PDA

View Full Version : Dunkirk MKII



Kat
28-02-2007, 03:15
Ooookkk having taken on board what's said recently.. time to revisit.

Planeset

Allies
RAF BEF
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkI
Armée de l'Air
A-20C (for A-20A/DB-7)
Hawk81A-2 (for hawk 75 )

Luftwaffe
Bf-109E-4
Bf-109E-4/B (limit 20)
Ju-87B-2
Bf-109E-4
He-111H-2
Ju-87B-2

Sticking with what I had with a couple of tweaks. No JU88 (I want to keep the limits down, this keeps the bigger bombs out of the equation simply ), unlimited IIA, no J8A.

I'll locate a different piece of coast. Build up a nice town for Dunkirk with dock etc. and then line of beach targets similar to the current Dunkirk ( I like tha beach targets ).

I could go Blenheim and drop the French Airforce. Personally I think it (the french airforce) add's a bit of variety.

The Allies will launch from Airfields representing the LeHavre area (which was still in allied hands ) so similar to the current Caen base but further west. Axis will probably head north and possibly east to target.

Targets will be consistent in type to what the current map has.


Thoughts?

Firelok
28-02-2007, 11:07
Personally I think it (the french airforce) add's a bit of variety
It just adds another two planes that outperform what should be there. True you get a cockpit flyable level bomber but it's probably too good for the opposition.
The Hawk81 is again too good, possibly the best fighter available to either side.

Boemher
28-02-2007, 11:19
Were Jabo 109s used at Dunkirk? I thought the 1st Jabo raids were carried out against England ? Likewise the Hurricane IIb with bombs was developed after the Germans started hanging bombs of their 109s - so if it is present bombs should be restricted. Would it be possible to switch around the RAF base witj the German base? At them moment it doesnt seem right with the Germans to the North attacking South.

On the topic of the A20C, yesterday myself and Hyperion flew to targets and back 4 or 5 times each in the A20, no one could catch us. Only once did a 109 get close and when it did my gunners PK'd him instantly. I think that this aircraft is very fast and well protected for a 1940 map - it has become the Mosquito in terms of speed for most early war maps.

Perhaps the Dunkirk map could do with a thinning down of plane numbers and a refocusing on crap aircraft. Hurricane I is good enough imo to fight E4 and
Blenheim is crappy enough to bomb but be vulnerable as most light bombers were in 1940. The Germans could use the E4 and the Ju87B with small load outs and leave the heavy stuff at home.

So limited plane set, crappy planes, lots of soft targets for the crappy bombers to beat up, and no French presence. Then you would have a planeset that would be competitive and hopefully the action would be more concentrated around the actual beachhead.

Kat
28-02-2007, 11:27
So This?

Allies
RAF BEF
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkI
Blenheim

Luftwaffe
Bf-109E-4
Ju-87B-2

I want to include the IIb as the MkI is one of those fighters that, in the right hands, is probably fine against E-4's however with it's Negative G cutout it's going to be a plane that turns people away too. I don't mind limiting the IIb - easy either way on that front.

Boemher
28-02-2007, 11:41
On Belgrade the Hurricane I is popular against the 109, the match up is classic because the strengths of each plane are completely different. The 109 has speed and climb and negative G, the Hurri has turn and easy to aim guns and robust construction. Remember that the negative G cut out is fully relevant in 1940 and hampered actual RAF pilots throughout the early war period.

Anyway limited IIbs is fine if you want, but please limit load out so that there are no fighter bombers. Old school bombing in actual bombers and strafing in the fighters is the way to go for Dunkirk imo. Most targets can be strafed with the exception of proper tanks.

Kat
28-02-2007, 11:44
Anyway limited IIbs is fine if you want, but please limit load out so that there are no fighter bombers. Old school bombing in actual bombers and strafing in the fighters is the way to go for Dunkirk imo. Most targets can be strafed with the exception of proper tanks.

I would love to limit to no-bombs HOWEVER worried about complaints about AI only bomber... That said Aegean seems to work although I have seen people complain when the IIb runs out (complain as Blenheim is only remaining bomber).. Tricky one...

For the record I love flying Blenheims on Aegean :).

