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View Full Version : Spring Shake-Up for UKDed2



Firelok
20-04-2007, 10:25
I thought it was about time we had a general review and revision where neccessary of UKDed2's map cycle. THe current updated cycle is in the UK2maplist thread, with the most recent changes added (Rhzev has replaced Sevastopol, Italy and Apeninnes replaced with Apennines2, Normandy has been removed.)
There are a few maps that are great scenarios and planesets but maybe have got a little old and overplayed or need a rethink. My thoughts on maps that might need looking at are as follows.

Balta,DDay,Solomons,Novgorod,Channel42,Ardennes,Tunis.

Please post up your thoughts, more specific the better about any of our maps. Plus as Happy has said elsewhere making maps isn't rocket science and I would always encourage our members to 'see things from the other side' and add some creations to our growing list of great content.

Algorex
20-04-2007, 10:42
On the subject of Ardennes, you were talking about revamping it and bulge. I think the idea of replacing bulge with bottenplatte mission was excellent and ardennes is intresting as just with all the V1 stuff.

As ardennes go you could alter the layout a bit by moving the blue base to the C4 concrete field. We know from italy map that the distances from there to the current red base are fine. This of course means some work on the targets as well since D4 is so close to the airfield.

I'd like to add italy and kotka into this list of intress.

And my old idea of turning burma43 in to beaufighter/betty maritime strike thing. :rolleyes:

NS-IceFire
20-04-2007, 23:22
Sounds fine to me. Bulge can be replaced...its one of my older ones. But it would be nice to have a proper winter West front map somewhere :)

Boddenplatte might fit the bill. I think someone else should probably do it...I'm sort of dead on ideas at the moment.

Zorin
21-04-2007, 00:23
I guess Libau and Vadso won't be missed.

Firelok
23-04-2007, 12:18
I guess Libau and Vadso won't be missed.

I think your being unneccessarily harsh on yourself here mate. Vadso produces some great fights from Wildcats vs 109Fs, honestly if we took it off people would be suprised.

As for Ardennes, there are folks who like it as it is, shifting blues to the concrete base does muck with the targets near there, unless it was totally reworked.

DDay, one of the problems is Blues two airbases, the southern Caen one is closer to the Red base than the targets over the Omaha beaches. The other blue base is hardly used to the west, I wonder what this would play like if all of the blue planes came from this western base?

irish
23-04-2007, 12:25
Just some nitpicking from me re historic accuracy (sp?)

.....Monte Casino's date is wrong. There is no way it can be set in May 1943 as the Allies were still in Tunisia massing for Husky. Try May 1944 ;)

Firelok
23-04-2007, 14:39
Just some nitpicking from me re historic accuracy (sp?)

.....Monte Casino's date is wrong. There is no way it can be set in May 1943 as the Allies were still in Tunisia massing for Husky. Try May 1944 ;)

Delightfully easy to fix this one:D

irish
23-04-2007, 15:12
Novgorod: Is there any way we can move the bases farther apart? Or how about shifting the targets for both sides farther south? The 1944 planeset is pretty high performance....it doesn't take long before you are on top of the enemy base

LeadSucker
23-04-2007, 20:12
Novgorod: Is there any way we can move the bases farther apart? Or how about shifting the targets for both sides farther south? The 1944 planeset is pretty high performance....it doesn't take long before you are on top of the enemy base
Its a fun map though... Lots of dogfighting but seldom above bases.

Its old but still great fun. I like wintermaps and they are great for framerates ;).

Sonko
23-04-2007, 22:04
...and they are great for framerates ;).

Somehow not on my computer, seems like the more detailed snowy trees are not being liked by my machine...

Zorin
24-04-2007, 00:51
I think your being unneccessarily harsh on yourself here mate. Vadso produces some great fights from Wildcats vs 109Fs, honestly if we took it off people would be suprised.

Rgr, but noone will miss Libau, right? Planeset is good, would only need a different map.

irish
24-04-2007, 00:59
Libau's planeset is good (ok, i admit i hate flying against the Dornier fighter)....however, the sheer ammount of objcts plus the water renders me into lag-ville. Many nasty pauses on my end.

No big deal. I just can't get near the targets:(

Zorin
24-04-2007, 01:08
No, no, it is absolutely fine with me. There is no gain in claiming it to be otherwise. It is just a map which failed to succeed. Partially caused by me showing off with that harbor I have to admit. :o

NS-IceFire
24-04-2007, 03:20
Yeah I think its probably time to do something different with that one. I did love the Do-335 in the end...brilliant fighter...we need that one on more maps where it can fit in.

