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Zorin
23-02-2007, 15:42
Idea:

Something like an early Hastings. Shipping targets for both sides. Merchants for reds and destroyers + carrier for blue.

Plane set

Blue

Bf109E4
Bf109E4/B

Bf110C4/B(?)

Red

Sea Hurricane IIb
Sea Gladiator

BlenheimMKIV(?)

Kat
23-02-2007, 16:34
Definatly need the Blenheim IV, seems quite a restricted set though, perhaps A20C and Ju88 too?

Zorin
23-02-2007, 17:07
Do you know Hastings?

The BostonIII did not see action that early I'd say, besides the map doesn't allow for its deployment cause distances would be too log for such a slow (early) plane set.

As the Herdla base only allows for planes of the size of the 110 to take-off, the Ju88 is no option as well.

Another option would be airstarted Ju88s, no AI planes and reds put in a purely defensive role.

Firelok
23-02-2007, 18:44
seems quite a restricted set though,

Over time I'm becoming more and more keen on small planesets. Get it right balance-wise and they work very well. The important/most used planes on any map are usually only one or two types anyway.

I think the Blenheim would have to go in or your limited on the type of ship reds are capable of destroying with Hurri2bs. Perhaps airstarting them behind the Red fleet? As an added incentive and as a balance Ju87s airstarted over the Norway coast? Stuka attacks on Shipping are excellent fun worth considering anyway.

Zorin
24-02-2007, 01:13
Over time I'm becoming more and more keen on small planesets. Get it right balance-wise and they work very well. The important/most used planes on any map are usually only one or two types anyway.

I think the Blenheim would have to go in or your limited on the type of ship reds are capable of destroying with Hurri2bs. Perhaps airstarting them behind the Red fleet? As an added incentive and as a balance Ju87s airstarted over the Norway coast? Stuka attacks on Shipping are excellent fun worth considering anyway.

We can try that. Sounds like fun, so I know that reds will complain about not having a cockpit bomber... Didn't the RAF have something that was similar to a SBD?

Kat
24-02-2007, 01:31
Do you know Hastings?

The BostonIII did not see action that early I'd say, besides the map doesn't allow for its deployment cause distances would be too log for such a slow (early) plane set.

Actually the Boston III was ordered in Feb 1940 so probably was in service by then. That said I understand the thoughts on a limited planeset but the A20C wouldn't be out of place.

Zorin
24-02-2007, 01:36
Actually the Boston III was ordered in Feb 1940 so probably was in service by then. That said I understand the thoughts on a limited planeset but the A20C wouldn't be out of place.

I read the same source Kat, but between placing an order, completion, fairy flights, testing, pilot training and finally putting into service usually lay quite a bit of time.

Kat
24-02-2007, 01:39
I read the same source Kat, but between placing an order, completion, fairy flights, testing, pilot training and finally putting into service usually lay quite a bit of time.
Well pilot traiing would be pretty complete as we where already using the boston 1 and the havoc II but you may be right, just saying it's an option that's not inappropriate.

Kat
24-02-2007, 02:18
Just found the inservice days - July 1941 for Boston III :P.

but didn't go in combat till 1942 :P

Still Boston II's where around - that said I'm just throwing around options.

As a in cockpit flyable option I don't think using the A20C is a bad choice.


The RN aircraft you are thinking of btw Zorin is either the Fulmar or Skua. Both classed as fighter's (although their figher capability is debatable ) with the option to carry bombs.

Zorin
24-02-2007, 02:29
Just found the inservice days - July 1941 for Boston III :P.

but didn't go in combat till 1942 :P

Still Boston II's where around - that said I'm just throwing around options.

As a in cockpit flyable option I don't think using the A20C is a bad choice.

I don't want to say "Told you", but allow me a :D ;)

Besides, the A20C could be too fast for this plane set, outrunning the E4 on the deck.

Kat
24-02-2007, 02:31
I don't want to say "Told you", but allow me a :D ;)

Besides, the A20C could be too fast for this plane set, outrunning the E4 on the deck.

Well send the 110's after them then :P ;)

Firelok
24-02-2007, 08:47
What about this?

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/blackburn_skua.htm
The Blackburn Skua, might work?

Zorin
24-02-2007, 12:00
What about this?

http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/blackburn_skua.htm
The Blackburn Skua, might work?

Yeah, my thinking, that could be represented by a SBD.

Zorin
26-02-2007, 02:39
What do you think of turning this into a carrier battle with the fictious Graf Zeppelin?

Blue

Bf109E4
Stuka B2

Bf110C4/B (airstart)

Red

Sea Hurricane IIb (carrier)
Sea Gladiator (carrier)

BlenheimMKIV (airstart)

I guess reds need the MkIIb or there will be a rebellion if they were limited to the MkI, right?

Kat
26-02-2007, 02:58
VERY tricky one regarding the I/IIb issue the Mk I is technically the right model but obviously the problem is 'our' Mk I is almost a Mk 0.5 :).

