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Firelok
20-05-2007, 14:01
Been working away on another map based on the shipping attack by Typhoons idea, using rocket only Tempest as a stand-in...
I decided to use the summer version of Murmansk map to simulate part of the Antwerp delta and have a foreshortened North Sea for Reds to fly over.
Red attackers have about 3 grids to fly and to reach heavily defended merchant shipping on the Netherlands coast. I decided to make this a defend only map for blues, Planeset...


BLUES (no bombs or MK108s)
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-6
REDS
MosquitoFBMkVI
SpitfireMkVbLFCLP
SpitfireMkIXc - must take Bombs
TempestMkV - Rockets only allowed

The coast is heavily defended away from the target areas too with coastal defence vessels anchored in various estuaries, both airbases(Red and Blue) are defended by lots of flak batteries and their approaches are covered by very high skill level defence ships.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/scheldt1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/scheldt2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/scheldt3.jpg
I ended up with this set up because I didn't want to use Normandy map again or effectively make another version of Major_Damages great Biscay (Italy_Online) map but with Tempests. As pointed out by Zorin in the Norway thread, these merchant ships are very easy to kill with rockets so there is a lot of them and the AAA around them is strong (but destroyable).

Zorin
20-05-2007, 14:25
Now this is going to be a winner!

Great planeset and a very promising scenery :) Looking forward to test it asap.

Sonko
20-05-2007, 23:48
Now this is going to be a winner!

Great planeset and a very promising scenery :) Looking forward to test it asap.

Ich habe dem nichts hinzuzufügen! :) (I've got nothing to add here.)

Zorin
21-05-2007, 00:21
Bad server status for testing it, but I think it showed great potential.

The target is absolutely perfect, deadly, but if you plan your attack you can get out with two ships and not a single scratch.

But the blue base needs to be relocated to Sovomorsk(spelling?) to establish a corridor for red attacks. Now, Blues are camping over the targets and red airfield and every run is doomed to be suicidal.

Firelok
22-05-2007, 22:17
Ok lot of problems here shown by full server testing.
(Almost my most porked test map ever)
Rather than go into details I'll fix it and post what I've changed in a bit.

Firelok
23-05-2007, 01:47
In brief,
SpitIXcs can't use droptanks (must have a bomb)
Bf109G2 removed.
2 Blue airbases (the second is further east)
3 Groups of Ships to destroy rather than one.
cameras added.

Boemher
23-05-2007, 12:56
How about a train target to replace one of the ship groups? The Typhoons main targets pre DDay were enemy shipping and rolling stock.

Paulie
23-05-2007, 13:09
Lots of fun.
I like the idea of a typhoon v shipping map, it has a clarity of purpose about it which I like.
Even with the problems last night this was a fun map. Once finessed this will be a popular map I am sure.

Firelok
23-05-2007, 14:04
How about a train target to replace one of the ship groups? The Typhoons main targets pre DDay were enemy shipping and rolling stock.

There is only one railway line on this map and that terminates fully 10 grids away for red base. So ships only on this one, However I'm working on another using the Kurland Online map with a late44 map set based on the 'No-Ball' missions (against V1's etc.) with Blue military targets and Red, an armoured train would fit well here. NoBall is aimed at replacing the Ardennes mission we have, similar planeset but with a level bombing option as well as fighter bombers is what I'm thinking. THis is likely to take a lot longer to make than Scheldt though.

MajorDamage
23-05-2007, 15:14
Despite the blue spawning issue I really enjoyed rocketing ships last night. I never realised they were so effective! In a lot of our maps that have the Tempest it's been sort of plonked on to an existing late war planeset, so it's nice to have a map where the Tempest (Typhoon) gets a clearly defined role.

Gordano
23-05-2007, 15:28
I think I mentioned my idea of a trying to have a certain "random" element to map, ie coming across targets of opportunity such as a lone ship in a bay etc. Boemher's suggestion got me thinking, that maybe there could be the same with road vehicles or small encampments. Proper bash anything that moves (or in the case of a dogfight map, stands still) style!

The layout of the map, very linear flight paths and a straight (ie east to west) and flatish coastline would make this fairly feasible I feel. I know it's a little departure from the norm but I think it will have a positive effect on the map with more teamwork from small groups of planes going off hunting, rather than everyone congregating on one area.

