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Firelok
15-07-2007, 15:42
The recent general area discussion about UK1 Stalingrad has made me have a look again at Uk2's version.

REDS
I-16type24
Il-2M_Late
LaGG-3series4
LaGG-3series29=20,kinderwud
LaGG-3series35=8
MiG-3-2xUB
MiG-3-2xShVAK
MiG-3-AM-38
P-39N1=15
Yak-1B
Yak-7BPF=15
Yak-9
Pe-2series84
BLUES
Bf-109E-7
Bf-109F-4
Bf-109G-2=16
Bf-110G-2=m1;m1m3;m1m5;r1;r1r7;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab25 0;r3r7m5;r4;r7m1
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-3
Ju-88A-4
Fw-190A-4

Looking up some of these aircraft in the 'in service dates' section makes me wonder if this could be rationalised a bit. Blues usually do quite well here, even with the plane limits. There are a lot of A/C on reds side that are a little unusual MiG AM38 for example and the P39. We have pretty good evidence for both the La5 and the Yak 9 getting used over Stalingrad but some of the others are a bit iffy. Perhaps limiting the mega bombloads of the He11 and Ju88 might be considered too. An La5/Yak9 vs G2/A4 map is going to be quite balanced even without limits on any aircraft at all.

irish
15-07-2007, 15:58
http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/aircraft/russian/lendlease.htm

This link puts the first Soviet combat sorties of the P39 in June, 1942. Unfortunately, it doesn't say where. Doing more research

Firelok
15-07-2007, 16:03
P-39 - D-1 for 2 GIAP, 78 SAP and 19 GIAP (all Murmansk) May 1942, also some to Moscow PVO. Deliveries then through Iran and ALSIB from late 42 (D-2 models and later), available to first units (mainly south) early 43 and operational Kuban from Spring 1943. Later everywhere except Baltic Fleet.
From here....http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/8031009945?r=8031009945#8031009945

irish
15-07-2007, 22:55
well, there ya go. won't be visiting ubi to confirm it tho (not that i don't trust Firelok-ubi gives me skin rashes)

MajorDamage
16-07-2007, 10:29
Adding the La5 and either removing or increasing the restriction on the P39 would seem to be the obvious fix.

This probably isn't very helpful and I'm not sure about the accuracy of this 'source' but apparently the vastly superior was present:

"The most intense use of Hurricane was in Stalingrad area, until fall 1942, but it was retired (or wiped out) from front line service before winter."

from http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/13713-lend-leased-planes-where-when.html

irish
16-07-2007, 12:35
Good Gawd. If the Soviets were flying the VSH at Stalingrad, they might have just saved alot of time and hassel by dousing their VSH (and themeselves) in 87 octane and lighting a match.

It does jive with the historical record for the Soviets to have grossly obsolete AC at Stalingrad, though. After November, Stalin threw everything he had at the 6. Armee. He wanted a decisive battle. Hitler obliged

Firelok
16-07-2007, 13:55
La5s, Yak9s, FieldMod Hurri's, no P39s, IL2s ans Pe2s that looks like a planeset to me.

Sonko
16-07-2007, 17:27
Yep, lets give it a try.

MajorDamage
16-07-2007, 20:39
Sorry for being thick - my knowledge of the Eastern Front is poor - but do we have to lose the P39? Were there just definitely no P39's anywhere near Stalingrad? Personally if we're going to keep the Fw190 I'd like to see the P39 stay if possible.

Firelok
17-07-2007, 16:00
Sorry for being thick - my knowledge of the Eastern Front is poor - but do we have to lose the P39? Were there just definitely no P39's anywhere near Stalingrad? Personally if we're going to keep the Fw190 I'd like to see the P39 stay if possible.

Someones posted on the other thread there were no FWs at Stalingrad. Lol won't need P39s that weren't their either. :D
Seriously though pure history isn't neccessarily as much fun as bending things a little, it's a question of bending it how much.

csThor
19-07-2007, 07:56
Asking for historical planesets for Stalingrad? The answer depends on the timeframe.