How about you use Martlets and Sea Gladiators?

Martlets entered service in the FAA in 1940.

Kat
26-02-2007, 03:21
In fact after a quick bit of research your best model would be the Martlet.

Hurricanes probably wouldn't have been involved at all (unless land based) as in 1941 the only ones in use where CAM hurricanes.

I don't believe Sea Gladiators would like to have been involved either (think most if not all served in the Med - althought many where lost in the Norwegian Campaign ).

in 1941 the FAA basically had Martlets, Skua and Fulmar's.

So Martlet and Blenheim vs E4+Ju87 ?

Maybe find room for the earliest naval Divebomber for red's?

Pretty sure there is a suitable one and could replace the Blenheim?

Zorin
05-03-2007, 17:30
Ok, layout changed a bit. Red are landbased and blues are carrier based and airstarted.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1944/mapex4.jpg

Blue:

Bf 109E7/B (carrier)
Ju87 B2 (limited to 1x500kg bombs)

Bf-110 C-4/B(airstarted AI)

Red:

Hurricane IIb
SBD-3

Mosquito B.MK.IV(AI)

Blues will have to bomb Peterhead to allow for a save passage for the convoy.

Reds will have to sink the convoy.

Hopefully a simple but yet fun map.

stanford
05-03-2007, 19:24
Indeed it does look simple and fun. Is the Martlet a no go then? I liked the idea of it, but have no idea whether it will be correct in this situation.

Kat
05-03-2007, 19:29
Indeed it does look simple and fun. Is the Martlet a no go then? I liked the idea of it, but have no idea whether it will be correct in this situation.
Nope although depending on the year IIC's may be viable. They definatly served in scotland.

Zorin
05-03-2007, 19:31
Nope although depending on the year IIC's may be viable. They definatly served in scotland.

You really prove to have no idea what a map needs to be viable...

Kat
05-03-2007, 19:38
You really prove to have no idea what a map needs to be viable...
I did say depending on the year ( to be honest I did a naughty and replied without totally checking the planeset ). As you where remodelling the origonal design I wasn't sure if you'd hanged the year.

Thinking about it perhaps the martlet might be an option. I replied they thought hang on a mo and yes "In the European theater, the Wildcat scored its first combat victory on Christmas Day 1940, when a land-based British Fleet Air Arm Martlet (as the type was originally known in British service) destroyed a Junkers Ju 88 bomber over the Scapa Flow naval base."

Whether they where still around 4 months later ( assuming march ) I don't know but it would be an interesting addition. Possibly even a better option than the IIb.

ForkTailedDevil
05-03-2007, 20:27
Speaking of Martlets did you ever decide to do some Greek one's Z?

Zorin
05-03-2007, 21:31
Speaking of Martlets did you ever decide to do some Greek one's Z?

I'm trying to contact some of my Greek friends who may be able to provide some background info.

Algorex
05-03-2007, 23:57
I'm trying to contact some of my Greek friends who may be able to provide some background info.

Thing is they never made it to greece.


The next Wildcat to be received by the Fleet Air Arm were in Spring of 1941, when 30 Grumman F4F-3a Martlet III ordered by Greek Purchasing Commission in August 1940 for shipment to Greece reached Port Suez in April 1941, then diverted to the Royal Navy under Lend-Lease transfer on 4 April 1941. These aircraft were subsequently involved in convoy patrols, one Martlet piloted by Sub Lt R Griffon shot down a S.79, forced two others to jettison bombs, then hit by return fire attacking a fourth, dived vertically into sea 50m N of Ras el Milh on 28 December 1941.

ForkTailedDevil
06-03-2007, 00:50
I know that Kat I wanted some what if Greek Martlets. Just like my what if Greek Hurricane's. Geez

Kat
06-03-2007, 01:00
I know that Kat I wanted some what if Greek Martlets. Just like my what if Greek Hurricane's. Geez

HEY!!! *points at who made the post*

I've not said a word about Greek Martlets.....


Algorex :- Thing is they never made it to greece.

Algorex
06-03-2007, 10:52
I know that Kat I wanted some what if Greek Martlets. Just like my what if Greek Hurricane's. Geez

My point is that there's no reference what the planes might have looked like. The planes were delivered Non-Specular Light Grey and painted by FAA depot to desert scheme.

The guesses could be based on other planes like PLZ P.24

http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/pzl_p24_greek/profiles/greek_p24f_d102.jpg

or Glad

http://imansolas.freeservers.com/Aces/Greek%20Gladiator%20I-%20D187.jpg

Zorin
06-03-2007, 11:46
My point is that there's no reference what the planes might have looked like. The planes were delivered Non-Specular Light Grey and painted by FAA depot to desert scheme.