Boemher
23-05-2007, 15:50
There is only one railway line on this map and that terminates fully 10 grids away for red base. So ships only on this one, However I'm working on another using the Kurland Online map with a late44 map set based on the 'No-Ball' missions (against V1's etc.) with Blue military targets and Red, an armoured train would fit well here. NoBall is aimed at replacing the Ardennes mission we have, similar planeset but with a level bombing option as well as fighter bombers is what I'm thinking. THis is likely to take a lot longer to make than Scheldt though.

I thought you'd say that :) Shows how much I know about the limits of map building when I thought you could lay down your own rail tracks! The majority of Typhoon missions were low altitude air to ground strike like Scheldt. While the majority of Tempest missions were low alt air to air, including V1 chasing and Rat Catching (Me 262 killing) with the odd bit of strafing if the opportunity arose. It would be cool if the Ardennes V1 replacement had elements of pure fighter action going on in it too. Kind of like Dortmund has pure high alt air to air for the US late war stuff.

The Plane balance on Scheldt is pretty good imo. (Typhoons)Tempests go down easy which should allay plane balance fears that they are too uber.

Can I suggest that there is a Light house or two added near the bay? If one is already there and I missed it my excuse is that I was one of the guys flying blue yesterday :)

Firelok
23-05-2007, 16:06
Current uploaded version has 3 groups of shipping all with heavy AAA defence, there are already a number of small installations (such as radar and listening arrays) along the coast mainly there to break up the monotony and make it seem a little more 'occupied' Targets of opportunity? Putting more trucks and other objects in is easy but for them to count towards the victory conditions they'd need a target area, to make this 'random' what could we do? Not have cameras for these targets maybe and define a target radius so large that some searching would be required?

Anyhow please try out the 3 target 'fixed' shipping version that's currently on the server.Scheldt.mis

One final thought is that to some extent the 'random' element is harder to create with ServerCommander in that it's a defined area but not defined as what object (it might be 10 half-tracks or 10 battleships) SC will just say 10 targets and what grid they are in.


If one is already there and I missed it my excuse is that I was one of the guys flying blue yesterday

along the coast are two light houses a listening array another radar array and a little refuelling depot two farms (with windmills) and some other navigational aids to shipping :)

Zorin
24-05-2007, 23:34
Called it up tonight for a test run

Report

1. Get rid of the whole limitations for blue planes, they caused a lot of trouble tonight and as people realize pretty quick that there are no targets for blues, they won't take bombs anyway. Plus, every base raid attempt is stop very efficiently by the red base AAA.

2. After 15 minutes it turns into a OT Algore: "Spits against the rest of the world." Don't know what to do about that right now.

3. Blues are still camping above the targets, especially V and Y, cause the blue base is still to close to the action.

4. The fleet in Z was still untouched, I think Algore sunk one ship, at the end of the mission, cause red and blue were busy with the two other targets.

5. At the end of the mission the server was down to 10 players, probably cause it turned midnight at about 3/4 of the mission, and V and Y where destroyed till 50% and Z still remained at nearly full strength 95%.

Algorex
24-05-2007, 23:50
To me still the problem boils down to the ease of which the blue can intercept the low flying "tiffies" visually. I know i can fly around AW19 and spot 90% of the red traffic from altitude.

I know the rest of you hate the turbulence which comes with the next level of weather, but i think the additional clouds more than make up for it.

Also the Väinämöinen-class ships are quite tough opponents, i think you might want to replace them with few more AA barges or e-boats.

Zorin
25-05-2007, 00:11
To me still the problem boils down to the ease of which the blue can intercept the low flying "tiffies" visually. I know i can fly around AW19 and spot 90% of the red traffic from altitude.

I know the rest of you hate the turbulence which comes with the next level of weather, but i think the additional clouds more than make up for it.

Also the Väinämöinen-class ships are quite tough opponents, i think you might want to replace them with few more AA barges or e-boats.

If we really want to switch to the next weather level, we should keep the Väinämöinen-class, which can be destroyed with four rockets, and only reduce its ROF cause with the turbulences hitting an E-boat will prove to be quite a challenge to most players.