VVS

I-16type24 - Erase, delete, strike out, forget, neverthinkaboutagain. That thing is a chimaera, an ugly ******* which never was this way. A true Type 24 had the four ShKAS of the Type 18 but a stronger engine. The cannon-armed Ishaks were the types 27 and 28 and were as rare as a high-class win in the lottery. Use the type 18 and be fine.

Il-2M_Late - In fact Stalingrad saw the very first use of Il-2s with gunners, but they were a very low percentage. The overwhelming majority (90 - 95%) of the Il-2s were single-seaters without gunners.

LaGG-3series4, LaGG-3series29, LaGG-3series35 - All potentially fine.

MiG-3-2xUB, MiG-3-2xShVAK, MiG-3-AM-38 - I haven't found any MiG-3s mentioned in "Black Cross - Red Star III" near Stalingrad. I would delete them.

P-39N1 - Not present. Delete.

Yak-1B - Production got underway in late September 1942 so a tight limit would be correct. The "bread & butter" fighter of the VVS at Stalingrad was the Yak-1!

Yak-7BPF - Yak-7 were quite numerous. OK

Yak-9 - Rare. Same as Yak-1b

Pe-2series84 - OK.

Additionally you could add the field-modified Hurricane and the La-5 with tight limits (the first Regiment used it from August 1942 on over Stalingrad).

Axis

Bf-109E-7 - As groundpounder of ZG 1 and as fighter aircraft for the Rumanians.

Bf-109F-4 - Was widely used, but got replaced by Bf 109 G-2 soon. (JG 52 started receiving G-2s as early as June 1942)

Bf-109G-2 - The later in the year of 1942 the more G-2s appeared and replaced the F-4. In September the G-2 was much more numerous than its predecessor already.

Bf-110G-2 - Groundpounder of ZG 1. OK.

He-111H-6 - OK.

Ju-88A-4 - OK.

Ju-87D-3 - OK.

Fw-190A-4 - Not present. Delete.

For the Rumanians you could also add the IAR 81a.

:)

Firelok
19-07-2007, 08:58
welcome to the forums csThor (we have another T}{OR somewhere don't know if you are related:) )

Picking the bones out of this one. (assuming because we are using the non-snow version of Stalingrad map as a backdrop.) The planes would be earlier rather than later (a time-frame of September)

A historic planeset might be.(and trying to minimise multiple version of same A/C)
RED
i 16 Type 18
Il-2_1941_Late (field mod rear gunner) only a few
Il-2_1940_Late (no gunner)
LaGG-3 Series 35
Yak-1
Yak-7
La5 (some of these)
HurriFieldMod
Pe-2series84

BLUE
German
Bf-109F-4 (less of these)
Bf-109G-2 (mostly these)
Bf-110G-2
He-111H-6
Ju-88A-4
Ju-87D-3
Hungarian
IAR 81a.
Bf-109E-7

The Italians were around too, dunno what was flown though. Other A/C claimed shot down include the P40. I also read another web-article that says the La5 was in widespread use by the time Stalingrad was underway. Our problem of making a decent (i.e. enjoyable for both sides.) map of it is the only fighters capable of dealing with the 109G2 head-to-head (in the game anyway) are the La5 and the Yak 9/1b. Those earlier Yaks are in trouble against the 109F4 let alone the 109G2. Biggest and most important new info csThor has pointed out here is no 190s. One of the target areas we have is to the north of the city where German forces are in the process of reaching the riverbank, taking this as a given does place this at the beginning of September 1942.

csThor
19-07-2007, 09:06
No relations to any other "God of Thunder" here :D After all there are a lot of dogs named "Rex" :D :D

One minor modification: Do not use the Il-2 fieldmod but the first "real" Il-2 with gunner from 1942. But keep it limited just as the La-5. Its numbers were low compared to the single-seat Il-2s.
The italians flew mostly Macchi MC.200 and a few MC.202, but the latter suffered badly from a general lack of spare parts and rarely flew. And the Stukas complained about the "lousy escort" the Italians provided. ;)

EDIT: Just for the mood ;)

http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/photos_original/Stalingrad_Aces_pack_NEW.jpg

Wing-VO
19-07-2007, 09:36
It is a real situation:
Stalingrad 1942

Red
I-153
I-16 -24
Yak-1,Yak-7а
Lagg-3-29
Il-2 3 Series 41 г., field updating
Pe-2 (83, 110 Series)
Since November 42
Yak-1б, Yak-7б, Yak-9, Lagg -3 -35
Il- 2М
Since November P-40 m105
Hurri 2б, FieldMod was later.

