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Firelok
07-07-2007, 13:49
In the Scheldt thread and in Boehmers' More Tempest maps' thread I said I was working on another Tempest map with the aim of replacing Ardennes with a larger scale late western front map using the Kurland_Online map.

Targets include V1 and V2 sites, rocket-transporting convoys, trains and heavy panzers.
On the blue side artillery, bridge-builders/DUKW's, mechanised infantry half track columns, Shermans, Forward HQ's. Both sides targets scattered over a large area of front, so there is more of a feel of 'hunting' down ground targets.

It's possible that the occaisional rocket might land on the forward Red base too (they really are woefully inaccurate though, if you take time to watch them:) )

So there you go, it's a biggy. Six target groups for each side, with 75% required to destroy ATM.



RED AIRFIELD
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
TempestMkV
RED AIRSTART
B-25J-1NA
P-47D-27
BLUE 'HIDDEN' AIRFIELD
Bf-109K-4
Do-335A-0
BLUE AIRFIELD
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109G-14
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
BLUE AIRSTART
Fw-190F-8
Ju-88A-4
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0000.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0003.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0004-1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0005-1.jpg

MORE PICS......

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0006.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0008.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0010.jpg

YET MORE PICS....
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0011.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0012.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/grab0002-1.jpg

Firelok
07-07-2007, 14:05
Well there you go, all a bit dull really. ;)

Red's might get Mustang Mk.III or a P38L not sure about this and not 100% sure about having a 109G14 around, blues might get Me-210Ca-1 for a bit of colour but your probably better off in a Do335.

My BIG BIG problem with this is finding a suitable name, My working title is Noball but this is horrible and Operation Noball was an earlier set of missions against the V weapons mostly level bombing like Operation Crossbow. Searching out placenames in Eastern France,Belgium and Holland that had V1 sites (and still have bunker remains etc. ) has found me some great web-sites about all this stuff. Mimoyecques the big V3/V2 complex in France is in the wrong area for this period of the war and again was a Crossbow target rather than something on the frontline battle like is needed.

Zorin
07-07-2007, 14:17
Very interesting Fire :)

Is it a late 1944 or a 1945 map?

Because maybe we could swap the K-4 for a He162 and the G-14 for a G6late. That would keep the MK108 Bf109s out and introduce a 20mm jet, which along with the Do would be a interesting match, IMO.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 15:28
Maybe you can find a good name from this website ofV2 sites (http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/mobileoperations.html), look especially at this map (http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/costyn_map.jpg)

I must say this map sounds darn good.

Boemher
07-07-2007, 15:38
How about 'Operation Diver',

Clostermann was always talking about the 'Divers' V1 threat. The V2 was even more of a diver in literal terms.

It looks great, plane set looks good, glad that Spit IX 25lbs are off of it too. Id go with the limited planeset. P47 D Late and Tempest get a chance to shine here.

Zorin
07-07-2007, 16:00
How about 'Operation Diver',

Clostermann was always talking about the 'Divers' V1 threat. The V2 was even more of a diver in literal terms.

It looks great, plane set looks good, glad that Spit IX 25lbs are off of it too. Id go with the limited planeset. P47 D Late and Tempest get a chance to shine here.

I'd say they would have a better chance without the K4 and G14. And the P47 is a D-27 and not a late, isn't it?

Boemher
07-07-2007, 16:27
I'd say they would have a better chance without the K4 and G14. And the P47 is a D-27 and not a late, isn't it?

K4 and G 14 are target drones in a late war map imo, not fast enough to run away and not manuverable enough to fight. They can have their Mk 108s if it makes them more competitive.

The P47 D Late should be on the map if it is late 44 or early 45 as thats what its there for. If the map is Autumn 44 then D-27 is ok, but then there should be no K4 or D9(maybe just a few) and definitely no Do 335.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 16:34
K4 and G 14 are target drones in a late war map imo, not fast enough to run away and not manuverable enough to fight. They can have their Mk 108s if it makes them more competitive.

The P47 D Late should be on the map if it is late 44 or early 45 as thats what its there for. If the map is Autumn 44 then D-27 is ok, but then there should be no K4 or D9(maybe just a few) and definitely no Do 335.