Firelok
25-05-2007, 12:02
Next weather level doesn't actually put more clouds in the places required, strangely I found that the good weather settings put clouds close to the target path over coast, the next two settings worse there are more clouds but they are no where near the action. :mad:

I don't really understand the 'remove restrictions from blues' comments here even if there are not any targets players will still bomb the enemy base, this way it isn't possible. Plus MG151's/Mk108s are going to make life utterly impossible for reds here, ther default armamament stays( this is also easily explained in one line of the breif-use default only.)

I shall have a tweak of the AAA ships etc.

Zorin
25-05-2007, 12:31
Next weather level doesn't actually put more clouds in the places required, strangely I found that the good weather settings put clouds close to the target path over coast, the next two settings worse there are more clouds but they are no where near the action. :mad:

I don't really understand the 'remove restrictions from blues' comments here even if there are not any targets players will still bomb the enemy base, this way it isn't possible. Plus MG151's/Mk108s are going to make life utterly impossible for reds here, ther default armamament stays( this is also easily explained in one line of the breif-use default only.)

I shall have a tweak of the AAA ships etc.

I simply wanted to spare you the hazel to get them right, because a good handful of people left cause the brief and actual situation about loadouts in game didn't match and people got warning points for unrestricted loadouts etc.

MajorDamage
25-05-2007, 13:23
Sorry to nit-pick, but I reckon the Väinämöinen class ships look totally out of place here. They belong in the Baltic, and we do have alternative coastal vessels that fit nicely into a channel scenario.

Chatanooga
25-05-2007, 13:32
people got warning points for unrestricted loadouts etc.

I'm not so sure about this. Somone was complaining about getting warning points trying to get off ground in a 110, I later tried this myself and had no problems whilst using default loadout on the 110.

You do however get a warning when you fly planes saying "You make not fly this plane" but no warning points are actually given and you can take off normally.

The brief really does make it quite simple.

Tempest must use rockets
Spit 9 must use bombs
Blues must use default.

Its not rocket science!

It may be worth adding a note in the brief to ignore the "you cannot fly this plane" etc unless you actually get warning points.

We will still get the "I havnt read the brief questions" but to be honest I dont mind if those people do leave the server.

Firelok
25-05-2007, 13:52
Bf-109G-6_Late=U3-MK108;R5-MK108;R6-MG151-20;U3R6-MG151-20;R3R6-MG151-20;U3-MK108;R1-SC250;R1-SC500;R2-SC50;R3-DROPTANK;
R5-MK108;R6-MG151-20;U3R6-MG151-20;R3R6-MG151-20

Bf-110G-2=m1;2sc250;2ab250;2sc500;2ab500;2sd500;4sc50;2sc2504sc50;2ab2504sc50;2sc5004sc50;2ab5004sc50;2sd500 4sc50;m5;m1m3;m1m5
;r4;r1r7;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab250;r3r7m5;r4_
;r7;r7m1;r7m2sc250;r7m2ab250;r7m3;r7m2m3sc;r7m2m3ab

Fw-190A-6=u22tank;u21sc2502tank;u3;u31sc250;u31ab250;u31sc500;u31ab500;u31sc2504sc50;u31ab2504sc50;u82tank;u 81sc5002tank;u81ab5002tank
;u171sc5004sc50;r11tank;r11sc500;r11ab500;r6wfrgr21


If we let players use bombs they'll use them on red base, even if there was a Red shipping convoy to attack people would still bomb enemy airbase. Best not to give them the option. As for the future, we've had a couple of maps that caused a commotion before the general users of UK2 got used to them. The lockdown of armaments on Dortmund last year caused quite a few kicks until folks got used to it, more recently so did MonteCassino , Vemork and Belgrade.

Zorin
25-05-2007, 14:12
Ok, so be it, yet we have no solution for Blues already waiting for the low flying Tempest(which doesn't matter as I even zoomed down on the target from 4000m and still got jumped down low) cause their way to the targets is unbelievably short.

Maybe you haven't noticed, me the blue biased guy, is trying to help reds here, so that should be taken serious. I really love the work you have done for this map Firelok, so please take it all as constructive criticism.