Blue
Bf-109E-7/B
Вf-109 F4
Ju-87 D2 (B)
Ju-88
Вf-110G
He-111 Н2,Н6
IAR-80
Since November 42
Вf-109 G2.
MC 200.
MC 202.

Firelok
19-07-2007, 09:54
For the time being this is the revised planeset now showing on a server near you.;) {Note. at the time of revision I wasn't sure about the Italian planes so they aren't in.}


RED
HurricaneMkIIbMod
I-16type18
Il-2_1941_Early
Il-2M_Early=12
LaGG-3series35
La-5=24
P-40E-M-105=12
Pe-2series84
Yak-1
Yak-7BPF
BLUE
Bf-109E-7
Bf-109F-4
Bf-109G-2=24
Bf-110G-2=(all crazy gunpods etc limited)
Ju-87D-3
He-111H-6=2SC1000;2PC1600;2SC2000
Ju-88A-4=2xSC1000;2xAB1000;2xSC1800;2xSC2000

At the core of this it's 109G2s vs La5's which we know works ok on UK2.

stanford
19-07-2007, 09:55
Lovely skins, Thor.

Are you Thor from the Zoo?

MajorDamage
19-07-2007, 10:20
Firelok, that looks like a nice balanced planeset to me.

csThor, welcome to the forums and thanks for the info. :)

csThor
19-07-2007, 10:28
I-153
Minor presence, IIRC at some point just one Eskadrilya left.


I-16 -24
As I lined out this is the ******* child of the I-16 line. The overwhelming majority of the I-16s never had the ShVAK but the ShKAS armament. IMO the Type 18 is the much better representant for the Ishaks.


Yak-1,Yak-7а
Not sure about the Yak-7a - in fact I'm leaning more towards the Yak-7b.


Il-2 3 Series 41 г., field updating
Field-modded Il-2s were traced to ONE regiment with just a few aircraft modified. At Stalingrad first examples of factory-produced Il-2s with gunners appeared, but the single-seaters without "trim weight in the back" were the overwhelming majority (and suffered badly at the hands of german fighters).


Yak-1б, Yak-7б, Yak-9, Lagg -3 -35
No disagreement here. Last Yak-7b production batch was actually a Yak-9 with the old designation.


Since November P-40 m105
IIRC the P-40M-105 was limited to the area of Leningrad with about 40 planes modified. There were P-40 present at Stalingrad, but I have no information on the subtypes. Could be P-40C or E I think.


Hurri 2б, FieldMod was later.
Neg. "Black Cross / Red Star III" gives a full IAD (IIRC 235. IAD / 8.VA) with 5 regiments equipped with modified Hurricanes (modification was standard procedure for all L&L Hurricanes - soviet armament and new upgraded armor plate behind cockpit).


Since November 42 Вf-109 G2.
G-2 became standard much earlier. III./JG 52 received the new aircraft in June, II./JG 52 followed in July and I./JG 52 in late July/August. JG 3 received the aircraft throughout August and September, I./JG 53 came to Tuzov airfield (northwest of Kalatch) equipped with G-2 in August 1942.

:)



Lovely skins, Thor.

Are you Thor from the Zoo?


The same ;)

stanford
19-07-2007, 10:59
Welcome mate, thanks for the info and I hope to see you flying around on the servers :)

csThor
19-07-2007, 11:20
I'm not so much a flyer than a board wisecrack :D. Offline is more to my liking for various reasons, but as aviation and military history is my hobby I like to offer help to folks asking for it :)

stanford
19-07-2007, 11:27
Sorry to temporarily Hi-Jack the thread, but you'd probably be interested in the Mega Missions run by the guys here and at Historia if you haven't taken part already.