Boemher
28-02-2007, 11:57
For Blue Singapore is another largely AI bomber map and its great :D

My reluctance to have fighter bombers is so that this map has an early a war feel to it as possible. We just dont have the type of bombers that we need as flyables unfortunately and all the ones that do have cockpits like the A20 C are far too good. Early war light bombers were pants in reality think of the Fairey Battle - even the Wellington got slaughtered and it was supposedly a decent medium bomber. Currently the A20 C is invulnerable to most interceptions.

That leaves us with the choice ot tailoring the targets so that the Panzers are line abreast and easy to hit with an externals only Blenheim and having lots of soft targets to strafe with Hurris or making it slightly A historical by having fighter bombers. The fighter bomber was just simply not in use yet. If the IIb is there and does carry bombs then why would anyone take the Blenheim at all ? The targets dont all need to be hard, lots of half tracks would give Reds some reasonably tough yet still strafable soft targets.

Kat
28-02-2007, 12:04
For Blue Singapore is another largely AI bomber map and its great :D

My reluctance to have fighter bombers is so that this map has an early a war feel to it as possible. We just dont have the type of bombers that we need as flyables unfortunately and all the ones that do have cockpits like the A20 C are far too good. Early war light bombers were pants in reality think of the Fairey Battle - even the Wellington got slaughtered and it was supposedly a decent medium bomber. Currently the A20 C is invulnerable to most interceptions.

That leaves us with the choice ot tailoring the targets so that the Panzers are line abreast and easy to hit with an externals only Blenheim and having lots of soft targets to strafe with Hurris or making it slightly A historical by having fighter bombers. The fighter bomber was just simply not in use yet. If the IIb is there and does carry bombs then why would anyone take the Blenheim at all ? The targets dont all need to be hard, lots of half tracks would give Reds some reasonably tough yet still strafable soft targets.
Fair point, just playing devils advocate :)

The smaller tanks seem reasonbly week too so keeping to the Panzer I/II (less of) and then having more Half Tracks ( assume we're talking the non-armoured ones ) and artillery works.

stanford
28-02-2007, 12:05
Hurri Vs. 109 - I'd take a 109 every single time, as I'm sure the huge majority of pilots would. Pilots like yourself can probably handle a Hurri, Roland, but the majority of pilots (especially in the Mk.I) will be hugely outclassed. It climbs like a brick, and anyone with the remotest bit of common sense flying a 109 will be untouchable except for being bounced.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the Hurri to be removed, I just want the Mk. II in unlimited numbers. Reds will need them.

Oh for a Mk. I Spitfire :(

Boemher
28-02-2007, 12:10
Hurri Vs. 109 - I'd take a 109 every single time, as I'm sure the huge majority of pilots would. Pilots like yourself can probably handle a Hurri, Roland, but the majority of pilots (especially in the Mk.I) will be hugely outclassed. It climbs like a brick, and anyone with the remotest bit of common sense flying a 109 will be untouchable except for being bounced.

What do you suggest then, for Dunkirk the Hurricane is the appropriate RAF fighter ? Its like any match up, one side will always have a speed/climb disadvantage. The 109 was the faster plane, but for it to kill Hurricanes on a F6 enabled server it still has to engage in some form of combat. How many clean bounces do you get a map :eek:

Incidentally, the Hurricane still gets flown on maps where the opposition is the Bf 109 F4 so it cannot be that bad. As I said to Kat too, on Belgrade it is probably the most flown Allied type out of the E4, the Gladiator and the Yak 1 - so its not just me flying it.

ps - as for taking the E4 everytime, for me it has gotten to the stage where it is fun to fly the planes that are 'disadvantaged' sometimes, because it makes flying fun and kills more satisfying. You would be surprised how many 109s turn with slower planes. Lets face it; if flown properly the faster plane in a match up never needs to get shot down, yet how many can be bothered flying properly trying for 100/1 KD ratios :D

stanford
28-02-2007, 12:12
As above - simply don't limit the Mk. II. Reds will need them.

Boemher
28-02-2007, 12:19
Fair point, just playing devils advocate :)

The smaller tanks seem reasonbly week too so keeping to the Panzer I/II (less of) and then having more Half Tracks ( assume we're talking the non-armoured ones ) and artillery works.

