PDA

View Full Version : Force Z - but with HMS Victorious



Boemher
23-03-2007, 14:19
A map could be made where the Prince of Wales and Repulse are escorted by a carrier (or 2) as they should have been historically with Sea Hurricanes (MK Is). The Japanese aircraft involved were Nells and Bettys, the Nells level bombing and the Bettys Torpedo bombing.

Obviously for playability we might need to have the Zero included in limited numbers but with the recent trend on UKD2 of massed bomber formations it is possible to have just the bombers for Blue team and the Fighters for Red team. This plane set would allow the bomber pilots a fair chance if they stuck together .

Chatanooga
23-03-2007, 14:28
I have been slowly working on a map with a similar plane set.

Battle of Ceylon

Hurri IIb's

vs

Zeros
Vals


Historically accurate, I'm just not sure that it will work from a balance point of view. I may add the Martlets and or Kates, that could in theory have been present, will see.

a bit more info in this (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=13207&highlight=ceylon) thread.

Kat
23-03-2007, 14:40
I don't believe they would have been Hurricanes at all.

Martlets where the only single engined/seat Fighters the Navy had in 1941 ( Fleet Hurricanes where IIC conversions and didn't occur until 1942, MKI conversions where CAM hurricanes). So your looking at Martlets ( which have the benefit of tailhooks ) rather than Hurricanes. Hasten to add I'm not 100% sure the Martlets where on fleet carriers at the time as that early in the war most RN fighters where twin seaters.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 14:42
Been reading more about the sinking of Force Z, there were actually Zeros in the sky that day but on seeing there was no enemy fighters they bogged off home. I dont know how reliable the source is however.

Red fighters were Buffalos who theoretically could have made it to ships but there was a string of muck ups.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 14:43
I don't believe they would have been Hurricanes at all.

Martlets where the only single engined/seat Fighters the Navy had in 1941 ( Fleet Hurricanes where IIC conversions and didn't occur until 1942, MKI conversions where CAM hurricanes). So your looking at Martlets ( which have the benefit of tailhooks ) rather than Hurricanes. Hasten to add I'm not 100% sure the Martlets where on fleet carriers at the time as that early in the war most RN fighters where twin seaters.

Fairey Fulmar is close to Hurricane Mk I, even if not present Hurricane was to supplant that, sorry for not stating hat initially. Even late in the war RN designed fighters were 2 seater - Fairey Firefly. Only US craft and RAF converts were single seaters.

Oh and if we are being historically accurate it was the Indomitable and not the Victorious that was earmarked for the job, but ran aground and the op went ahead anyway.

edit

been digging around and have found these pics dated 1941, I spy a Sea Hurrc'n and even an inferior Spitfire, I think Kat you have mis read the entry date for the Sea Hurricane IC or something like that because sources I have read say Mid 1941.

"Oldest airworthy Hawker Hurricane in the world. Sea Hurricane Z7015 is owned and operated by the Shuttleworth Trust. Orginally built as a Mk1, after service with the RAF it was converted for Naval use with the addition of an arrestor hook. The aircraft flew with No 880 Squadron Fleet Air Arm during 1941 but when the squadron embarked on HMS Indomitable Z7015 was absent. Her individual squadro letter is unknown, so when the "7" code number was applied to the restored aircraft the code letter 'L' was added in honour of David Lee (deputy Director, as was, IWM Duxford)contribution."

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/Eagle_Indomitable_Victorious_maltac.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/WNBR_45-45_mk1_Indomitable_pic.jpg

Firelok
23-03-2007, 15:26
THere are actually other planes than the hurricane you know guys.
Frankly the Hurricane again and again is boring the pants off've me and we will get a reputation for being a 'hurricanes only' server. I know about chata's closely researched Battle of Ceylon that he's spending a lot of time on. But even so we've had a bit of a Hurricane season lately are you lot not a bit bored by this?

Boemher
23-03-2007, 15:38
Its tough coming up with map ideas when basically Britain has only 2 early war fighters! ;) If you want semi Historical maps with any British involvement then thats what you get. There were over 14,000 of the blighters produced too so they are going to spring up here and there.

Better get on the phone to Oleg and ask for a Fulmar and a Skua, a Typhoon, a Whirlwind, a Defiant and while your there ask him for a Tempest V 11lb too

Kat
23-03-2007, 17:53
Well the Martlet was in service in this time, no reason not to use it.

Regarding the Sea Hurricane, done a bit more research.

Jan 1941 was the time the order was placed for converted hurricanes. The reason I suspect that Wikipedia has them as used on MAC ships is they often didn't have hangers ( and thus lifts ) so the lack of folding wings wasn't a problem. Your picture would seem to indicate the odd one found it's way onto a Fleet carrier but I would have said that I don't think it was common practice and that if any single seaters where in use it would, primarally, have been Martlets on conventional carriers due to their wing folder and arrester hooks.

MajorDamage
23-03-2007, 18:01
I think this is best covered by Chattanooga and his Ceylon map. No need to go inventing what-ifs when there's a similar real event to base a scenario on.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 19:09
But Chattas map has no Ki 21 or Betty for T}{OR and me to fly :confused:

Boemher
23-03-2007, 19:11
I don't believe they would have been Hurricanes at all.