Also, we do a number of "let your hair down" nights for the Syndicate and Server-Supporter members with fun maps (Purple, Orange and Green board names). We've done air racing, bomber dog-fights, TAG, and the soon to be tried "Rescue-Mussolini-in-a-Storch-while-being-shot-at-by-lots-of-other-planes" mission! I'm sure we can tempt you online with those!

irish
19-07-2007, 12:30
Good to get some definitive info from our friends.:)



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/jds1978/03-2.jpg
Monument to Those Who Fought to the Death-"There is No Ground for Us Behind the Volga"

Wing-VO
19-07-2007, 12:39
As I lined out this is the ******* child of the I-16 line. The overwhelming majority of the I-16s never had the ShVAK but the ShKAS armament. IMO the Type 18 is the much better representant for the Ishaks.
:rolleyes:........ You are not right...




G-2 became standard much earlier. III./JG 52 received the new aircraft in June, II./JG 52 followed in July and I./JG 52 in late July/August. JG 3 received the aircraft throughout August and September, I./JG 53 came to Tuzov airfield (northwest of Kalatch) equipped with G-2 in August 1942.

:)

Luftflotte 1 (Northern sector of front)
Stab JG-54 Der Oberstleutnant Ханнес Траутлофт Siverskaya Bf. 109F
I./JG-54 Hauptman Ганс Филипп Krasnjgvardeysk Bf.l09F
II./JG-54 Hauptman Дитер Храбак Relbitsi Bf.l09F/G
III./JG-54 Hauptman Рейнхард Зейлер Siverskaya Bf. 109F

Lw.Kdo Ost (The central sector of front)
Stab JG-51 Der Oberstleutnan Карл-Готфрид Нордман Orel Bf.l09F
I./JG-51 Hauptman Генрих Крафт Vyaz'ma Bf. 109F
II./JG-51 Hauptman Хартман Грассер Оrel Bf.l09F
III./JG-51 Hauptman Ричард Леппла Vyaz'ma Bf.l09F
IV./JG-51 Hauptman Ганс Кнаут Seschinskaya Bf. 109F

Luftflotte 4 (Southern sector of front)
Stab JG-З Der Oberst Гюнтер Лютцоф Millerovo-Northern Bf. 109F
I./JG-3 Hauptman Герг Михалик Morozovskaya Bf. 109F
II./JG-3 Der Major Курт Брандль Миллерово Bf.l09F
III./JG-3 Der Major Карл-Гейнц Грейсерт Millerovo Bf. 109F
Stab JG-52 Der Major Герберт Инхефильд Taganrog Bf. 109F
II./JG-52 Hauptmanн Йоханнес Штейнхоф Taganrog Bf.l09F
III./JG-52 Der Major Хубертус фон Бонин Kharkov Bf. 109F/G
1./JG-53 Der Major Герберт Камински Kharkov Bf. 109F/G
Stab JG-77 Der Major Гордон Голлоб Kastornaya Bf. 109F
II./JG-77 Hauptman Антон Мардер Kastornay Bf. 109E/F
III./JG-77 Hauptman Курт Уббен Kerch'-IV Bf.l09F

Luftflotte 5 (Arctic regions)
II./JG-5 Hauptman Хорст Карганико Петсамо Bf. 109E/F
III./JG-5 Hauptman Гюнтер Шольц Петсамо Bf.l09E/F

In total / efficient 549/341
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/09/07.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/ - basing in air stations


Even in German sources it is underlined that that final reequipment
on G2 has occured in October, November.
:)
Reequipment passed as follows - the squadron was allocated to Germany, received machines and 6-8 weeks was retrained. Then it was allocated on front.

F/G means that G2 passed field tests in different conditions.

On arms USSR (CCCP) - it was necessary to tell that Stalingrad (Сталинград) for that time the basic fight and on it planes participated in fights mass-produced in 42 year all.

Sorry off top.