The guesses could be based on other planes like PLZ P.24

http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/pzl_p24_greek/profiles/greek_p24f_d102.jpg

or Glad

http://imansolas.freeservers.com/Aces/Greek%20Gladiator%20I-%20D187.jpg

And that is where my friends should come in Algorex. The stuff about the Martlet I already knew. The basics and especially peculiarities about the Greek Airforce is where I need their help ;)

ForkTailedDevil
06-03-2007, 12:53
I sent Zorin a bunch of Greek skins I had also for idea's on camo scheme's. Call me crazy but I like all the weird or what if skins. Thanks for all your work Zorin.

stanford
06-03-2007, 14:57
You're crazy!

Zorin
06-03-2007, 15:15
Map is finished and will be send later today.

Blue:

Bf 109 E4 (carrier)
Ju87 B2 (limited to 1x500kg bombs-not in testing)

Bf-110 C-4/B(airstarted AI)

Red:

Buffalo Mk.I (resembles the G-36As, which were the Martlet I and taken over from France.)
Hurricane IIb
SBD-3

Blenheim Mk.IV(AI)

Zorin
06-03-2007, 18:17
Files have been send. :)

This is my 13th map, hope it is a lucky number ;)

Firelok
08-03-2007, 12:40
After discussing this with Zorin via PM, we decided to keep with the tradition/theme of mostly naming missions after the area where it happened, or in this case might have happened.
The mission is on the server now for testing called Banff.mis

Zorin
08-03-2007, 23:38
Tested it tonight and it works fairly well. Only real problem we have to fix is to give red bombers an airstart, something I already had in mind to add anyway. That way we'll see a max of 13 fighters for reds and 12 for blues. Should be ok that way. And about the fps drop over Peterhead... I have no idea what is causing it. AAA consists of three Bofors 40mm and two 50cals. Plus a ship off shore.

About the planeset, is the Buffalo MKI ok for you all?

MajorDamage
09-03-2007, 00:05
Really enjoyed playing this tonight, a nice looking map with some fun planes to fly.

I love the concept of this map - German surface units, accompanied by the might-have-been aircraft carriers, attempting to break out into the Atlantic to attack convoys, being spotted in the North Sea and attacked by the RAF.

Have you thought of changing the Blues targets? Instead of Peterhead, which is obviously causing some lag problems, why not have elements of the Home Fleet based at Scapa Flow coming out to try and intercept the German fleet? It would make more sense - the Kreigsmarine's task is to break out into the Atlantic without being spotted, why would they draw attention to themselves and waste munitions by bombing some little town in Scotland on their way? (Unless of course Boehmer lived there ;) )

Nice map anyway :)

Zorin
19-03-2007, 00:33
Some people reported a sever loss of fps over the target area. Could anyone shed some light on this? Any known bugs for this map?

Firelok
19-03-2007, 00:48
This should be altered so we don't have Peterhead airport as a target.
It could be used as another base to allow reds to spawn more than 15-16 players or leave it alone and go for a bomber airstart for reds. It's a nice looking target but the frame rates just die here for a sizable percentage of our players. I think it's a problem with the map itself not AAA or objects particularly. Maybe one of the later 109E models or even an 109F2 might balance the planes a bit more too, blues seem a little outclassed to me.I enjoyed it flying red the previous time but blue is not such good fun.

Zorin
19-03-2007, 00:55
This should be altered so we don't have Peterhead airport as a target.
It could be used as another base to allow reds to spawn more than 15-16 players or leave it alone and go for a bomber airstart for reds. It's a nice looking target but the frame rates just die here for a sizable percentage of our players. I think it's a problem with the map itself not AAA or objects particularly. Maybe one of the later 109E models or even an 109F2 might balance the planes a bit more too, blues seem a little outclassed to me.I enjoyed it flying red the previous time but blue is not such good fun.

Ok, I'll see what I can come up with in regards to Major's idea of a more shipping orientated target design.

There is no difference in performance between the E4 and the E7, so switching them would be pointless cause that way we would need to limit the loadouts on the E7, which will only cause the usual "Why is the plane listed if I can't fly it..." trouble. Well, and the F2 cannon would be completely useless against a SBD and the Hurri usually laughs when getting tickled by it, resulting in the F4 as the only step forward and I don't know if you want to see it here.

Algorex
19-03-2007, 01:01
Also when you give the blue a new target and move the airstarts around the situation will even up as now one of the problems is that the reds have very specific area they work in (majority of the red fighters hang around peterhead) where as the blues are more spread around.

MajorDamage
19-03-2007, 10:41
I seem to vaguely remember something about Goering only allocating out of date Me109s to the Graf Zeppelin - he hated having plane production diverted to the navy.

I didn't feel particularly hard done by flying an E4 on this map, though you could always add an E7Z I suppose.

Zorin
19-03-2007, 16:42
I seem to vaguely remember something about Goering only allocating out of date Me109s to the Graf Zeppelin - he hated having plane production diverted to the navy.

I didn't feel particularly hard done by flying an E4 on this map, though you could always add an E7Z I suppose.

The E7Z is a high altitude version which is slower than a standard E4 on the deck, so won't make much sense. I guess we should wait and see how it plays with the new setup and decide about a change of planes later on.