the Mosquito and Bf110 to guns only.
Tweaked the u-boats' aaa.

Also, after stumblilng across some nice fake Do24 skins for the PBN by Imme I took the liberty of adding the PBN to the Blue seaplane base. This gives the Blues a useful seaplane to play with rather than just the Ar196 (which is very pretty but utterly pants). Skins are available at Flying Legends, or the default skin with German markings looks fine.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Do24PBN.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Do24.jpg

Or if you're in a particularly weird frame of mind you can always try the Nazi Ambulance version :eek: :

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/NaziAmbulance.jpg

Incisor
05-03-2007, 21:03
There is still a Do24 flying, with some modifications (engines). Graceful lines this plane has:

http://www.pozefilm.de/do24.html

Firelok
06-03-2007, 03:19
New update is on the server:)

Sonko
06-03-2007, 18:11
I played it today and I liked it. It was only a bit difficult to cope with all the Mossies that were much faster than the 110's.

Nothing else to add here...

PS: The 110 needs a fix, it isn't listed when you type <planes but it gives you points when you use bombs and such.

MajorDamage
06-03-2007, 19:07
Thanks Sonko, glad you liked the map. Yeah a few annoying bugs in the ini file :wall: Still it felt a lot better than the first test - at least the targets weren't all destroyed within 10 minutes!

The Mosquito/110 thing is interesting because somebody else flying a mossie complained that the 110 was too good cos of it's rear gun. I hear what you're saying though. In theory it should be a classic energy vs turn fighter match up only with the turn fighter getting the added advantage of the rear gun. Next time the map is on please do me a favour and fly a mosquito to see how it feels from the other perspective.

I will go and look at the stats and do a bit of thinking...

Solnyshko
06-03-2007, 19:54
Just played this map - excellent idea & well executed. Makes for interesting gameplay - really doesnt need single engine fighters!

Odd quirk though, does the server recognise usually non-flyables as aircraft victories/defeats? I brought down a human piloted floatplane and was credited ingame but the server didnt register it.

Boemher
06-03-2007, 19:59
I was the one in the Mossie Sonko, each time I shot down a 110 I sustained damage from their rear gunner, ranging from fuel leak to pilot wounded. On one frustrating occasion I was set alight by a 110 I made him overshoot by dropping falsp and gear and had him in my sights hitting him when his rear gunner intervened and killed my radio man and wounded my pilot lol. The Mosquito is definitely faster but the 110 can out turn and out stall it and like the man said its a good match up when flown to their strengths.

If I were you id be more worried by the Beaufighter which is tough, fast and can turn!

Boemher
06-03-2007, 20:01
Just played this map - excellent idea & well executed. Makes for interesting gameplay - really doesnt need single engine fighters!

Odd quirk though, does the server recognise usually non-flyables as aircraft victories/defeats? I brought down a human piloted floatplane and was credited ingame but the server didnt register it.

It registers it but as a flyable aircraft kill - for instance it may show Wildcat destroyed instead of TBM.

Solnyshko
06-03-2007, 20:03
Ah - that explains my phantom mossie kill!

Firelok
07-03-2007, 12:24
Had a quick peek at the revised version when noone was around just now.
Technically it's faultless. An impressive first map IMO. I'm going to add it to the cycle this afternoon.:)

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 12:37
Had a quick peek at the revised version when noone was around just now.
Technically it's faultless. An impressive first map IMO. I'm going to add it to the cycle this afternoon.:)

Thanks mate, but it's definitely not technically faultless - I made all sorts of mistakes in the ini file when I made the revisions. It's not totally broken so it'll be fine being in the cycle for now, but it's certainly not working as it should. I'll get on to it sometime today and send you a mended version.

Although it's the first map I've 'published' on the server I have a folder full of dogfight maps that didn't pass my own quality control. I know the bar is set very high on UKD and I've often spent time loitering when the server's quiet just going round the static cameras to study what other mapmakers have done - I strongly recommend other newbie mapmakers do the same!

