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Boemher
02-04-2007, 12:20
I was watching this map from stats page yesterday and there seemed to be 20/25 Reds flying for the duration of the map. Making teams 2 to 1 or worse. Is there anything we can do to prevent this map from being poorly balanced. Every time I play it Blues get a kicking with lots of Spitfire IX 25lbs directly over their base and Blue targets getting taken out by one or two P38s while the other 20 Reds make life intolerable for the Blue team.

I have seen it won by Blue but this is normally when Hyperion or Ovod are doing the dirty work.

Maybe we could make the unpopular move of moving bases further apart again, and heavily limiting the Spitfire IX 25lb ?

Algorex
02-04-2007, 14:15
Don't worry, it just the stats page being erradic, you can spot the "ghosts" by looking at the planes they're "flying". Like now on anapa there's arados, ki-27 and a-20cs. Also some names appear twice.

It's probably something related to SC and needs attention from the server guru (scrappy) :)

Firelok
02-04-2007, 15:06
No Spit IX 25Lbs at all would be the way to go I think. I mean the basic IXe is a damned good aircraft but it doesnt hold all the cards compared to the blue aircraft available on this map like the 25lbs boost had.
I tried last year to use a version of this map where the bases where widely separated but there was critcism of this from certain quarters, despite the fact that this separation was similar to that on the Bulge map. (Bulge is exactly the same dimensions and layout as Ardennes but it's snowy.)
The idea behind Ardennes is great (attacking V1 sites) and I like the V1's buzzing around, flying blue is really hard work on this one even without the very commonly imbalanced teams.
To enjoy blue here you need to be an expert with the late war Wuftlaffe aircraft, hordes of Spit IX 25lbs hovering over Blue base is very common.

irish
02-04-2007, 15:06
Don't worry, it just the stats page being erradic, you can spot the "ghosts" by looking at the planes they're "flying". Like now on anapa there's arados, ki-27 and a-20cs. Also some names appear twice.

It's probably something related to SC and needs attention from the server guru (scrappy) :)


I've seen this myself.

Last night at 8:00pm EST, SC said their was 25 people flying UK2....when i joined the server was empty:(

MajorDamage
02-04-2007, 19:03
There's been an issue with reds camping the blue base ever since the 25lb Spit and the Tempest got added. I agree that the bases could do with being further apart - the problem is that these planes are fast and need room to extend. Firelok, I'd be interested in seeing the alternative version you tried.

Firelok
02-04-2007, 19:58
THe last time it got altered a lot.....

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=11149

NS-IceFire
03-04-2007, 02:17
The bases are much further apart than before but there is still the occasional basecamping expo. Perhaps the +25lb is a bit much? Honestly the Tempest is still the best on the map or tied with the D-9 but you don't see nearly as many of them. Its probably the +25's climb rate more than anything and the 109K-4 guys never climb to give the D-9 guys a chance to mix it up and blast some Spitfires.

If you replace the +25 then the IXe and IXe clipped would be ideal. The only real problem is the "close quarters" fighting that goes on. It favours the Spitfire over the FW190 just because of the sheer numbers involved and the better climb performance.

I would say that its still total hell for anyone on a ground attack sortie. The fighter bombers have a heck of a time getting to target...thats not necessarily bad. Some people want absolute chaos and this map gives it to them in a fairly tight map. Fighting style and plane type probably need to be adjusted on an individual level to make it work.

Firelok
03-04-2007, 08:36
Just to clarify things this is how it all stands at the moment...

RED
P-38L_Late
P-47D
P-51D-5NT
P-51D-20NA
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
SpitfireMkIX25lbs
TempestMkV
BLUE
Bf-109G-10
Bf-109G-14
Fw-190A-8
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
Fw-190F-8
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109K-4

I think we could have a much 'leaner' planeset than this...Like this...