BGs_Ricky
19-07-2007, 12:50
According to the following sources JG52 and I/JG53 were fully equipped with G-2 in August 42.
I and II/JG3 converted on G-2 in September - October, III/JG3 at the end of the year
II/JG77 still operated F models in the summer but was not directly involved over Stalingrad, III/JG77 converted on G-2 during August and was redeployed in September on the Leningrad front.


http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg53.html

csThor
19-07-2007, 13:15
Sorry, Wing-VO, but what BGs_Ricky posted is true. If you want I'll look up exact dates from "Black Cross / Red Star III" later when I get home, but for example III./JG 52 was simply send to Kharkov (I think it was Kharkov) and received a bunch of new planes. The conversion method you describe was used with JG 54 and the Fw 190s, but even that was speeded up later.

As I said "my source" is "Black Cross / Red Star III" which I consider the book on the aerial engagements during the german summer offensive and the air combat over Stalingrad prior to "Uranus".

stanford - I know about the Megamissions, but I'm in Germany so time is a problem. Secondly my job requires me to get up at half past 5 in the morning so I am going to bed early. Otherwise I'm no good for anything the next day :D

Wing-VO
19-07-2007, 14:27
:)
It agree
Look G2 in the end of everyone page on each group.
http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg3.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg52.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg77.htm

Wing-VO
19-07-2007, 14:50
On these data only JG52 has started to receive G2 in August-September. But it was at war on two fronts and Caucasus and Stalingrad.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg3.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg3.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg3.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg52.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg52.html


http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg77.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg77.html

Algorex
19-07-2007, 15:15
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg52.html
What it says for July and August 1942

At the beginning of 7.42 II/JG52 had 26 Bf 109F-4s. During the month it received 31 F-4s, none from the factory, 1 repaired and 30 tranfered from other units. During the month it lost 57 F-4s, 3 in operations, 8 non-operarional losses, 46 to to reconditioning, none tranfered. This leaves the unit 0 Bf 109F-4 for the next month.

At the beginning of 7.42 II/JG52 had 0 Bf 109G-2s. During the month it received 5 G-2s, 5 from the factory, none repaired and none tranfered from other units. During the month it lost 0 G-2s, 0 in operations, 0 non-operarional losses, 0 to reconditioning, none tranfered. This leaves the unit 5 Bf 109G-2s for the next month.

At the beginning of 8.42 II/JG52 had 5 Bf 109G-2s.During the month it received 48 G-2s, 48 from the factory, none repaired and none tranfered from other units. During the month it lost 18 G-2s, 3 in operations 7 non-operarional losses, 0 to to reconditioning, 8 tranfered. This leaves the unit 35 Bf 109G-2s for the next month.

csThor
19-07-2007, 15:27
"Black Cross - Red Star Volume III" page 245

Appendix III
Luftflotte 4 Order of Battle August 20 1942

[SNIP]

Fighters
Stab/JG 3 - Bf 109 F-4
I./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-4/trop
II./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-4/trop & Bf 109 G-2
III./JG 3 - Bf 109 F-4/trop
Stab/JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2 (Terek sector)
II./JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2
III./JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2 (detatchment at Stalingrad, rest Terek sector)
15.(kroat)/JG 52 - Bf 109 G-2 (Caucasus)
I./JG 53 - Bf 109 G-2

Quote from "Graf & Grislawski - A pair of Aces" page 102:

"... On 9 July III./JG 52 was transfered back to Uman to re-equip with the new Bf 109 G version. [...] Brought back in mid-July [July 19, according to www.ww2.dk], and operating from Taganrog, III./JG 52 was directed against Rostov. ..."

And the links you posted are showing the following (an example):

Stab/JG 52 - first Bf 109 G-2 received in August (10 planes)
I./JG 52 - first Bf 109 G-2 received in July (40 planes)
II./JG 52 - first Bf 109 G-2 received in July (5 planes), conversion completed in August (48 aircraft)
III./JG 52 - first Bf 109 G-2 received in July (20 planes brought up to 33 at the month's end)


Bottom line is: JG 52 received the Gustav as early as July (not June - that date belongs to JG 54, mea culpa :o ) and I./JG 53 was re-equipped with the Bf 109 G-2 at Uman between July 11 and July 15. JG 3 soldiered on longer with it's F-4 (mostly F-4/trop) and received new G-2 "on the fly" (for example Stab/JG 3 is known to operate G-2s while I. and III./JG 3 kept their F-4s for quite a long time). :)