It's a relief to know that the map is not a total disaster (as I feared it might be). :)

Firelok
07-03-2007, 12:55
:eek: How dare you presume to contradict me:D after me exhausting my tiny supplies of compliments. :p

It's hard to tell from a <targets command whether it covers all required objects this is something only the creator can tell without rummaging around in FMB for a bit.
What I meant to say then is... the <targets clearly arn't pointing to the moon or your own airbase and the <planes command works.;)

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 18:09
Just sent in version 3 for testing. Here's a list of problems noted from the last test and what I've done to try and fix them:

1. Some of the targets not displaying correctly.
Re-did the target co-ordinates and got the radius tighter. I think (hope) that the problem may have been due to overlapping target groups.

2. Me110 loadouts wrong, MG151 not allowed
Been scratching my head - can't work it out. It all looks right to me. I might need a grown-up like Uncle Firelok to help me on this one. The time I have spent spawning in a 110 and sifting through eventlogs...aaarrrggg :wall:

3. B-24 Limit not working. Using the < planes command shows the correct limit of 12, but this number didn't decrease as B-24s were destroyed.
Dunno what this is about unless its connected with the Blue base issue. The main land Blue base is actually 2 separate bases very close together and I must have accidentally deleted one of them at some point. Problem was I was pasting the planeset from an old mis file that still had the 2 bases...:confused:

4. Occasional spawning problem with B-24's
If 2 B-24's spawn next to each other they may touch and explode. Not much we can do about it, lucky it doesn't seem to happen too often. Just remember if your spawning in a B24 to move out to the taxiway quickly, and maybe check the coast is clear if you're on TS.

stanford
07-03-2007, 18:11
I think I might be blind, what what is the .mis file called for this map?

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 18:19
Biscay43

Firelok
07-03-2007, 19:07
Dunno what this is about unless its connected with the Blue base issue. The main land Blue base is actually 2 separate bases very close together and I must have accidentally deleted one of them at some point. Problem was I was pasting the planeset from an old mis file that still had the 2 bases...

This doesn't matter if you think about it. A Dogfight homebase has a radius that if it covers a valid spawn point it will use this as neccessary. So as long as the radius of the one homebase covers the airfield, then Bob's your uncle.(not me)

I think the 'two bases' thing that is on Italy_DF and Desert_DF is about the spawning/takeoff of coop/single mission flight of planes, where you take a waypoint and 'lock' it along particular airstrip.

As for the damned Bf110G-2 I loathe doing loadoud restriction work on this thing... (there's just so many.) I couldnt see what the problem was myself.
Simply put the Bf110 should only be allowed default weapons and the MG151/20 gunpod option (m1?) Here is the line from the .ini


Bf-110G-2=2sc250;2ab250;2sc500;2ab500;2sd500;4sc50;2sc2504sc50;2ab2504sc50;2sc5004sc50;2ab5004sc50;2sd5004sc 50;m5;m1m3;m1m5;r4;r1r7;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab2 50;r3r7m5;r4_;r7m2sc250;r7m2ab250;r7m3;r7m2m3sc;r7m2m3ab
So if any of our Eagle eyed viewers out there can spot the MG151 gunpod, well they get Brownie points and the ability to fly the Bf110 with gunpods on Biscay43.:)

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 19:37
Aye, thanks anyway. I wonder if the naming of the loadouts is actually bugged? Next test I'm going to spawn with all the loadouts in sequence to see if all the others are restricted or not. Also I forgot to check last time whether it allows the MG151 with drop tanks which I also didn't restrict.

Sonko
08-03-2007, 21:12
I was the one in the Mossie Sonko, each time I shot down a 110 I sustained damage from their rear gunner, ranging from fuel leak to pilot wounded. On one frustrating occasion I was set alight by a 110 I made him overshoot by dropping falsp and gear and had him in my sights hitting him when his rear gunner intervened and killed my radio man and wounded my pilot lol. The Mosquito is definitely faster but the 110 can out turn and out stall it and like the man said its a good match up when flown to their strengths.

If I were you id be more worried by the Beaufighter which is tough, fast and can turn!

I agree to this in the first point, the 110's reargunner. But I disagree when you say that the 110 can outturn a Mossie. The Mosquito can't turn very good, that's for sure, but it is quite easy to outturn a 110 (theoretically). The problem is only the reargunner of the 110 who will take apart your mossie as you try to get to the 110's six by trying to outturn it.