The Pz II, Pz III and Pz 38 seem to be bullet proof from .303s. I think the Pz I will go down to sustained fire and the half tracks/AAA half tracks definately do. Yesterday myself and Hyperion spent ages trying to kill some of the heavier tanks with just the A20s nose guns ( I spent over 4000 rounds lol) before we decided it was going to have to be bombs.


as a side note Hurri I is 3km faster on the deck and turns slightly bertter when compared to Hurr IIb according to Hardballs

Kat
28-02-2007, 12:21
The Pz II, Pz III and Pz 38 seem to be bullet proof from .303s. I think the Pz I will go down to sustained fire and the half tracks/AAA half tracks definately do. Yesterday myself and Hyperion spent ages trying to kill some of the heavier tanks with just the A20s nose guns ( I spent over 4000 rounds lol) before we decided it was going to have to be bombs.


hehe - all the targets don't have to be strafable ;)

Just reasonably weak to a pair of 500lb or 250lb bombs (assuming a Blenheim with 4x250 will use them in pairs on seperate targets).

MajorDamage
28-02-2007, 13:34
The Allies will launch from Airfields representing the LeHavre area (which was still in allied hands ) so similar to the current Caen base but further west.

I'm no expert on this campaign so I hold my hands up if I've got this wrong. I thought all the RAF squadrons were pulled back to England by the time the evacuation started. Even if they hadn't, and if there was still an active airbase in the Le Havre region, a quick glance at an an atlas shows that it's nearly 250km from le Havre to Dunkirk and only about 70km to Dover. Doesn't make sense to me, and I don't see the advantage, mapmaking-wise, to having a red airbase on the continent.

Forgive me, I don't mean to dictate to you how you design your map, but rather than try to explain what I mean here's a very, very rough idea that fits this operation geographically at least:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/dunkirk.jpg

Perhaps the forward blue bases would be 109 and Stuka only, and the further one in O6 an He111 base. Perhaps also consider giving the Hurris an airstart to give them a bit of a helping hand and represent the fact that they've flown over the channel.

Just my tuppence worth :)

Kat
28-02-2007, 13:45
When I said Le Havre I mean that direction.

The Dunkirk Evacuation wasn't the last action by the BEF in France. The layout on the fronts on my current Dunkirk map is consistant with how they where. Shortly after Dunkirk ( and I didn't model this due to Concerns about lag over Le Havre - although I'm not sure it's an issue as Channel 43 runs close to Le Havre ) there was a second Evacuation at Le Havre around June 10 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cycle, then again in Normandy a 3rd Evacuation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ariel - 2 weeks later.

Shortly before Dunkirk this was the map, then obviously the pocket reduced but the south western front line I believe was fairly static at this time.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/16May-21May1940-Fall_Gelb.jpg

In fact shortly after Dunkirk a Canadian force was landed in France.

irish
28-02-2007, 14:04
Loving t6he new geographic layout of Dunkirk (revised)

More comments from the Peanut Gallery?

1. Don't limit the Mk11 Hurris. I realize it's the wrong crate for the time, but......The E4 wasn't there either. E1, E2, and E3 all featured neg G cutout (like the MkI Hurricane). I think we are going to have to bite the bullet on this one and accept the fact that any pre-1941 planeset is FUBARed.

2. Don't give Red targets to bomb. The entire effort on Reds side should be to ensure the BEF survives. Think about it for a second.....by evacuating the continent, the Allies have ceded Western Europe. Why waste pilots and material in an effort that is allready doomed? The fighting should be above the beaches and the immediate sea lanes near Dunkirk.

MajorDamage
28-02-2007, 14:23
Yeah I know there were further evacuations after Dunkirk. My question is were the RAF not pulled back to England at this time? With all those panzers roaming about and the perceived threat of a german invasion of England, it would seem to be a sensible strategic decision. Do you have any evidence of the RAF flying from bases in France at the time of the Dunkirk evacuation?

Also, the map you have posted shows the lines a week before the Dunkirk evacuation. Is this the situation you are representing with your dogfight map, because if so it might be better named 'Battle of France' or whatever.