Firelok
25-05-2007, 17:02
Zorin you know as much about making great UK2 maps as anyone, so your input is greatly valued by me. We are often constrained by the layout of airbases on maps as much as anything...
CURRENT LAYOUT
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/scheldtmap.jpg
the 2 airbases further south of Polyarni next to Murmansk are just too far away to be used (5 grids.) there is another airbase south of Ura Guba airbase that too far aswell, Bear in mind that neither of the two blue airbases is capable of holding more than 11 planes so the option of just using Kildin airfield is available either. I really really didn't want to make any 'fake' airbases at all, I hate them with a passion TBO and only use them when strictly neccessary. I've had the FMB open whilst making this post and i looked for a suitable site for an alternative arrangement. Let's face it Blues duty is to camp the targets and whether they have to fly 2,2.5 or 4.5 grids sooner or later this is going to happen. Maybe Reds don't have the planeset to 'push' into this control area, accepting that the 'Typhoons' and Mossies are more than enough to knock out all the shipping perhaps the spitfires should be allowed to fly unrestricted, causing blues to have a lot more to deal with over the targets regardless of their flight-time.
Zorin and Algore have both posted different solutions to make life harder for blues here (and easier for reds.) I really don't want to use another 'fake' airbase it's so inelegant. Is it possible therefore to make a DF map based on these Typhoon raids where the defensive fighters of the luftwaffe were ready and waiting over the targets (as so often happened) and keep some semblance of balance? I would like to try and beef up the escort option before committing to making another fake base somewhere.

Zorin
25-05-2007, 17:38
Of course I know Firelok, I didn't want to be mean. Also do I know that you give your best to make this fun for everyone.

How about making the right base the Fw and 110 base and the left the Bf 109 base?

MajorDamage
25-05-2007, 18:23
Just as a thought - instead of havng it as a blues-defend-only map, is it worth considering giving blues a target, maybe a channel convoy or something. Some guys like to bomb and if you're stuck playing blue because of team balance then you're forced to fly a fighter.

It might make it easier to balance the map ... dunno just sort of thinking aloud.

Firelok
22-06-2007, 06:50
Just as a thought - instead of havng it as a blues-defend-only map, is it worth considering giving blues a target, maybe a channel convoy or something. Some guys like to bomb and if you're stuck playing blue because of team balance then you're forced to fly a fighter.

It might make it easier to balance the map ... dunno just sort of thinking aloud.

Bumpity Bump...
So... in the interests of achieving some sort of balance between teams/targets I've opted to go for the 'give blues targets option'
So there is a big fat red convoy offshore trailing East-West. Blues get to use fighter-bombers (I'm not planning to add any level or torpedo bombers) but I have put in the Me210 for interest (available at the eastern blue base.) for using against shipping. THere are less shipping targets for blues as the number of ships per sortie possible is a lot less. Hopefully this fairly radical change might get this one up and running on a server near you:rolleyes:

Firelok
23-06-2007, 08:28
I'm glad I took the advice as this seemed to work a lot better now both sides have targets. I think I've fixed the outstanding targets problems now, I suspect that if any part of a target radius ends up crossing the frontline markers then it can cause the other team to have their own objects appear as attack groups, wierd.

MajorDamage
23-06-2007, 10:23
I think this is a fine map. I really like all the little ground details along the coastline which help set the scene. Good choice of terrain as well - it looks pretty convincing as the Dutch coast. Rocketing ships in a Tempest is just one of the most fun 'ground' attack things you can do in this game - deeply satisfying!

MajorDamage
15-07-2007, 10:20
Noticed yesterday that there seems to be an issue with the sleep times for the blue targets. At the end of the map the carrier was firing. Also AAA feels generally very heavy in comparison with the red targets. It's really hard to sink those tiny little boats that seem to be putting up the bulk of the low level AA fire.

Firelok
15-07-2007, 12:52
I shall have a look. I've altered the AAA ships around the red convoy, to sinkable varieties and it's not as nasty AI wise. The CVA etc do wake up towards the end of the map these bigger ships don't often get to fire. If blues kill the destroyers early and the Escort Carrier/Cruiser later the area is then flak free. Each Red target is protected by at least one MFP barge, and the coast has Flak88s and 37mms along it too. Just in case you thought I wasn't being evenhandedly evil ;-)

Zorin
10-12-2008, 20:19
Please add the Me210. :)

Sonko
11-12-2008, 00:48
done

Luxchamp
11-12-2008, 01:01
HA! could we have that map tomorrow...i mean today in the evening? me wants me wants me wants! :D

Zorin
11-12-2008, 13:32
HA! could we have that map tomorrow...i mean today in the evening? me wants me wants me wants! :D

Kauen and Scheldt for me. Lets fill UkD2 like in the good old days.