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Kat
22-02-2007, 20:06
Hi Guys,

With Anzio close to being buttoned down and Dragoon close to being ready to test it's time to think of the next map :P

I've got some ideas and wondered what you all thought.

1) Convoy - probably using norway.
Axis Planeset would be similar to MD's idea.
Allies however would be Martlet's and Avengers from an escort carrier ( which of course would be a fleet carrier to allow takeoffs) - Might take MD's Sunderland/B24 idea too.

Allied Convoy heading past Norway en-route to Russia for the axis to hit.
Allies hitting a couple of surfaced wolfpacks.

Maybe too similar to MD's idea though. (I though this up before he posted his map incedently)

2) Night Bomber two Missions.

B25's for wellingtons attack a target escorted by Beaus and/or Mossies. Bf110's and maybe some 109's provide the axis defence.

Either on the same map or second mission.

He111's and Ju88's with Bf110 intruders ranging looking for british nightfighters. Against Hurri IIC's, Beau's and Mossies.

With F6, searchlights and the fact AI gunners are fairly trigger happy shouldn't be impossible.

Oh I did a test @ 6000m and I can use the lights as target markers. So for instance Red to indicate IP, Green for aimpoint and bright white as the release point. i.e. pathfinder flares. Searchlights reach 6000m no problem at all and bombers seem to glow nicely in a searchlight beam.

3) Bismark Sea (RAAF contribution)

So Beaufighters, Catalinas, Buffalo's ( for Boomerang) and P40's

against

Zero's and?

Hitting Japanese convoy's.


Feedback please guys :D

NS-IceFire
22-02-2007, 22:31
We've already got a Bismark sea, its just not on the server right now. Not sure what happened to it actually. I've still got it.

Bismarck sea saw lots of planes used...P-38s, P-40s, and all sorts. People will hate the balance on this mind you. The A6M3 is the best the Japanese had in the area...actually most were A6M2-21's due to the better range.

Kat
22-02-2007, 22:42
We've already got a Bismark sea, its just not on the server right now. Not sure what happened to it actually. I've still got it.

Bismarck sea saw lots of planes used...P-38s, P-40s, and all sorts. People will hate the balance on this mind you. The A6M3 is the best the Japanese had in the area...actually most were A6M2-21's due to the better range.
Obviously didn't know about the existing map, reading the reports in wikipedia which includes a nice map it seems the attacks where done in waves over several days by the different forces. Initially the long legged P38's, B17's B24's, B25's. Then as they came close to the coast the RAAF took over. So just having a map with RAAF forces would be feasable but looks like there might be balance issues plus the existance of a copy of the map.

What about the other ideas?

Firelok
22-02-2007, 23:25
Night bomber missions is a non-start TBO. We did have Objective_Moonlight which was Beaus Bf110s Ju88s B25s, at night, attacking ships. I dropped it in last years UK2 server revamp because it was a server empty-er map if it couldn't be voted off people left.
We only have one night map which is Istra and really it's pre-dawn lots of seachlights both sides targets are close together and it's a snow map which sort of helps making it all not too dark, it's still a map a certain section of our flyers dislike. But I'm glad to say it has a cult following too.
Pacific maps are the hardest to pull off really, finding an engagement where theres a chance of vaguely even air to air battles is really hard. Reds can have a hard time early on in the war and blues have a very tough job later on if there isn't any Imperial Japanese Army planes available. I'm still stalled half-way through a Papua New Guinea/Rabaul sort of map for lack of definative info on IJA planes at certain locations. late war F4Us SpitVIIIs and P38s is a nightmare for just Zeros and Ki 43s. The Ki84s were used just in China, homeland defence and the Philipines as far as I can find. Other scenarios like the air defence of Darwin end up looking like a re-run of the Pearl harbour map, without a decent location either.

NS-IceFire
23-02-2007, 00:02
Obviously didn't know about the existing map, reading the reports in wikipedia which includes a nice map it seems the attacks where done in waves over several days by the different forces. Initially the long legged P38's, B17's B24's, B25's. Then as they came close to the coast the RAAF took over. So just having a map with RAAF forces would be feasable but looks like there might be balance issues plus the existance of a copy of the map.