If it's autumn 44 there shouldn't be tempests either ;)

Boemher
07-07-2007, 16:38
If it's autumn 44 there shouldn't be tempests either ;)

There were plenty Tempests flying around in Autumn 44 - just not from bases in France. 1st Tempests in mainland Europe arrived September 44 iirc.

If it involves chasing down V1s the Tempest will be there, even if Its a hypothetical 1942 V1 scenario and I have to bribe the map maker myself.

Firelok
07-07-2007, 16:55
I wanted to go for a late44 (Ardennes style ) planeset without the Luftwaffe Jets (we have the Rhur map for those and the more 'fantasy' Rhineland too.)

THis is ardennes planeset at the moment BTW.

[PlanesArmy1]
MosquitoFBMkVI
P-38L_Late
P-47D
P-51D-5NT
P-51D-20NA
SpitfireMkIXcCLP
SpitfireMkIXe
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
SpitfireMkIX25lbs
TempestMkV
[PlanesArmy2]
Bf-109G-10
Bf-109G-14
Fw-190A-8
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9
Fw-190F-8
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109K-4

We could let the 109G6_Late have Mk108s, have a numbers limit on the 109G6A/S and lock her 108s. I quite like the 109K as an option with limited numbers too. We are going to have no restrictions on the Tempest which is about 20kph faster than the Kurfurst, dangerous armament too.
Changing the type of planes on a map isn't difficult or time consuming, and getting the plane balance right is really important here and what we end up going with is totally open for discussion so as we end up with an enjoyable mix of planes for both sides.

That's a good site BTW Algore I've looked at that before, Walcheren is a possible choice, The Kurland map isn't really a good match up for the Ardennes/Eiffel areas, it's flat with scattered forest lots of farmland possibly more similar to occuppied Netherlands territory.
Mimoyecques
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimoyecques
The V3 site destroyed by RAF Tallboy munitions

…perlecques
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89perlecques
The Tallboys failed to penetrate this bunker, which is frankly awesome.

Algorex
07-07-2007, 17:17
Just call it "Nord" or "Pas de Calais" after the region where most of the V1 and V2 sites were located during autumn 1944.

MajorDamage
07-07-2007, 17:27
Looks great. Do you have a screenie of the layout? Not sure what you mean by 'Hidden' base!

Firelok
09-07-2007, 19:05
My current thinking is this planeset below limits on the 109K and the Do335

And I'm probably going to call the map Antwerp as this was the target for the vengeance weapons at this time of 1944, so the front-line is east of Antwerp in the Netherlands with the Allies pushing into eastern Holland in the autumn of 44.

RED
MosquitoFBMkVI
MustangIII
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
TempestMkV
B-25J-1NA=airstart
P-47D=airstart
BLUE
Fw-190F-8=airstart
Ju-88A-4=airstart
Bf-109G-6_Late
Bf-109K-4=12
Do-335A-0=8
Bf-109G-6AS
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190D-9

As for the 'hidden base' Kurland has some homebases that are on a roadway so I thought a temporary base might be nice.

MajorDamage
09-07-2007, 19:36
As for the 'hidden base' Kurland has some homebases that are on a roadway so I thought a temporary base might be nice.

Nice. Historia used to have a map on Kurland that made good use of one of the roadway bases - it was very atmospheric.

Planeset looks good - plenty of options so something for everyone.

Algorex
09-07-2007, 19:39
Late in the war it wasn't uncommon to see a luftwaffe unit using remote fields as temporary airfields even in germany.

MajorDamage
09-07-2007, 19:48
Yeah, they had Me262 units using sections of Autobahn as a runway.

NS-IceFire
09-07-2007, 21:55
Call it Crossbow. Given the nature of the operations thats perfect!

Tempests were in operation on the continent in late September 1944 so perfectly historical.

I really like the looks of it!

Zorin
09-07-2007, 22:03
do we really need the MustangIII?

Firelok
09-07-2007, 22:59
Call it Crossbow. Given the nature of the operations thats perfect!

Tempests were in operation on the continent in late September 1944 so perfectly historical.

I really like the looks of it!

The Crossbow Operations are an earlier period really and mostly involved level bombing, in some sense this is the V1s and V2 sites getting overrun along a general battle front, most of the targets are your usual army stuff. I did find out they attempte to take out some of the big static bunkers with radio controlled B17s stuffed with explosives how crazy is that.

