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Kat
22-02-2007, 20:46
Been advising ForkTail on his map and he sent me a file so I took the liberty of pictures. I'll let Fork reply to this and post briefing stuff etc.

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vlad.jpg

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vlad1.jpg

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vlad2.jpg

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vlad3.jpg

http://bananaz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vlad4.jpg

Sorry about small size - running out of space on my ISP webspace :)

Firelok
02-03-2007, 20:02
This is uploaded Vladivostok.mis

FlyingFinn
02-03-2007, 20:09
Mewant to know what planewe be able to fly on this map?? OK? :o

ForkTailedDevil
02-03-2007, 20:15
As in previous posts this is a what if map. Based in the scenario that the Japanese were victorious over the Soviet Union in the battles in the Mongol frontier during 1939. Inspired by their win they decide to secure the eastern portion of the Soviet Union before attacking the allies. In the early fall of 1941 they attack the Port of Vladivostok to eliminate the Red Navy Pacific squadron. Also they will launch a land invasion to capture the city.

Blue objectives: Eliminate the Soviet fleet at port. Destroy Soviet armored patrols.

Red objectives: Destroy Japanese carriers and Japanese invasion forces.

Blue planeset:

A6M2
A6M2-21
B5N2
D3A
G4M1
Ki-21 I
Ki-21 II
Ki-27
Ki-27 Otsu
Ki-43a
Ki-43b
Ki-43c

Red planeset:

I-153M
I-153P
I-16 18
I-16 24
DB-3B
DB-3T
TB-3
TB-3 SPB
I-16 SPB

FlyingFinn
02-03-2007, 20:30
Interesting planeset, this should be fun :)

Zorin
03-03-2007, 01:11
Very nicely done. :)

Only concern. I-16 24/I-153P. You already have the SPB cannon armed version (hopefully in very limited numbers) and therefor there is no need for a second cannon armed I-16/I-153P.

Why not instead throw in a Yak-1 for the reds who prefer to BnZ instead of TnB?

ForkTailedDevil
03-03-2007, 14:52
I thought about that Zorin. But the SPB I-16's are supposed to be for SPB missions. I realize that at least half probably wont be used that way though.

Firelok
05-03-2007, 01:19
Having tested this on a full server this evening I have to say it's not viable in it's current form:o

The distance for the Red planes to get to their targets and their defence points is too long because of the low speeds(this is mirrored with the IJA planes too.) I really like the idea of this map IJN/IJA vs USSR (early) but the bases layout of Manchuria is working against it forcing a spread of action over a massive area.
The slower USSR planes have a long flight time to even get to Vladivostok harbour to conduct a defence compared to the IJN fleet, this means that the faster zeros get to arrive there and loiter at a much greater height.
USSR bomber flight-times to the fleet are affected by the high temperature of the Manchuria map too.(I flew a TB3 to the fleet at 75% throttle rads open and overheated just getting there.)
Having been involved looking at this pre-upload I was hopeful it'd be OK but after testing it's going to require a redesign to work. Finding a solution that fits in both IJN and IJA planes within a suitable distance isn't immediately obvious to me but it's something I shall have a think about.

ForkTailedDevil
05-03-2007, 14:53
Kinda sucks that the map designers made the airflields so far away from everything. Maybe I will have to change the forward blue base to a Russian one. I really wanted some Japanese Army aircraft involved but I may have to change some stuff around. Back to work I guess. As far as the plane set is concerned was there any problems there?

Firelok
05-03-2007, 15:37
Kinda sucks that the map designers made the airflields so far away from everything. Maybe I will have to change the forward blue base to a Japanese one. I really wanted some Japanese Army aircraft involved but I may have to change some stuff around. Back to work I guess. As far as the plane set is concerned was there any problems there?

Attempting to keep the IJA involved might be possible by adding fighter bases on to Vladivostok peninsula (around where the little lakes are.) Early LaGG's,Yaks and the Pe2 from the east bomber base could shorten things there.
Maybe shifting the layout of the IJN fleet pushing the carriers eastward near to shore might increase their flight-times a little coupled with shaping the escort ships northwards making these first contact targets for red bombers with the carriers at the back. As I said I think it's a good idea but map constraints have made it a bit blumming awkwards for you, I'll have a muck around in FMB and see if I can come up with some alternatives you could pursue.

Firelok
07-03-2007, 12:39
After some behind the scenes discussion we've thrashed out a revised version that keeps as much as possible to the layout posted above big changes are another airbase for reds in AR15 (with all Polikarpov fighters) faster escort fighters from the rear bases (Yak1s,LagGGs,MiGs) and the Pe2 added over on the east base, blue fleet has been re-arranged a bit and shifted slightly and both fleets have a battleship now too.