RED
P-38L_Late
P-47D
P-51D-5NT
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
TempestMkV
BLUE
Bf-109G-10
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
Fw-190F-8
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109K-4

Boemher
03-04-2007, 11:06
RED
P-38L_Late
P-47D
P-51D-5NT
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
TempestMkV
BLUE
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
Fw-190F-8
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109K-4

Further trimmed. If sadists insist on flying the Bf 109 or Spitfire at this late stage of the war then so be it but why should they be given lots of choice? Clipped Spit is by far the most suitable variant for late war Europan tactical sweeps and Bf 109 K4 is the 'god' of 109s (joke is it isnt that good) G6A/S is only there for the 20mm option imo.

Perhaps very limited number of Arados for Blue team ? This would serve to draw Red fighters away from Blue base to try and catch the blighters and to make the race to destroy the targets that bit more competitive.

MajorDamage
03-04-2007, 11:07
Looks like a better planeset to me.

EDIT: didn't see Boemher's post when I posted this. I like the further trimmed planeset too. The Arado idea is intriguing, not sure how it'd work on this tight a map though.

Gordano
03-04-2007, 11:16
I have no problems with getting rid of the 25lb spit and going with your reduced plane set.

I wasn't too keen on the version with the altered bases when it was tried, as personally I really enjoy the hectic combat feel of the current and original version, I found the altered version to be too similar to Bulge due to the distances involved. The close proximity of bases and the cloud height really makes for some good fights.

We do get a bit of base camping on that map, so I don't know whether we have the option of adding a second base for each team to enable fighters to be scrambled etc. in the event of a camper invasion? I'm trying to visualize the map here at work, but would the southern base used on the Italy map be an option for red? I'm not sure about blue though, but have a feeling there is a similar option for them?

Algorex
03-04-2007, 11:42
The map is 6x4 with airfields in A4 (two here), A1, C4, F1-4. Map lacks airfields in the bastogne area around CD1 which would be a good counterpart for the airfield in C4, thus forming a nice 4x4 area with airfield in every corner.

Currently Ardennes is using the F1 and F4 airfields in the eastern end of the map. Bulge uses the northern airfields in A4 and F3,F4.

I also like the new planeset and i hope it'll lead to more fighter-bombing and high speed fights.

MajorDamage
03-04-2007, 12:20
I like the idea of providing alternative bases in case of base camping. Given the choice I would always take off from a further base rather than be in the thick of it at 0 altitude!

Boemher
03-04-2007, 13:23
I have never been base camped when flying Red, I have been met with Fw 190 D9s at 4000m in the grid immediately to the North of the Red base but thats the side effect of having a map where the combat is compressed in to one or two grids.

The Western base on the Blue sides of the line is located far enough away but not too far to be a viable alternative base. Maybe some thought could go in to aircraft flyable at each base - would it be better to have the Bf 109 and Spitfire located further away from the action? Or perhaps the D9 and Tempest/P51 ect

Firelok
04-04-2007, 11:36
Whilst an alternative airfield is easily added for blues to the west of their current one (in fact all the ground equipment is still present) this presents the problem of it being right on the doorstep of reds targets. The current single red airfield is as far south as possible (there aren't anymore airfields in this corner of the map) Red would have to use a base far off to the west.

As a possibilty could we use this map with the current airfields in the east unchanged but use another pair of airfields mirroring these off to the west.

This is an option, we would still have the airfield proximity that seems to be a required part of the character of this map but there would be an alternative takeoff point for both sides to the west, with the same Blue in the North/Red in the South proximity.

As for the planes, Poor old Clostermann was attacking V1 sites like these in a SpitLFVb with SpitIXc's as top cover but if we really wanted to 'go historic' with this theres a lot of stuff that would get the heave-ho. A Red in the west, Blue in the east split would make more sense from the perspective of where the actual battle-lines where (scale excluded)

If I was going to be properly heretical I would say take the idea (V1 sites) and the planeset and redo it all on another map and while we are at it redo Bulge to make it more like the Bodenplatte operation maybe.

Sonko
04-04-2007, 13:41
I like the setup of the map as it is now with the targets etc. The new planeset looks ok to me, maybe a Spitfire without clipped wings would be okay too.
I don't think it is necessary to add a second base for any of the parties, if anyone experiences problem of being intercepted right after take-off he went towards the border too early. Going west for some minutes after take-off was never a mistake for me.