Firelok
24-04-2007, 10:59
Rgr, but noone will miss Libau, right? Planeset is good, would only need a different map.

Well I know we have had difference of opinion about it months ago but I agree with this, sometimes the 'geography' of map (positions of airbases,flightroutes etc) prevents it being what it should be. As a personal example shifting the planeset of Apennines to an map with a more suitable layout really has seemed to release the potential it had. Maybe we could use a different area of the Online_Kurland map to locate this planeset?

Sonko
24-04-2007, 17:22
Sounds good especially because there is no anti-framerate-city in the marked area iirc. Though, I like the target for blues (the stuff along the road).

System-M-
24-04-2007, 19:02
can we have a mix up of the list too make it more interesting what map follows what...

Firelok
25-04-2007, 11:06
too make it more interesting what map follows what...

Really this is a side effect of actually publishing the list. Which overall is a good idea I think. It is possible to do this but it's a large and very boring painstaking task, each map.ini names another one five times and we have 70+ maps.Even one mistake can throw the lot out (which I have done before) we haven't had and map list 'loops' for some time, the last one happened because I added about six new maps at the same time and made one single letter spelling error. Rearranging chunks of the list is slightly more feasable but even then you would still see certain evenings maps the same. Manually checking this would take well over an hour of calling next map on the server too.
So.. in a nutshell it can be done but it's not something I'm going to do:D
Are you volunteering System?:)


There is another alternative to this approach, which is reconfigure all the maps to use ServerCommanders maplist, probably still a fair amount of work but this would allow us to have a more regular reshuffle by editing just one file. It does make adding new maps a bit more hassle though.

Boemher
25-04-2007, 21:44
My take on Ardennes would be to move bases further apart and to get rid of the Spitfire IX 25lb.

Radical yes but this would go a long way towards making a more balanced map. The normal IX is good enough to outfight everything - it doesnt need its speed climb and turn boost that the 25lber brings.

Novograd as it is now is quite enjoyable for me as is Balta. DDay could do with some big changes but I think the map restricts things here. This is probably the hardest to solve given that limitation - the same can be said about Channel 42.

Solomans for me is a classic, simple balanced planeset and has targets that get attacked can ask for more really.

irish
25-04-2007, 22:14
How about adding an airstart for B25's and A20's on D-Day?

T}{OR
25-04-2007, 22:46
How about adding an airstart for B25's and A20's on D-Day?

Excellent idea.

Firelok
26-04-2007, 00:23
How about adding an airstart for B25's and A20's on D-Day?

But the problem with DDay has nothing to do with Reds planes or airbase location at all... it's all problems to do with blues. Great map if you fly reds but it needs to be great for everyone I'm sure you'll agree.

NS-IceFire
26-04-2007, 02:08
Blue's have the impossible target of all of those LC's and the Allied fleet. On top of that the Blue targets are on the same path as the Red targets and the Blue LC attack area is less than 10km from the primary Red target. Which means that Red fighter-bombers are often dive bombing the target then using the speed to surprise the low flying Blue attack aircraft and blasting them before they get a chance.

As much as I love the Tempest...maybe it needs to sit this map out. Its fine at Bocage as the layout is a bit different but maybe that would help along with a re-arranging of the Blue targets to some kind of different configuration.

What happened to the other D-Day maps that were run a couple of years ago. There was a full set of D-Day maps...perhaps one of the others could be pulled out. Or perhaps its time for a new one...as much as I love the red targets and the scenario overall.

Boemher
26-04-2007, 10:35
The problem with leaving the Tempest out is that DDay was its first real operational debut. It was being saved especially for this operation to provide air superiority. Its a bit of a cop out getting rid of it on this map as although on paper its performance is superior it has a lower K/D ratio than any Spitfire IX model.

irish
26-04-2007, 13:20
But the problem with DDay has nothing to do with Reds planes or airbase location at all... it's all problems to do with blues. Great map if you fly reds but it needs to be great for everyone I'm sure you'll agree.

the first problem is base camping on both sides. The next problem is the fact that Blue will never kill it's targets.

Make airstarts for bombers on both sides and cut down on the ammount of shipping Blue has to kill. In reality losing a couple LST's would have been a big deal in the minds of Allied planners.