With the Beaufighter it is even easier to win against a 110 especially at low altitudes because it has a really good turn rate which is very much better as the 110's turn rate. But it needs also to be very careful with the 110's reargunner.

The only thing the 110 can do pretty well is outclimbing it's opponent, as every Messerschmitt can do so :D (nearly)

This map really rocks!

MajorDamage
08-03-2007, 21:53
Yeah I really wish we had the Ju88C which is the plane that really featured historically here. The combination of Ju88C and Me110 would be really interesting.

Right, I popped on the server this morning while it was quiet to test again. There's good news and bad news....

It looks like you can't limit the numbers of AI aircraft. Am I right? The < planes command was showing a limit of 12 B24's but after deliberately crashing one (in a proper explodey kind of way) it still showed 12. I presume this is because the Gennadich database doesn't actually recognise AI planes - it thinks you've spawned in something else. This would also mean you can't limit the loadouts of AI aircraft. I will remove the B24 limit from the ini file.

I tried spawning in the Me110 with all the loadouts in sequence, and couldn't get the 'm1' MG151 gunpod loadout to work - I think it's a bug at the Gennadich end again. The good news is you can use the MG151 with droptanks. This not only works as a work-around, it's actually a happy accident because it's perfectly reasonably to force the use of droptanks in a long-range fighter, and I hope some people will consider taking 25% fuel and dropping the tanks as they enter combat. I will stick a capitalized NOTE in the brief about this.

Interestingly, there are a couple of bomb loadouts that we can't restrict - again I suspect because of a Gennadich bug. I'm not going to tell you which ones. If you're sad enough to sit there trying to spawn with all the loadouts to discover which you're allowed then you're welcome to take some bombs with you, just keep it to yourself ok? ;)

Bad news - the targets are still not working. There are 4 groups of Uboats and 1 large convoy for Reds to destroy. Can't get SC to recognise one of the Uboat groups. Is there a maximum number of targets per side that SC recognises? I will try, as a work-around, combining 2 of the u boat groups into one.

Also, I tried to reduce the radius of the target groups last revision in order to fix the problems. Apparently the radius number is not in meters? It's now not recognising many of the targets. I will work it out and fix it.

Best not to load this map for the moment till I get a chance to fix it and send in a new version. Thank you everyone for your feedback and patience :fluffle:

Soz for long post - thought I'd document my problem-solving exercise in case other mapmakers stumble across similar problems.:)

Firelok
08-03-2007, 23:26
We flew this this evening and regardless of kooky target numbers it was a blast to fly, none of the target problems meant that things were getting nailed really quick. It works it might not be perfect but it definatley works enough for inclusion in my view.

Algorex
08-03-2007, 23:29
Hear hear!

MajorDamage
12-03-2007, 20:11
Sent in updated version.

MajorDamage
13-03-2007, 13:42
Tested the new version this morning - most of the targets are reporting in the right numbers and vaguely the right places.

Still one of the u-boat groups that just doesn't show up, dunno why. I'm just stumped so I reckon just leave it and see how it plays for a bit.

Firelok
13-03-2007, 14:03
Maybe it is, if you follow me. SC can only display 4 groups when you do the <targets command, although it can track more than this they don't appear until one of the first groups is totally destroyed and no longer displayed.

Kat
13-03-2007, 14:28
Maybe it is, if you follow me. SC can only display 4 groups when you do the <targets command, although it can track more than this they don't appear until one of the first groups is totally destroyed and no longer displayed.

and it doesn't allways seem to show the same 4 to all people. When PQ20 had 5 distinct groups some people saw groups mentioned that I couldn't see. Maybe you could make the target areas larger to reduce the numbers. In a way would be more prototypical as uboat hunting did require a bit of exploring to find targets.

Firelok
13-03-2007, 14:40
Having groups that the targets command doent display isn't totally bad, we are spoilt with Server Commander in this as we dont have to remember what we read in the brief (if we read it) and then where the targets are. Anyway before fixing something that might not be broke we should bomb the stuffing out of the U-Boats on Biscay and see what happens.:D

Kat
13-03-2007, 14:49
Having groups that the targets command doent display isn't totally bad, we are spoilt with Server Commander in this as we dont have to remember what we read in the brief (if we read it) and then where the targets are. Anyway before fixing something that might not be broke we should bomb the stuffing out of the U-Boats on Biscay and see what happens.:D
Sounds good to me :D

MajorDamage
13-03-2007, 19:48
Maybe it is, if you follow me. SC can only display 4 groups when you do the <targets command, although it can track more than this they don't appear until one of the first groups is totally destroyed and no longer displayed.