What about the other ideas?

Actually...the RAAF with P-40E, Spitfire Vc, and Beaufighter or alternatively the A-20G would be a pretty good match against A6M3/A6M2-21, D3A, and G4M-11.

Algorex
23-02-2007, 00:16
Actually...the RAAF with P-40E, Spitfire Vc, and Beaufighter or alternatively the A-20G would be a pretty good match against A6M3/A6M2-21, D3A, and G4M-11.

To me the bismarck sea has always been a red attack blue defend map, as in real life. This way the performance and durability advantage of the reds would be countered by the greater numbers on blue. I'm thinking lots of A6M2-21s and A6M3s with airstarts (or similar) against p-38s, p-40s, beaus, a-20cs, b-25, catalinas etc.

NS-IceFire
23-02-2007, 00:22
In the Bismarck Sea map that I did...this was mostly it. I think there were some Red targets but I can't remember. The Blue's also had the advantage of quite a bit of flak in a few locations including a nearby island so you could lure Red fighters there if you were in trouble.

ForkTailedDevil
23-02-2007, 00:39
I think that is why if my Vladivostock map works I may do a few series like it. Maybe '42-'43-'44 and such. Since a lot of the VVS planes aren't that fast maybe they would be somewhat "competitive" with Japanese aircraft. A lot of the LaGG's, Yak-1's, Yak-7's, and early Yak-9's only top out about 370mph. The lend lease P39's are the same and P-40's and Hurri's would be even slower. My biggest concern would be trying to bring down Il-2's in a Ki-43 or even a early Ki-61 that has a MG only armament. Most people wanna turn with the Soviet stuff anyway so more power to them if they are fighting A6M's and Ki-43's.

Kat
23-02-2007, 00:44
Do you think the convoy idea is too close to MD's map?

Main difference in mine is of course the allied planeset. Could also put hurricane I's in to represent CAM hurri's.

MajorDamage
23-02-2007, 11:11
I don't think the convoy thing is too close to Bay of Biscay, my only problem with it is that I don't think anything like that ever happened. The JW convoys were protected by escort carriers flying rocket and depth charge armed Swordfish. As far as I know the only times the fleet carriers came out to play were on the Tirpitz attacks, which is already covered by Ice's map. Also bear in mind that the Arctic convoys only went near enough to land to be troubled by the Luftwaffe during the winter months when the ice forced them further south, so Murmansk might be a better map choice if you're going to do a 'what if'.

If you like carrier ops this is a good starting point for scenario ideas:
http://wow.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsCarriers3.htm

I did notice this which I thought was intriguing:

OCTOBER 1943

Atlantic

Norway - Covered by battleships "Anson" and "Duke of York" and other units of the Home Fleet, US carrier "Ranger" launched air attacks against shipping off Bodo, northern Norway on the 4th. Four ships were sunk and others damaged.

Another idea which Zorin came up with yonks ago which I still think needs to be done is the Graf Zeppelin project. Perhaps he wouldn't mind if you picked it up and went with it? Imagine if the Kreigsmarine had ventured into the North Atlantic with an aircraft carrier protecting a battleship or two - would have caused quite a stir. Stick a couple of opposing carrier groups, a convoy and maybe elements of the British Home Fleet on the open sea on the Norway map, use the seaplane base in G14 for your Sunderlands and hey presto.

*EDIT* It's a real shame about night maps being unpopular on UK2 - I think they're all philistines - I love night maps. I remember though that when UK2 went through it's closed pit testing stage that the night bomber map was really cool. Sitting in the dark with your cockpit lights on peering out into the inky blackness... Perhaps the UK3 chappies would be happy to have a new night bomber map?

Kat
23-02-2007, 14:53
I'd have to use a fleet carrier purely to allow takeoffs from it ( unless I used airstarts ), I assume we can land on a postage stamp carrier tho.

So the convoy would have escort carriers but takeoff would be either from a fleet or airstart.

I am 99% sure some escort carriers had avengers so using them I think is ok.

Just checked and escort carriers DEFINATLY used Wildcats and Avengers off escort carriers.