So let us test the map with the reduced planeset first before making radical changes to the setting.

Algorex
04-04-2007, 16:23
If I was going to be properly heretical I would say take the idea (V1 sites) and the planeset and redo it all on another map and while we are at it redo Bulge to make it more like the Bodenplatte operation maybe.

Me likes.

Boemher
07-08-2007, 14:31
I know this map is gone but I brought it up because Ardennes was seen as an example of a slaughter fest for the Blue team. Last time I flew Blue on this map in a D9 myelf and THOR hammered the Red team. I got 5 Spitfires in one 20 min sortie iirc before landing to fly a Tempest.

I think there is a general feeling that Blues are outclassed late war and it has gotten out of hand. Yesterday Bulge came on and I had to fly Blue due to teams, missing out on the Tempest which broke my heart. Despite Blue team being 5 vs 11 at one stage of the map with me being the only fighter aircraft vs 11 Red fighters (the other 4 Blues were in twins) at one point, Blues held their own and outscored Red 2 to 1 in aerial kills and over 2 to 1 in ground objects destroyed.

http://il2hq.com/stats_uk2/il2sc_stat/index.php?navigation=map/4/index.html

There were good pilots on Red including Nightshifter and ForkTail and a few other regulars on comms. While Sonko flew a D9 for Blue and then was replaced by me as he left around mid way through the map as I arrived.

The Dora 44 absolutely pwnzors any other piston engined plane including the Tempest, Sonko and I, at seperate intervals, got 5 kills each in one sortie while fighting often outnumbered and on our own.

I just wish people would fly it. If large numbers of people continue to ignore it and choose Late Bf 109s these maps will remain outwardly to observers one sided - through no fault of the plane set available - but entirely through the players fault. This situation is mirrored on DDay and other maps.

Im not suggesting banning the Bf 109 or anything like that, just emphasising that the planes to win a Late war map are present on Blue it is the players who decide not to fly them. Its gotten to the stage where people expect an easy ride flying on either Blue or Red and if it doesnt happen its the fault of the map maker or the plane set. Apart from a very few examples its entirely down to team work and patience.

Algorex
07-08-2007, 15:38
Ardennes and Bulge are different maps,

Bulge is the winter one with bases far away from each other and north to south border.

Ardennes, is no longer in the cycle as it's been replaced by Antwerp, was the "smaller" summer map with west to east border and the bases close to each other at the eastern end on the map.

Boemher
07-08-2007, 15:56
Ardennes and Bulge are different maps,

Bulge is the winter one with bases far away from each other and north to south border.

Ardennes, is no longer in the cycle as it's been replaced by Antwerp, was the "smaller" summer map with west to east border and the bases close to each other at the eastern end on the map.

I said this:


I know this map is gone but I brought it up because Ardennes was seen as an example of a slaughter fest for the Blue team. Last time I flew Blue on this map in a D9 myelf and THOR hammered the Red team. I got 5 Spitfires in one 20 min sortie iirc before landing to fly a Tempest.


and this:


Yesterday Bulge came on and I had to fly Blue due to teams, missing out on the Tempest which broke my heart.

because of this:


Hurray!

Recently played the Ardennes V1 Hunt map for Blue and was sick. I always had an idea of what was wrong with that map (ie: small map, High performance AC), but the fact was the Blues were in a non-stop bind. Fly the 109 and be generally outclassed or fly a 190 variant and get B'n'Zed by Spits/P51's before you could reach any good altitude.

and this:


noticed Reds have handed another thorough thrashing to blues. This seems to happen on every late war western front map we have, I mean when do blues ever do well in these environments?

I was forced to fly blue on Bulge the other day, only option was to run for the targets hammer them and finish the map.

I posted it here because it is a late war map which got shelved partly due to Blues always getting hammered.

Algorex
07-08-2007, 16:08
What made Ardennes different from any other late war western map was the short filight distance, which greatly favored the usual flock of spitfire IXs. Fight dynamics on the other maps is different as even the FW-190As can get to altitude without much circling before reaching the front lines/target areas.