Or keep the numbers the same, but shift the Axis focus to Sword/Gold/Juno as opposed to the Omaha/Utah approaches. This will decrease flight time for the Axis allowing more regular bombing runs against the Allied fleet. Or you could add E Boat pens at Le Harve as additional targets for the Allies. This will split the Allies concentration of force (ie: everyone takes off and heads west on red side as is right now) and allow the Axis a shot at winning

If the P51 D/NA is there it should be removed (can't remember if its the NA or NT that is on the map) because the NA didn't come into play until mid-summer 44 (after Overlord)

Firelok
26-04-2007, 15:32
Blue's have the impossible target of all of those LC's and the Allied fleet. On top of that the Blue targets are on the same path as the Red targets and the Blue LC attack area is less than 10km from the primary Red target. Which means that Red fighter-bombers are often dive bombing the target then using the speed to surprise the low flying Blue attack aircraft and blasting them before they get a chance.

As much as I love the Tempest...maybe it needs to sit this map out. Its fine at Bocage as the layout is a bit different but maybe that would help along with a re-arranging of the Blue targets to some kind of different configuration.

What happened to the other D-Day maps that were run a couple of years ago. There was a full set of D-Day maps...perhaps one of the others could be pulled out. Or perhaps its time for a new one...as much as I love the red targets and the scenario overall.

Currently Blues have to kill 50% of the Allied fleet (a lot of which is cargo ships) and 70% of two sets of landing craft (strafeable in an Fw190) what troubles me is the turn-around time for blues and the fact it seems easier for a base attack than for an attack on the landings.

There is only a P51 C on DDay at the moment.

RED
A-20C
B-25J-1NA
B-24J-100-CF
A-20G
P-38J
P-47D-10
P-47D-22
P-47D-27
P-51C-NT
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkIXc
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
SpitfireMkIXeHF
TempestMkV
BLUE
Bf-109G-6AS=10,U3R6-MG151-20
Bf-109G-14=16
Bf-109G-6_Late=R5-MK108;U3R6-MG151-20
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-8
Fw-190A-5165ATA
Bf-110G-2
He-111H-2
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-5
Ju-88A-4

Personally I think this planeset is a bit messy and overinvolved. Especially in the Spitfire/P47 department,as for the Tempest we could limit it.Or heresy of heresies have no Spits just the Tempest:eek:


Or keep the numbers the same, but shift the Axis focus to Sword/Gold/Juno as opposed to the Omaha/Utah approaches. This will decrease flight time for the Axis allowing more regular bombing runs against the Allied fleet.

I'm thinking maybe shift the fleet west a bit and use only the western Blue base (base to base camping would be a pretty dull affair from here.) thus shortening the flight-time and keeping the two 'attack-streams' away from each other. As for adding airstarts this isn't an idea I'm keen on because I don't think this is where the problem lies and I'm not sure this is a 'level-bombing' map either really, the whole D-Day thing says low-level B26/Marauder attacks but I know having any air to air combat over the beaches is a exercise in 'what-if' anyway.

Finally, I would like to say I've built up a sizable private hatred for this DDay map, just because it never seems to be right, me and JtD have spent hours with it and it refuses to make most folks happy. I think it's an :bum: and it makes me :thwak: and:wall: A simple solution is required:D

Getting this sort of detailed discussion about problem maps is very useful and I'm sure we can come up with a workable plan of action here.
P.S.I'm definately not making another one:p

Sonko
26-04-2007, 17:22
How about putting the red fleet 10km west delete about 20 of the red landing crafts (10 each group)?

Also one version of the P-47 should be enough, maybe 3 different Spitfires (no HF-version maybe), removing the never-seen P-38, removing one of the A-20's, removing the BF-109G-14 (remember its originally a hungarian fighter-bomber), removing either the FW-190-A5 or -A8 (this -A5 is only slightly faster than the -A8), removing the HE-111H-2 (why not removing both HE-111H's when we have the imo better Ju-88).

Sonko

PS: Isen't there a blue vehicle column in a village very deep in the blue territory?

Firelok
26-04-2007, 18:39
Yes, I think what Sonko's saying makes a lot of sense not sure about P38 getting dropped though (it's true it got used a lot less when the Tempest showed up though.)

There is indeed a column of Panzers inland for the reds to hit, the coastal defences are all soft targets (artillery trucks and stuff) so it seemed neccessary to give them a more troublesome target as well.