Zorin
09-07-2007, 23:13
The Crossbow Operations are an earlier period really and mostly involved level bombing, in some sense this is the V1s and V2 sites getting overrun along a general battle front, most of the targets are your usual army stuff. I did find out they attempte to take out some of the big static bunkers with radio controlled B17s stuffed with explosives how crazy is that.

Sounds familiar, Mistel comes to mind. ;)

irish
09-07-2007, 23:26
why not Mustang III, Zorin? I can only think of one map its on and that is the Rhineland jet map.

Firelok
09-07-2007, 23:30
do we really need the MustangIII?

Why not? limited numbers maybe? Most pilots hate it, Tempest is probably way more dangerous. i'm a lot less concerned about it's inclusion that having a 25lbs Boosted Spit for example. THis way the ground base is 100% RAF too, no P38s or whatever or indeed other P51 types.

NS-IceFire
10-07-2007, 00:16
The Crossbow Operations are an earlier period really and mostly involved level bombing, in some sense this is the V1s and V2 sites getting overrun along a general battle front, most of the targets are your usual army stuff. I did find out they attempte to take out some of the big static bunkers with radio controlled B17s stuffed with explosives how crazy is that.

Ahh ok...I had thought that all operations against V-1/2 sites, at least in USAAF lingo was part of "Crossbow". That is crazy...its like the WWII version of a cruise missile :)

Zorin
10-07-2007, 02:44
Why not? limited numbers maybe? Most pilots hate it, Tempest is probably way more dangerous. i'm a lot less concerned about it's inclusion that having a 25lbs Boosted Spit for example. THis way the ground base is 100% RAF too, no P38s or whatever or indeed other P51 types.

I think with its speed, which exceeds blues by an average of ~40km/h except Do335, it could be the most dangerous plane on red side(plus its fantastic climb), besides the already quite dangerous Tempest. And airstarted P47s will be all over the blue team which has all its reasonable planes grounded, cause the F8 is more or less lost in this scenario, same for the G6late.

Firelok
10-07-2007, 05:31
RED
MosquitoFBMkVI
MustangIII=12
SpitfireMkIXeCLP
TempestMkV
B-25J-1NA
P-47D-27
BLUE
Bf-109G-6AS
Bf-109K-4=12
Do-335A-0=8
Fw-190D-9
Fw-190A-9
Me-210Ca-1
Fw-190A-8
Fw-190F-8
Ju-88A-4

Planes for first test.

T}{OR
10-07-2007, 08:16
Realy looking forward to this one. When will first test happen?

Sonko
11-07-2007, 01:05
I enjoyed playing it very much today, nice job Firelok! :)

How about adding 30 more minutes to the mission time?

T}{OR
11-07-2007, 01:08
Same here. Didn't get the chance to go JABO in P-47, but MustangIII realy shines on this map. Gives those D-9's something to fight with. :)

Next time I'm coming properly dressed.

Zorin
11-07-2007, 01:15
Which team won the map? Red or Blue?

TigerTalon
11-07-2007, 01:17
Great map indeed! Unlimited doras go very well with an airstarted P47s and a handfull of MustangIIIs IMO.

Very nicely done ground targets also.

MajorDamage
11-07-2007, 11:20
I only got to play the last 20 mins or so of this last night, but had fun chucking my D9 rocket ship around the sky until I came across the Mustang III rocket ships and suddenly didn't feel so clever. Beautifully designed map. It's a biggun, a bit like Papua in that respect, so I think it'll take a few plays before we all work out where everything is and what the options are. I think it should prove popular with the ground pounders.

Zorin
11-07-2007, 15:17
According to stats reds scored a plus of over 1/3 in terms of plane kills and pretty much ruled the ground attack as well. I wasn't there and can only interpret the facts, but seeing that there is a plane like the Do335 for ground attack and one burst kills that outcome is a little odd.

But maybe blue featured poor teamplay as seen so often and it may turn out quite different on the next try.

Sonko
11-07-2007, 17:21
But maybe blue featured poor teamplay as seen so often and it may turn out quite different on the next try.

Probably yes.