RED
I-153M62
I_153P=16
I-16type18
I-16type24=16
I-16type24_SPB=16
Pe-2series1
LaGG-3series4
TB-3_4M-17
TB-3_4M-34R_SPB=8
Yak-1
MiG-3
MBR-2-AM-34
BLUE
A6M2-21
B5N2
D3A1
G4M1_11
Ki-21-II
Ki-27-Otsu
Ki-43-Ib
Ki-43-Ic
* the previous ordinance limits for red are still there BTW (it just makes list so hard to read with them all added.) but Zeros can carry bombs now if they want.
Checked this just now, targets/planelimits mularkey all correct.

ForkTailedDevil
07-03-2007, 12:49
Is this uploaded now then?

Professor
07-03-2007, 13:01
G4M1 there? Yay!!!!

Firelok
09-03-2007, 07:37
Well it all works but those old experiemental Polikarpov cannon armed planes, especially the i-153P are causing havoc with the IJN planes. Considering as how the Reds now have access to the LaGG,Yak and MiG perhaps we can get more balance without the cannon armed Chaikas and Ratas ?

FlyingFinn
09-03-2007, 08:11
I want to fly so badly on UKD2... BUT I have to finish my project on UKD1 1st :cool:

All these new maps for UKD2/3 make me drool!

ForkTailedDevil
09-03-2007, 12:31
I agree. Also the only reason I originally had them was they were the only other planes to fly. Also there were limited to about 10. I was honestly horrified how they cut through the A6M's I figured the A6M's could bnz them but guess not.

Sonko
07-07-2007, 02:00
Might it be okay to set the must-be-destroyed-percentage of the targets about 15% lower? This might provide some free space in case of accidents like crashing into the targets so that not 100% must be destroyed.


The convoy in AQ15(?) must be completely destroyed to get it out of the targets-command list. Sometimes it is just a bit annoying to have to load up a 800kg bomb onto the betty to kill the last remaining tank in this far away area.:rolleyes:

*EDIT*
Maybe the 20mm I-16 could be replaced by the death star laser I-16?

Firelok
07-07-2007, 03:33
Might it be okay to set the must-be-destroyed-percentage of the targets about 15% lower? This might provide some free space in case of accidents like crashing into the targets so that not 100% must be destroyed.

this has no effect on SC %tages, take a freindly aircraft and crash it onto your own teams targets and see what happens. i-16 type24 is avalable in very limited numbers (12) BTW.

Zorin
07-07-2007, 04:55
I think it is important to see the limit of planes in context with the number of types available.

For example:

PS 1

I-153M62
I-16type18
I-16type24=12
Pe-2series1
LaGG-3series4
TB-3_4M-17
Yak-1
MiG-3

PS 2

I-16type24=12
Pe-2series1
LaGG-3series4
TB-3_4M-17
Yak-1

The first plane set gives 6 different fighters to chose from, which gives the limit of 12 cannon I-16s lesser weight than the same limit for the second plane set where there are only 3 types to chose from.

So the point is, the limit must be seen in context with the overall plane set and not limited to the capabilitys of a certain type.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 09:54
I think it's bit harsh for the reds to have 4 carriers as must destroy targets (the % is quite high IIRC) in addition to the escorts and cargoes.

Firelok
07-07-2007, 09:58
The convoy in AQ15(?) must be completely destroyed to get it out of the targets-command list.

It's on 95% at the moment BTW.
It's an odd match the i-16s vs Zero's to be sure, The Zero holds all the cards vs the i16type18(green lasers) but is slower than the i16type24(2x20mm) and the 7.62 mm MG (ShKAS) on both planes is an excellent MG for setting Zeros on fire.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 10:09
So it's basicly the same as 100% if there's less than 20 ships. :rolleyes:

Firelok
07-07-2007, 10:24
So it's basicly the same as 100% if there's less than 20 ships. :rolleyes:

Convoy, as in 'vehicle convoy' Old Bean ;)
Ship targets for both sides are set at 80%

Sonko
07-07-2007, 21:41
But there are no more than 20 cars in AQ15(?) so it doesn't matter if the brief says 95% when in reality 100% need to be destroyed.

irish
07-07-2007, 22:08
The PE2 is unstoppable on this map. You can sink a CV in one pass and the Japanese can't catch you. The rear gunner turns zekes into flaming garbage:eek:
Personally, I love it!

Firelok
07-07-2007, 23:03
Having looked at this more closely the brief and the actual target %tages were different with the brief saying 95% etc. I've altered the brief and the .ini files so that all targets are on 80% that should be OK I think.

Sonko
08-07-2007, 03:07
Thank you very much!

Zorin
08-07-2007, 04:39
The PE2 is unstoppable on this map. You can sink a CV in one pass and the Japanese can't catch you. The rear gunner turns zekes into flaming garbage:eek:
Personally, I love it!