Martlets where the only single engined/seat Fighters the Navy had in 1941 ( Fleet Hurricanes where IIC conversions and didn't occur until 1942, MKI conversions where CAM hurricanes). So your looking at Martlets ( which have the benefit of tailhooks ) rather than Hurricanes. Hasten to add I'm not 100% sure the Martlets where on fleet carriers at the time as that early in the war most RN fighters where twin seaters.

Why dont you believe it ? I posted a quote taken from the Sea Hurricane squadron that was on the Indomitable! Its not a case of believeing its a case of reading. You may think it better to have Martlets there but the fact of the matter is that Sea Hurricanes were used in 1941, on the Indomitable and had she have sailed with Force Z the Sea Hurricanes would have been there.

"Oldest airworthy Hawker Hurricane in the world. Sea Hurricane Z7015 is owned and operated by the Shuttleworth Trust. Orginally built as a Mk1, after service with the RAF it was converted for Naval use with the addition of an arrestor hook. The aircraft flew with No 880 Squadron Fleet Air Arm during 1941 but when the squadron embarked on HMS Indomitable Z7015 was absent. Her individual squadro letter is unknown, so when the "7" code number was applied to the restored aircraft the code letter 'L' was added in honour of David Lee (deputy Director, as was, IWM Duxford)contribution."


Here is an aircraft list for sister ship HMS Victorious - its quite interesting to note that She embarked Seafires before Martlets

Aircraft
Fairey Swordfish

Three-seat torpedo-bomber reconnaissance biplane
Squadrons: 825 (May to June 1941) : 820 (June 1941)
Fairey Fulmar

Two-seat fighter
Squadrons: 800 (May to June 1941) : 809 (January to November 1942)
Hawker Sea Hurricane

Single-seat fighter converted from Hawker Hurricane
Squadron: 885 (June to August 1942)
Fairey Albacore

Three-seat torpedo-bomber biplane
Squadrons: 827 (July to August 1941) : 828 (July to August 1941) : 820 (July 1941 to January 1942) : 817 (August 1941 to November 1942) : 832 (August 1941 to December 1942)
Supermarine Seafire

Single-seat fighter converted from the Spitfire
Squadron: 884 (July to November 1942)
Fairey Barracuda

Three-seat torpedo- and dive-bomber
Squadrons: 827 (March to April 1944) : 829 (March to July 1944) : 831 (March to August 1944) : 822 (September 1944)
Grumman Martlet (Wildcat)

Single-seat fighter
Squadrons: 896 (September 1942 to September 1943) : 882 (October 1942 to September 1943) : 898 (October 1942 to October 1943)

"Hawker converted a repaired Hurricane in January 1941 and the decision was made to go ahead with full production shortly afterwards. Refurbished ex RAF Hurricane Mk Is were fitted with catapult launch points, an arrestor hook and other associated naval equipment by General Aircraft Ltd. No wing folding capability, typical of carrier borne aircraft was installed. The Sea Hurricane Mk IA and B were armed with eight machine guns and were powered by the Merlin III."

In November 1941 Indomitable's aircraft complement was:
9 Sea Hurricane I's
12 Fairey Fulmars (2 seater, 8 x .303in guns, bit like a fighter version of the Fairey Battle bomber)
24 Fairey Albacore torpedo bombers (successor to Swordfish, biplane, enclosed cockpit, fixed landing gear, hardly faster than Swordfish).


No Martlets on Indomitable in 1941

Whirlinmerlin
23-03-2007, 19:13
THere are actually other planes than the hurricane you know guys.
Frankly the Hurricane again and again is boring the pants off've me and we will get a reputation for being a 'hurricanes only' server. I know about chata's closely researched Battle of Ceylon that he's spending a lot of time on. But even so we've had a bit of a Hurricane season lately are you lot not a bit bored by this?

Heratic, I'm off to gather kindling. :D

Actually I for one could go for more Martlet action.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 19:20
Martlet is on quite a few maps, not as many as Hurricane obviously but they simply were not produced in as many numbers and they didnt see action as early or in as many theatres as the old Hurri did.

Also a map where Blues aircraft are all bombers, the Martlets 0.50s would threaten to chew up the bombers much more easily than the Hurricanes machine guns would. As for this map being a no goer thats ok by me, but its nearest equivalent would be Kat's Singpore (ironically enough) rather than Chattas map imo

Kat
23-03-2007, 19:45
I stand corrected, surprised they had so many but stand corrected. Bet it was a pain to operate them given they didn't have folding wings.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 20:51
Kat, your initail instincts made sense - even chronologically. It was just something in the back of my mind that made me think something was fishy about it. I am a real Naval warfare buff, as much as I am a Plane buff too so I had to get to the bottom of it :) We all know how these things liek getting the proper aircraft where there most needed go pear shaped during war. I for one was absolutely shocked that the Seafire made it on to the decks of Victorious before the Martlet.

Yellow 2
23-03-2007, 22:10
The allied aircraft involved with the sinking of Force Z were Buffalos who arrived just as POW rolled over and sank. I've never read of the Japanese bombers having a fighter escort but with the range of the Zero I suppose it is possible.

Boemher
23-03-2007, 22:57
The Zeros werent there but apparently they could have been if needed, if the Japanese knew a carrier was going to accompany Force Z chances are a few would have accompanied the bombers.