In the last 15 minutes of the mission NuttyUK and me attacked some ground with our F8's and didn't even see a red plane.

ali
11-07-2007, 18:52
the spit IXc would be a good addition I think :)

NS-IceFire
11-07-2007, 22:24
the spit IXc would be a good addition I think :)

That would be used more in the ADGB units...the IXe Clipped is a better match for the aircraft being used by the 2nd TAF which is what this battle featured most prominently. Plus tons of maps have the IXc and its nice to see something else used.

Sonko
12-07-2007, 00:35
No, please don't add another Spitfire...I don't like to fly them and I don't like to encounter them. :rolleyes: :D

Firelok
12-07-2007, 06:06
the spit IXc would be a good addition I think :)

And so it begins....

T}{OR
12-07-2007, 07:55
Nicht SpitfeŁer adden!!! :D

MajorDamage
12-07-2007, 09:23
Noooooooooo... please no more spitfires :wall:

Sonko
12-07-2007, 12:38
And so it begins....

LoL! Now there are four or five comments about adding a plane or not, all without an reasonable answer except Ice's one. Sorry for that! :D :fluffle:

*EDIT* To me the actual planeset looks good as it is at the moment.

stanford
12-07-2007, 12:52
Woooooo! I get my new PSU FINALLY tomorrow. I sure hope that's what been making my PC turn itself off randomly. I can't install a PSU though, so I'm going to have to wait until some boffin comes near me and I can make him do it.

I'm genuinely excited about this map, and I can't wait to fly it. I love the plane set. I'm also going to try my hand at making a map - be prepared!!

Joe2L
12-07-2007, 13:21
PSU installation is fairly easy. I managed it a while ago and I was a complete PC upgrade newbie. I used this website, really good step by step info:

The first few lines really applied to me: :D

"O.k, so you are a complete layperson, has never open your computer case, is afraid of doing so, but want to replace your power supply unit with a better one. This tutorial was made just for you..."


http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/362/1

Algorex
12-07-2007, 13:52
PSU installation is fairly easy. I managed it a while ago and I was a complete PC upgrade newbie. I used this website, really good step by step info:

The first few lines really applied to me: :D

"O.k, so you are a complete layperson, has never open your computer case, is afraid of doing so, but want to replace your power supply unit with a better one. This tutorial was made just for you..."


http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/362/1

Now all you have to do is to figure out how to browse the page without a powersupply :p

Firelok
17-07-2007, 06:29
Tested this again with a 30+ server and it works OK.
If I've got a criticism it is this, there is an awful lot of sky. One of the problems as I saw it with Ardennes is the base to base distances was too small which gives a disadvantage as I see it to Blues who (due to the nature of their planes) need space to get altitude. So I was OK with making a late war map that was bigger than usual.
ANTWERP MAP
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/antwerp1.jpg
As a comparison...
BULGE MAP
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/bulge1.jpg
and..
DDAY MAP
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/DDay.jpg
At the moment it is possible to hit targets and escape un-interdicted.
So I admit it's big but is it soo big it's a problem. I think if someone else had made it, I'd accept it, point out this is a potential problem and then see what happens and if unfavourable comments are made over chat or here.

Firelok
20-07-2007, 06:16
AS there are no technical issues here I've decided to place it in the cycle.
Antwerp.mis replacing Ardennes.mis

irish
20-07-2007, 11:40
AS there are no technical issues here I've decided to place it in the cycle.
Antwerp.mis replacing Ardennes.mis

Hurray!:)

Recently played the Ardennes V1 Hunt map for Blue and was sick. I always had an idea of what was wrong with that map (ie: small map, High performance AC), but the fact was the Blues were in a non-stop bind. Fly the 109 and be generally outclassed or fly a 190 variant and get B'n'Zed by Spits/P51's before you could reach any good altitude.

Zorin
22-09-2007, 00:48
Hurray!:)

Recently played the Ardennes V1 Hunt map for Blue and was sick. I always had an idea of what was wrong with that map (ie: small map, High performance AC), but the fact was the Blues were in a non-stop bind. Fly the 109 and be generally outclassed or fly a 190 variant and get B'n'Zed by Spits/P51's before you could reach any good altitude.

Still the same, IMO. The Spitfire/MustangIII combination is leathel. Nothing you can do about it. Porky and Fox were having the time of their lifes today, I guess. When you turned Porky got you in his Spit and when you tried to get away Fox easily ran you down in his MustangIII. He did it even against a Do335 with 50% fuel and no bombload...