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/SQUADRONS.htm

Oh I did think about night for UKD3 but concerned that it would be overly hard to find the enemy, with D2 F6 actually has a benefit for obvious reasons.

Firelok
23-02-2007, 15:06
Considering the 'what if' level of using the Graf Zeppelin idea, what sort of Carriers escort or other wise is a non-issue really. Considering that non-naval aircraft may be used bigger is better really. Another possibily now that the Norway map has shown up is a 1940 Narvik scenario modelling the abortive Allied attempt to control Norway and deny the Axis powers a supply of metals.

Kat
23-02-2007, 21:34
Considering the 'what if' level of using the Graf Zeppelin idea, what sort of Carriers escort or other wise is a non-issue really. Considering that non-naval aircraft may be used bigger is better really. Another possibily now that the Norway map has shown up is a 1940 Narvik scenario modelling the abortive Allied attempt to control Norway and deny the Axis powers a supply of metals.

Given the lack of aircraft carrier capable axis planes maybe the Zeppelin idea could be a breakout from norway with escort covered by 109's/190's whilst the RN attack it with a fleet, however the axis know about the fleet so send He111's and Ju88's against the fleet.

Would result in a similar planeset to dragoon.

Algorex
24-02-2007, 00:25
Given the lack of aircraft carrier capable axis planes maybe the Zeppelin idea could be a breakout from norway with escort covered by 109's/190's whilst the RN attack it with a fleet, however the axis know about the fleet so send He111's and Ju88's against the fleet.

Would result in a similar planeset to dragoon.

Stukas and bf-109s are able to take off from the carriers and ditch landing is a common practice anyway.

Kat
24-02-2007, 01:20
Stukas and bf-109s are able to take off from the carriers and ditch landing is a common practice anyway.
Wonder how popular being forced to do it ( pretty much - land bases I'm guessing will be there if we use Norway ) would be though?

Zorin
24-02-2007, 01:27
Wonder how popular being forced to do it ( pretty much - land bases I'm guessing will be there if we use Norway ) would be though?

We already had a Graf Zeppelin map Kat. It was the early days of the Vadso map, which started as Murmansk. Take a look at the "Semi-historical map"-thread in the main map building section.

The basic carrier setup worked very well and ditching was a common way of getting home. The Stuka B2 is the only Stuka that can take-off, being the lightest, and the 109s don't have a problem at all.

That said, my new norway map could be easily converted into a pure carrier battle. ;)

MajorDamage
24-02-2007, 13:54
Zorin, originally we had spoken about having the Graf Zeppelin in the Atlantic, but you ended up sticking it on the Murmansk map close to land which IMO rather defeats the point of a carrier. The Battle of the Atlantic doesn't lend itself to dogfight map fun because the Germans have no air cover, but if you give them an aircraft carrier...;)

Zorin
24-02-2007, 14:16
Zorin, originally we had spoken about having the Graf Zeppelin in the Atlantic, but you ended up sticking it on the Murmansk map close to land which IMO rather defeats the point of a carrier. The Battle of the Atlantic doesn't lend itself to dogfight map fun because the Germans have no air cover, but if you give them an aircraft carrier...;)

At that time we did not have a map that was suitable for such a mission. Now with the Norway map things have changed. ;)

MajorDamage
24-02-2007, 16:47
At that time we did not have a map that was suitable for such a mission. Now with the Norway map things have changed. ;)

Indeed, excellent, I look forward to it. :)

Kat
24-02-2007, 18:57
I think I might do the night mission for UKD3 sometime, I feel UKD2 is better due to F6 ( one time I find it more than acceptable ) but UKD3 is more like to accept it and with clever use of searchlights finding targets shouldn't be a big problem.

Algorex
24-02-2007, 19:07
I think I might do the night mission for UKD3 sometime, I feel UKD2 is better due to F6 ( one time I find it more than acceptable ) but UKD3 is more like to accept it and with clever use of searchlights finding targets shouldn't be a big problem.

Look up objective_moonlight before making it ;)

Firelok
25-02-2007, 00:07
Look up objective_moonlight before making it ;)

Seeing as how Uk3 has started with Uk1's maps Objective_Moonlight should still be around there.