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!! Revelation. I think I did ask earlier in this thread if there was some maximum number of target groups, but it was probably buried amongst so much waffle that no one read it :rolleyes:

In that case, it probably is working fine, except for the grid refs being slightly off. I Don't actually mind that cos I think it's good that you have to go out there and search with your F7 surface search radar.

Phew... maybe I'll actually get to fly on this now instead of stressing over whether its working properly or not. :) :mp5:

Algorex
19-03-2007, 00:42
In reference to the discussion on TS about the mossie in coastal command service and balance adjustments. I Looked in to my web reference vault and came up with Coastal Command ORBATs (http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~jnoakes/ram/cc/strength.html) No. 19 Group was responsible for the biscay area.

MajorDamage
19-03-2007, 10:23
What, are you suggesting the map is not Historically Accurate? 307 Squadron flew mosquitos over the Bay of Biscay at this time:
http://www.geocities.com/Mohikanie/307/307Story.html

Nevertheless, I have been considering losing either the Mosquito or Beaufighter from this map for the sake of balance, as has been suggested. As it is the 110 is sandwiched between the peformance of the two aircraft - the mossie is faster and the Beau out-turns it. I think the 110 can probably handle one but not both.

I would suggest ditching the mosquito - it's so much faster that despite the rear gunner on the 110 you just feel like a sitting duck in it. The relative performances of the 110 and Beaufighter feel a little more reasonable. What do you all think?

Firelok
19-03-2007, 10:56
Mossie out turns the 110 and is faster, we could experimentally remove the mosquito and see how it goes. But how about a limited numbers mosquito?

Algorex
19-03-2007, 11:16
Beau or mossie, they're just a way to get the controls to work with the Liberator ;)

Boemher
19-03-2007, 11:27
Save the Mossie!

This is the only map where it can shine as a fighter. If you must get rid of something make it the Beaufighter, which has a few maps where it is really effective like Burma 43 and one of the early Desert maps whose name I have forgotten.

As for the Bf 110 not being up to it, two or more pilots flying together make it much more competitive. Im not convinced it cant turn with the Mossquito either, the Bf 110 seems to be more controlable for me during turning turning manuvers whereas the Mosquito often feels like it is perched teetering on the edge of an abyss when you approach its stall speed.

How about we test it one night where me and another volunteer on TS take the Bf 110 and see how we do by applying some simple engagement rules, like flying in at least pairs and trying to climb to get an altitude advantage before reaching the enemy?

MajorDamage
19-03-2007, 12:18
How about we test it one night where me and another volunteer on TS take the Bf 110 and see how we do by applying some simple engagement rules, like flying in at least pairs and trying to climb to get an altitude advantage before reaching the enemy?

This is a great idea - half the problem is that many UK2 regulars get all excited when given mossie and beau options and neglect the poor old 110. As regards saving the mossie rather than than the beau, I wonder if we might be better making another map for the mossie vs 110 match (perhaps the 633 sqn map? hint hint). If the mosquito was forced to fly low and maybe carry bombs ...

MajorDamage
19-03-2007, 18:46
Ok - I take it all back. :D I think I've been paying too much attention to the luftwhiners. We just played this map flying 110's and absolutley tore it up, in fact some were complaining the 110 was too good :rolleyes: Whirlin at one point typed into the chat bar 'the me110 is a real killer' and there was this mass exodus from red to blue... suddenly everyone's flying a 110. Don't ya just love fair play.