Sonko
07-08-2007, 16:24
On the Ardennes map blues had the chance to climb with the nose directed west to avoid approaching the frontlines too early, at least it worked well for me.

On the Bulge map there is enough room to approach the frontlines while climbing without the danger of getting caught by some quick Spitfire.

I think I know why so many people refuse to fly the 190 on late war maps.
Most people joining on UKD join alone, without grabbing a wingman.
Spitfires can do very good on their own, 109's only a little bit worse.
It is boring to fly the 190 without a wingman because you're always running if you don't want to get shot down.
So nearly everyone on blue team takes the 109, although it is uncontrollable at high speeds, unfortunately high speeds are standard on late war maps.

The result is well known, blues are getting smashed.

Boemher
07-08-2007, 16:31
The wider issue and the reason I dug up this thread so as not to further disturb other current maps is : Why do Blues get hammered on DDay, Bocage and normally on Rhur and Bulge?

There is no real reason. Even with the Spitfire IX 25lb on Ardennes Blues still could have countered if they'd collectively pulled the finger out. THOR doesnt even fly the D9 as he is a P51 fanatic yet he couldnt stop commenting about how easily it out performed the P51s and Spitfires we were fighting against. I used to remember it was the Red side that got hammered repeatedly on late war maps but now the shoe is on the other foot and people are asking why.

All you ever needed to do on Ardennes was fly North or East and off map until you had altitude. Kind of like on any early/mid Eastern front map when faced with I-16s or La5s. People have just stopped doing that.

Boemher
07-08-2007, 16:33
On the Ardennes map blues had the chance to climb with the nose directed west to avoid approaching the frontlines too early, at least it worked well for me.


+1

The Fw 190 has always required patience but now most of the patient players have migrated to Red leaving Blues up sh1t creek without a paddle, because you can get away with flying at 100m to target and back in a Spitfire because you can out turn anything but in a Bf 109 or Fw 190 you really need to have the initiative.

irish
07-08-2007, 16:42
Just to add some flavor to Boehmer's initial comments....late at night I've been flying WarClouds. Over there it is always Western Front 1944/1945 locked/closed pit (that means the 190 pilots have to deal with "The Bar"). Regardless, Blue often whips Red. Want to know why?

1) Blue pilots fly more 190's (A8, A9, D9 '44) and they fly them to their strengths. That means they take the time to climb to 20-30,000ft, avoid turn fighting and have enough sense to skeddadle when the situation goes sour for them. I've become messianic about flying the P47. You can always find a happening fight at 7k

2) There are lots of pilots on comms (for both sides). Comms are seperate and kept clean. The chit-chat stops once people start engaging.

3) Flying in a group is not an option...it's a necessity. The Blue Team fly those 190's in virtual packs. Furthermore, If you are not on comms most people won't bother flying with you. Being alone at 3k or below equals a quick death.


I bring all this up not to denegrate UKded*, but to point out that disciplined and co-ordinated use of the 190's (of which I see at WC's) is the way to go for a Blue pilot in 1944/45.


*Note: IMO UKded are the best servers overall...better people and more variety mean a lot to me

*Edit* Geeze, by the time it took me to organize my thoughts both Boehmer and Sonko had pretty much summed them up. Huzzah!

Boemher
07-08-2007, 16:47
Irish it used to be like that on UKD but most of the guys who flew in that manner have migrated to other servers or to other planes.

Schlumberger - one of the top Fw guys on warclouds used to be a Syndicate member here.

T}{OR
07-08-2007, 16:49
I agree to what Boemher said above.

Just to add to this discussion that P-51D-20NA we have in game is an early '44 version and shouldn't be confronted with late 44 Doras and Doras at all, but Antons. They are just too powerfull.

And yeah I'm P-51 Fanatic same as Boemher is for Tempest. :)

EDIT: Btw. I think UKD servers beat Warclouds bigtime. Otherwise I wouldn't join the supporters. ;)

Zorin
07-08-2007, 16:52
I agree to what Boemher said above.

Just to add to this discussion that P-51D-20NA we have in game is an early '44 version and shouldn't be confronted with late 44 Doras and Doras at all, but Antons. They are just too powerfull.