Scuse the quality of the pic - I don't have a working scanner at the mo so had to photograph it:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/20070228_1855.jpg

I think the south western front had changed quite a bit by then.

Algorex
28-02-2007, 14:23
Loving t6he new geographic layout of Dunkirk (revised)

More comments from the Peanut Gallery?

1. Don't limit the Mk11 Hurris. I realize it's the wrong crate for the time, but......The E4 wasn't there either. E1, E2, and E3 all featured neg G cutout (like the MkI Hurricane). I think we are going to have to bite the bullet on this one and accept the fact that any pre-1941 planeset is FUBARed.

Actually both the Jumo 210G and the DB601A had fuel injection so the neg-G cut out wasn't an issue in any bf-109 after Dora, the earlier A/B/C used a jumo 210 with a carburettor though.

Kat
28-02-2007, 14:27
2. Don't give Red targets to bomb. The entire effort on Reds side should be to ensure the BEF survives. Think about it for a second.....by evacuating the continent, the Allies have ceded Western Europe. Why waste pilots and material in an effort that is allready doomed? The fighting should be above the beaches and the immediate sea lanes near Dunkirk.

Actually whilst Dunkirk was the major evactuation there was fighting, and even counter attacks occured after.. by adding a target for red to hit your adding a practical way of red winning the map without just shooting everything down. Without the bigger bombers pure shoot down is plausable but I think it's fairer to give reds some ground targets :/

Kat
28-02-2007, 14:32
I have seen other maps and the Defense line to the west remained unchanged ( in fact the forces there did some minor counter attacks ) during dunkirk. The reason I want French based RAF forces is primarally a practical one. Had they all pulled back to the UK, Honestly don't know, BUT the flight from the island base is quite long. Whilst we have other maps with the flight it is a flight thats right on the limit and I'd rather have a closer base ( I honestly love the base on the current map ) as it is more likely to produce the intense desperate feel of dunkirk than sporadic flights in.

Firelok
28-02-2007, 14:48
Did they have an airbase at Dunkirk?
I thought most of the sorties were flown over the channel. MajorDamages idea seems eminently sensible, I would have had it in I 8 or H9 coast and had the Blues coming in from the southern Caen base.

Kat
28-02-2007, 14:55
Did they have an airbase at Dunkirk?
I thought most of the sorties were flown over the channel. MajorDamages idea seems eminently sensible, I would have had it in I 8 or H9 coast and had the Blues coming in from the southern Caen base.
I don't believe they had one actually at Dunkirk it's self. In the origonal it was included for flight distance reasons. I can base them in the 'uk' but I just feel it loses some of the intensity then. I guess the flight to H9 is fine though so that would work. Used to our other channel maps which are offset so give much longer flight times.

irish
28-02-2007, 17:21
Actually both the Jumo 210G and the DB601A had fuel injection so the neg-G cut out wasn't an issue in any bf-109 after Dora, the earlier A/B/C used a jumo 210 with a carburettor though.

well, shoot....AlGore strikes again. thx for clarifying

Kat
07-03-2007, 12:27
Just a little update.

working steadilly through it, LOT of objects on the dock but that can't be avoided but does explain the time it's taking :).

Using the coast directly north of Caen as dunkirk. Extending a village to the coast and turning it into a town with a harbour.

Hopefulyl good when it's finished, just doing my eyes in moving all these tiny blocks so taking it steadilly :). Plus work is slowing it a bit. But I'll get there :).

Havn't decided if reds will have targets to hit on the ground.

I'll unlimit the IIb though.

Axis aircraft will be as per the origonal.

I did just have one thought. Bit of a wild idea and MAY be unfeasable but hey it's something different. How about a HEAVILLY loadout restricted ( I'm talking pure bombs only - no rockets or cluster munitions ) IL2 as a Fairy battle?

Firelok
07-03-2007, 12:48
Big difference is....
Fairy Battle.- one forward firing .303 MG

IL2.- two forwards firing 7.62mm and two 20mm cannon.

People (and please do excuse the pun) 'will have kittens':D

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 12:48
I did just have one thought. Bit of a wild idea and MAY be unfeasable but hey it's something different. How about a HEAVILLY loadout restricted ( I'm talking pure bombs only - no rockets or cluster munitions ) IL2 as a Fairy battle?