One little problemo that perhaps u can fix your end Firelok: the downed (neutral) pilots that i put in as eye candy are counting as targets, so blue can't win at the moment. The percentage for that group needs to be dropped to 60%. I think the code should be this:

[Target1]
side=2
1=1 0 0 0 1000 21307 94251 700
2=1 0 0 0 1000 23848 101469 700
3=1 0 0 0 1000 33601 106097 700
4=1 0 0 0 1000 42222 113293 700
5=1 0 0 0 1000 41508 107139 1500
[Target2]
side=1
1=1 0 0 0 1000 27862 114001 2000
2=1 0 0 0 1000 17637 111352 2500
3=1 0 0 0 600 11854 108150 600

Firelok
20-03-2007, 10:55
OK this is easily done MD but I'm not sure which group this is in the breif....
BLUES DESTROY.
100% of the Escort Group in C12
100% of the Destroyers in B12
100% of the Corvettes in B11

MajorDamage
20-03-2007, 11:00
It's the corvettes in B11, but I'm not sure you neccessarily need to change it. There are 4 'corvettes' (russian trawlers) and 2 neutral pilots having a little swim. You still need to sink all 4 corvettes.. unless you deliberately bomb the guys in the water.

Whirlinmerlin
20-03-2007, 11:12
Despite the whinners I manged 3 kills in one sortie, 2 mossies and a beau in the 11o.
Those who know my 'skills' will realise how unusual that is!

Boemher
20-03-2007, 12:17
I mirrored your feat Whirlin, needless to say if we can score 3 in one sortie and rtb then the Bf 110 isnt sub par as a fighter on this map. If flown in pairs or larger numbers it can at least hold its own. As for the Beaufighter being able to out turn it, yesterday I turned with a Beaufighter until he stalled out and had to run away, the 110 behaves better at slows speeds imo.

Yellow 2
20-03-2007, 13:05
A very enjoyable map. The plane set is well matched and makes a very welcome change from the usual single engined fighters.

I've mainly flown the Bf110 but tried my hand on the Mozzie last night and found that you do have to know how to get the best out of each type to be successful.

Zorin
07-04-2007, 01:21
Really enjoyed the map tonight. :)

But I think the sleep times are messed up. Every target I approached had every ship firing at me. Bit suicidal attacking three U-boats with 20mm, even in a Beaufighter ;)

System-M-
07-04-2007, 02:05
The Uboats did put up a fight all firing but with 2 Liberators it was no match plenty of bombs between us and it can take its damage so the sleep time on them are not so bad really.

Zorin
07-04-2007, 02:10
In a Liberator, but not in a Beau or Mossie. ;)

And the target you attacked on the last run had three U-boats and a M-boat, all being active. Got killed there after my first pass, pk, what else ;)

MajorDamage
07-04-2007, 11:49
Really enjoyed the map tonight. :)

But I think the sleep times are messed up. Every target I approached had every ship firing at me. Bit suicidal attacking three U-boats with 20mm, even in a Beaufighter ;)

I increased the aaa from the U boats after an early test run of this map because the targets were getting nailed too easily. The main point of this scenario is that the U-boats are staying on the surface in groups to drive off RAF aircraft with their AA, so it does need to have a reasonable amount. When I watched tracks of the early tests I saw B-24's making several leisurely passes on on the targets without getting so much as a scratch which just felt a bit wrong.

Really the main ship killers on the red side should be the B-24's and H8K's. The only reason I've allowed bombs/rockets on the Beau's is so that reds have a flyable 'bomber' but TBH I'm seriously thinking of restricting them to guns only as well.

Having said all that, point taken, nobody likes to fly all the way to the target just to be pk'ed by the AAA. We can possibly dial back the ROF on the U-boats - might help the server load too, cos I get quite a few stutters on this map.

Anyone else had problems with the AAA?

MajorDamage
18-07-2007, 00:17
I had the good fortune to play this map twice in 24 hours thanks to a little maintenance-related glitch in the map cycle. I haven't had much opportunity till now to play it since it went in the cycle.

I'm feeling like the reds tend to be more popular - always seems to be 1 or 2 more players on the red side. Also it always seems to be reds who go for the targets which I think is because the Beau is the only 'fighter' which is also allowed bombs. It's also incredibly resilient and seems really hard to shoot down with the 110's default armament. Taking the MG151 gunpod is an option but this limits it's performance.

As far as I see it there are 3 options to level this up a bit:

1. Lose the Beaufighter. This would make it 110 vs Mosquito in terms of fighters.

2. Limit the Beaufighter to guns 'default' loadout only - same as mossie and 110.

3. Allow all twin engine planes, i.e. 110, Mosquito and Beaugfighter, to carry bomb loadouts.

I personally prefer option 2, what does everyone else think?