And yeah I'm P-51 Fanatic same as Boemher is for Tempest. :)

EDIT: Btw. I think UKD servers beat Warclouds bigtime. Otherwise I wouldn't join the supporters. ;)

And I shot both of you, Boemher in a Tempest and you in a P51, in a single DF with the D9 :D

Boemher
07-08-2007, 16:53
Thats the Joke THOR, the P51 D, P38 L Late and the Tempest V we have in IL2 are all low boost June 44 variants. Their correct opponents are Fw 190 A8s and Bf 109 G14s not Bf 109 K4s and Fw 190 D9s. But IL2 is screwy and plane balance is all about getting what works and sticking with it even if it means adding or subtracting a plane here or there.

But the Fw 190 D9 44 in IL2 hits 451 mph at 5,500 metres, while being faster than either the P 51 or Tempest V at sea level and out climbing them at all heights - but how many pilots realise this and use it to its strengths?

irish
07-08-2007, 17:00
Irish it used to be like that on UKD but most of the guys who flew in that manner have migrated to other servers or to other planes.

Schlumberger - one of the top Fw guys on warclouds used to be a Syndicate member here.

Had the honor of getting smoked off the planet by Schlumberger several night s ago. Scary pilot:mp5: :eek:

Don't get me wrong....there are many people on WC's who do the Spits/109 matchup at tree top level (especially on the weekends). They also (as has been mentioned) tend to be the guys flying lone wolf w/o comms

In addition, the sheer variety of maps presented on UKD means that we are often flying early war stuff that can't handle high alt fighting. I'm speaking purely about the late war Western Front matchups here (Bocage, D-Day, Ardennes, Antwerp and the like)

Algorex
07-08-2007, 17:01
I agree with all of you, but the fact remains while we here on the forums know this stuff, i'd argue that at least 50% of the guys on the servers have never seen these forums, couldn't care less about some TS thingie or fly away from the fight to get advantage.

We have the patience and the tactics to use the energy fighters at their best and we can always count on the other guy on TS to save our behinds when this get messy, but all we really do is to advertise the forums, teamspeak, energy fighting and openmindedness (is that a word?)

Only solution is that we ourselfs start flying on blue constantly, always in fighters, always at altitude keeping our heads cool.

irish
07-08-2007, 17:03
I agree to what Boemher said above.

Just to add to this discussion that P-51D-20NA we have in game is an early '44 version and shouldn't be confronted with late 44 Doras and Doras at all, but Antons. They are just too powerfull.

And yeah I'm P-51 Fanatic same as Boemher is for Tempest. :)

EDIT: Btw. I think UKD servers beat Warclouds bigtime. Otherwise I wouldn't join the supporters. ;)

Oh, there is plenty right with UKded...large co-ordinated bomber runs, variety, historic maps, better admin, skin DL's....this could go on:)

irish
07-08-2007, 17:10
I agree with all of you, but the fact remains while we here on the forums know this stuff, i'd argue that at least 50% of the guys on the servers have never seen these forums, couldn't care less about some TS thingie or fly away from the fight to get advantage.

We have the patience and the tactics to use the energy fighters at their best and we can always count on the other guy on TS to save our behinds when this get messy, but all we really do is to advertise the forums, teamspeak, energy fighting and openmindedness (is that a word?)

Only solution is that we ourselfs start flying on blue constantly, always in fighters, always at altitude keeping our heads cool.

Sums this all up perfect, AG!
:D

But, it's going to be hard to co-ordinate that when there are teams to be evened out.

Firelok
07-08-2007, 17:12
Only solution is that we ourselfs start flying on blue constantly, always in fighters, always at altitude keeping our heads cool.

I agree with this, the allies have benefitted more of latest patch new planes than the Axis, latest Axis planes is the Ta152C.
A lot of these maps recently the 'TS' choice is often to fly reds, P51s,Tempests and SpitIXs but we have had some belting times mustering en-masse in FW190s.
Needs to be done, the poor old Dora getting forgot becasue of all those shiny new Tempests:D