Plus, we usually were picked up below 2k one grid from our, which renders you pretty much dead in any late war German plane.

NS-IceFire
22-09-2007, 05:00
So...where was your wingman to counter either of those moves? Spitfires are still sitting ducks when you have a group of late war German fighters. On Ardennes it USED to be a shooting gallery for Blue where a group of pretty good D-9 pilots would wade into the swirling mass of Spitfires and wipe them out. Few know how to really make any model of Mustang dance so it was never really a huge problem.

The benefit with the new map seems to be largely that you aren't confined by the map and can fly in any 360 degree motion and gain altitude properly. I haven't played the map yet so I can't comment from experience on that one but this looks to give everyone allot more room to stretch and thats particularly good for Blue but it also means that you can work within either team to achieve local air superiority through teamwork.

Sonko
22-09-2007, 07:50
Yesterday evening most blue pilots seemed to be new to the game, e.g. FW190A9 turnfighting a spitfire (and loosing) or nearly half of the blue team flying various versions of the BF109 and (of course) getting shot down or simply blindness of the pilot.

The time I flew the FW190D9 I had no problems as I outran everything while the MustangMKIII was occupied with shooting down 109's, I even outran some Spitfires with a BF109K4.

Zorin
22-09-2007, 13:39
This is what Porky and Fox achieved in 7 minutes.

1. 4 minutes: bombed targets.
2. 7 minutes: Shot down Do335s after diving down on them from 2000m+ deep in Blue territory. (Do335 traveled at max speed of 570km/h which is useless against any diving opponent)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Unbenannt-1.jpg

NS-IceFire
22-09-2007, 14:52
So why didn't the Do-335 pilots climb to 2000 meters? Its not exactly a difficult thing to do...I'd fly the Do-335 in 334th with a SC1000 bomb and climb to 3000 meters by the time I reached the forward line...and we all know how close together those bases are.

Allot of this are tactics. If Blue was flying as Sonko described then no small wonder that they got severely dealt with.

Zorin
22-09-2007, 14:58
So why didn't the Do-335 pilots climb to 2000 meters? Its not exactly a difficult thing to do...I'd fly the Do-335 in 334th with a SC1000 bomb and climb to 3000 meters by the time I reached the forward line...and we all know how close together those bases are.

Allot of this are tactics. If Blue was flying as Sonko described then no small wonder that they got severely dealt with.

We took the best detour without actually retreating from the battlefield and actually believed that 1k would be sufficient. :thwak:

But with F6 we were tracked easily anyway, so there would have been little difference in the outcome.

And yes, most Blue flew like that, therefor you are lost even in a D9. I dragged enemy planes right infront of teammates a dozen times just to see them turn away!! and begin a turnfight with a Spitfire on the deck :mad:

Algorex
22-09-2007, 15:16
We took the best detour without actually retreating from the battlefield and actually believed that 1k would be sufficient. :thwak:

But with F6 we were tracked easily anyway, so there would have been little difference in the outcome.

And yes, most Blue flew like that, therefor you are lost even in a D9. I dragged enemy planes right infront of teammates a dozen times just to see them turn away!! and begin a turnfight with a Spitfire on the deck :mad:

So the problem wasn't the map or the planeset, but the players present at the time.

Zorin
22-09-2007, 15:27
So the problem wasn't the map or the planeset, but the players present at the time.

Yes, but as they are always the root of all evil the plane set may have to undergo a bit of a change to counter that. Otherwise it can be very frustrating for one side. :wall:

I didn't mind getting killed. Just the way it happened made me mad :mad:

Sonko
10-11-2007, 12:23
@Zorin: I'd rather spawn at the southern base when I intend to attack the southern targets.

As addition the BF110 would be great imo, I just miss it here. Firelok, what do you think?

Firelok
10-12-2007, 05:56
Ok I made some changes to try and 'pull' all the action into a smaller area along the front. Both sides have less targets (the long distance ones are removed.)
I shifted the B25 airstart to next to the north red base. Hopefully this might give the map a more north-south layout than before and increase the chances of encounters.
Other changes are...
No restriction on the Do335, increased number of 109Ks. Added the Bf110 and the Ta152H.

Sonko
10-12-2007, 13:10
Added the Bf110 and the Ta152H.



Nice one!