So true... same for the MiG. Both only need to shift to a higher gear and easily avoid any fighting. :(

irish
08-07-2007, 12:18
So true... same for the MiG. Both only need to shift to a higher gear and easily avoid any fighting. :(

Didn't even realize the MiG was on it. How many times can you claim the PE2 is the plane to fly, though?

Firelok
05-08-2007, 10:54
An open question then....

In terms of planes, size, objectives, online playability.

Do you think this map is working?

irish
05-08-2007, 14:33
my only beef is the loading time. other than that, it's slowly become one of my favs.

Maybe strip the PVO's of some of there more potent fighter AC. Put a limit on the PE2's. This is of course assuming that the problem is Red whacking Blue. I really don't know as of the 3 times I've played till the end, Red won once and the other 2 were stalemates

Boemher
05-08-2007, 14:42
Havnt really played it much but yesterday the Blues team and their Betty's and Vals won the map. So it seems that it isnt too one sided.

Zorin
09-08-2007, 22:59
Letum showed today what a misfit the MiG is for this map. He could circle over the blue carriers in a radius of 2 grids and BnZ as he pleased cause all we Zero pilts were incapable of catching him.

I can live with a fast bomber (Pe2), cause it is nice to know that you can actually srvive a bomb run, but a immune fighter is a bit much, IMO.

irish
09-08-2007, 23:24
Letum showed today what a misfit the MiG is for this map. He could circle over the blue carriers in a radius of 2 grids and BnZ as he pleased cause all we Zero pilts were incapable of catching him.

I can live with a fast bomber (Pe2), cause it is nice to know that you can actually srvive a bomb run, but a immune fighter is a bit much, IMO.

Yeah, you would almost have to believe, that given the scenario (a Japanese attack on the USSR while the Soviets were preoccupied with the German invasion) that the MiG's would have all been sent West upon the outbreak of fighting between the Nazis/Soviets.

not my call though

Firelok
10-08-2007, 00:29
Letum showed today what a misfit the MiG is for this map. He could circle over the blue carriers in a radius of 2 grids and BnZ as he pleased cause all we Zero pilts were incapable of catching him.

I can live with a fast bomber (Pe2), cause it is nice to know that you can actually srvive a bomb run, but a immune fighter is a bit much, IMO.

My grave doubts about this map are the surviving SPD i16 type 24s. They are never used for the SPD and are true zero killers.

As for the MiG3 it has similar speed benefits over the Zero as does the FW190A4 vs SpitVb's on Channel42 I'd be suprised if it had the same impact on events as the cannon armed i6s which outgun and are faster than a Zero and the turnrate of both planes that different especially with the superior roll-rate of the I16s. How things would go with neither the MiG or the I 16 type 24s I don't know nor How a TB3 only bomber force would do either.

Zorin
10-08-2007, 00:39
My grave doubts about this map are the surviving SPD i16 type 24s. They are never used for the SPD and are true zero killers.

As for the MiG3 it has similar speed benefits over the Zero as does the FW190A4 vs SpitVb's on Channel42 I'd be suprised if it had the same impact on events as the cannon armed i6s which outgun and are faster than a Zero and the turnrate of both planes that different especially with the superior roll-rate of the I16s. How things would go with neither the MiG or the I 16 type 24s I don't know nor How a TB3 only bomber force would do either.

I think we should try it without the MiG and the cannon I16. All japanese planes are of the easy set aflame type and should be no real harm to a TB3 group. Especially with the dead 6 crowd.

irish
10-08-2007, 01:30
Dead 6 crowd...(rimshot)...get it, dead

Ok, I'll be leaving

Firelok
10-08-2007, 08:49
I've totally removed the cannon armed SPD i16s and limited the MiG3 to 12 planes. I want to wait and see if the MiG needs total removal, I don't think it's a very dangerous plane however fast.

Algorex
10-08-2007, 09:05
I've totally removed the cannon armed SPD i16s and limited the MiG3 to 12 planes. I want to wait and see if the MiG needs total removal, I don't think it's a very dangerous plane however fast.

Very few people can use the mig properly (that's why the brewsters in the finland map survive). The MG only armament isn't exactly powerful even against the japanese. Even the b'n'z is limited by it's poor high speed handling and tendensy to lose control surfaces in dives.

Algorex
06-10-2008, 22:36
Sonko adjusted the bases, added static ac for every flyable ac, more aaa

ForkTailedDevil
07-10-2008, 12:22
Glad to see my map is still in rotation an that some still like it. Over the weekend we were flying it and we had the time extended twice. Originally I didn't want the Mig, Pe2, or the Lagg3. But to balance the plane set I had to. I think that a lot of people don't use the MiG to its potential. But it is just as fragile as the Ki's or the A6M.

I for sure agree with dumping the I-16's with the cannon with their damage modeling they are tough for the Japanese to bring down. Beyond that they are really close in terms of performance. I think on paper the Zero should be a touch faster. What about a air start for the Zero to dive on the incoming Pe-2's??