I like your thinking mate - the IL2M, 1942 first series with default skin and RAF markings looks pretty reasonable as a Fairey Battle IMO. Might be a bit overqualified in the performance department but shhhhh.... I won't say anything if you don't ;)

Boemher
07-03-2007, 13:26
Imo the Kate is a better subsititute for the Battle. Paper thin, crap rear gunner crap speed crap bomb load.

The IL2 will win Dunkirk if its there lol

MajorDamage
07-03-2007, 13:54
Darn it I knew you were going to say that :D

You're right though, the Kate is a better choice in terms of it's capabilities. Doubt anyone will fly it though, it's got a very weird FM and you can't trim it. Might as well stick it in there anyway - there are some fake Fairey Battle skins out there for the B5N2.

Boemher
07-03-2007, 14:06
If we want a flyable Battle how about a Tempest? We could lock the rockets on it and at least its British :rolleyes:

Firelok
07-03-2007, 14:30
THis is getting crazy, B5N2.? What on earth is wrong with the Hurri/Blenheim combo? Call me an ol traditionalist but these planes were actually there. Chucking more exotic standi-ins at it isn't the way to go TBO. Way way back in the dawn of this map evolution, when it was just an idea someone said H'mm bit short of planetypes for this one Hurricanes/AI Blenheims for RED 109E4/Ju87 for BLUE and really that's where the fun is, Emil vs Hurri's is a good match-up, Ju87 dive bombing, great fun and for me the challenge of low-level bombing in an underpowered, undergunned AI plane is never something I can resist, ever.:)

Kat
07-03-2007, 14:39
If we want a flyable Battle how about a Tempest? We could lock the rockets on it and at least its British :rolleyes:

Cheeky...

IL2 may not be the perfect one, was the first thing that came to mind, although with carefull setting of targets I'm sure it's feasable.

I was basically looking for a non-AI option for bomber. the IIA will be fighter only, and was going to put the Blenheim in too but would be nice to have a cockpitted Alternative and the IL2 was the closest I could find.

Although rear gunnerless I was thinking about the earliest possible model but your probably right the cannon will be too unbalancing even with a targets/flak combination that's aimed at making multiple passes dangerous.

Kat
07-03-2007, 14:42
THis is getting crazy, B5N2.? What on earth is wrong with the Hurri/Blenheim combo? Call me an ol traditionalist but these planes were actually there. Chucking more exotic standi-ins at it isn't the way to go TBO. Way way back in the dawn of this map evolution, when it was just an idea someone said H'mm bit short of planetypes for this one Hurricanes/AI Blenheims for RED 109E4/Ju87 for BLUE and really that's where the fun is, Emil vs Hurri's is a good match-up, Ju87 dive bombing, great fun and for me the challenge of low-level bombing in an underpowered, undergunned AI plane is never something I can resist, ever.:)


Mmmm yeah, as I say was going to put the Blenheim in should I give red's a ground attack target just fancied a cockpit flyable for those who don't like AI planes... that said people seem ok on aegean so should be fine.

Ju87/109E4 (He111 H2 too? )
vs
Hurricane/Blenheim (I and IIb or just IIb?)

Chatanooga
07-03-2007, 14:53
If you are going to give Red a ground target, why not allow the Hurri's to take bombs?

Kat
07-03-2007, 14:58
If you are going to give Red a ground target, why not allow the Hurri's to take bombs?

Cos they never did ground pound in 1940 plus they are the only red fighter, ideally I'd like a proper MKI (why on earth we havn't got a 1940 MKI god only knows given all it needs is a new engine).

Algorex
07-03-2007, 15:05
Cos they never did ground pound in 1940 plus they are the only red fighter, ideally I'd like a proper MKI (why on earth we havn't got a 1940 MKI god only knows given all it needs is a new engine).

Sssh you'll wake up the tempest goblin with those engine requests

The MK I we have is the one that was delivered to FAF early 1940, which is also why it's listed as an axis plane. And oleg won't give you a proper BoB spec plane because he want you to buy the new game next christmas ;)