Algorex
18-07-2007, 04:19
Option 2 sounds most reasonable, especially the rocket armed shipping hunter beaus appeared a bit later in the war.

You may also want to add the A-20C to give the reds a bomber with a cockpit.

Firelok
18-07-2007, 09:21
Does the Beau end up slower with rockets? If so how much?
There are an number of advantages the Beau has;
It's turn radius is vastly superior to the 110
It's Armoured
4x.50s+4x.Hispanos(plenty of ammo too)
The 110 has a rear gunner true but vs the 4x.50s+4xHispano's ?
Mossies faster it's true still has 4xHispanos (is there less ammo?) but only .303MGs. 110s rear gunner is better vs Mossies.
I would let the 110 take bombs, as it is the 110s regular haunt is only their own fleet. But leave the Allied planes bombless.
The A20C gives a lot of bombing options to reds, might see a lot less B24/PBY action from reds if this was an option, which would make Biscay a bit less 'colourful' shall we say.I would go for this only if you decide to drop the Beau.

Overall I agree with Option 2 but think this with bombed up 110s.
(Beaufighter rocket only attacks is pretty tempting though:D )

MajorDamage
18-07-2007, 12:28
As Algore says the rocket armed Beaus should really be a bit later in the war. I'd rather not allow bombs on the 110's TBH. The Blues have both the Ju88 and He111 H6 as flyable bombers, as well as the very entertaining Fw200. The 110 really should be a long range fighter option.

For the moment I'd say let's restrict the Beau to default only and update the brief to explain that. I'm thinking we may have to rethink blue's targets also at some point - I never see the Blues going for the 'corvettes' for example.

BTW, although the Beaufighter out-turns the 110 on paper I'm not sure that in practice it's that obvious. The Beau handles really badly at low speeds and tends to stall out very easily. The 110 behaves much better, and while you're pulling a tight turn your rear gunner is spraying away.

MajorDamage
07-10-2007, 12:49
Haven't been flying much lately but I understand there's an issue with the Beaufighter being a bit too powerful on this map. Should we just remove it and have this as mossies vs 110's?

Sonko
07-10-2007, 20:30
the beaufighter is very potent as it may carry torpedos, bombs and rockets.
one possibility might be to limit the beaufighter to torpedo only because reds only have the betty as torpedo bomber...although, the betty should do it pretty good so kick the beaufighter if you like. iirc the mossie already is limited to guns only so both sides would play with the same cards.

MajorDamage
18-04-2009, 18:09
This map never really worked as intended to be honest, it's always been heavily red-biased. Now that we seem to be using quite a lot of AI planes should we try adding the Me210? I think there were 410s operating over the Bay of Biscay at this time so it wouldn't be out of place. Might be worth a try. I'd also suggest removing the bomb restrictions from the 110.

If that doesn't work I think we'll have to think about adding some single engined planes to the mix. I'd rather avoid doing that if possible, cos it's cool to have twins only, but the map's emptying the server at the moment.

Kang
18-04-2009, 20:10
How about removing the Liberators and instead having B-25s or so? It always seems the B-24s win the map for red because they wipe out a complete target area in one sortie.

Yellow 2
18-04-2009, 20:12
Adding the 210 seems a good idea to me as it is more agile than the 110. Adding single engine aircraft would spoil the nature of the map but if it is so unpopular then there may be little choice. :)

Fergi
18-04-2009, 20:40
There should not be single engine aircraft - that will make this map a normal map.
Usually most red players take superior Beaufighters and blue sometimes are minority. Adding 210 is really good idea.

Zorin
18-04-2009, 22:23
There were only a handful of Me410s operating over the Bay in 1944. The best idea would be to unlimit the 110 loadouts and limiting the number of B24s available.

Algorex
18-04-2009, 23:10
III/ZG1 was based in Brest between july and september '43, training with a mixture of me 210 and 410s and II/KG40 did receive Me 410As in may 43 but they were pulled during the following autumn, although they were placed in Gilze, Holland, it's half historical at least.
Sadly we don't have the Ju 88 heavy fighters available...

Replacing the mossie the B version or removing the beau and adding additional submarines could also be a sollution.