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NS-IceFire
21-07-2007, 16:09
This should make Forktail happy! Iron Curtain in the original Berlin map format is back on my priority list. I'll post screen shots and plane lists as soon as I can get away from some other stuff today.

I decided to stay away from the jets on this one...I'll do a proper 1946 scenario soonish (always wanted to do one).

Firelok
21-07-2007, 23:20
I'll do a proper 1946 scenario soonish (always wanted to do one).
A dogfight map styled around your Greenhearts 46 mini-campaign could be really cool.:)
But Iron Curtain is a bit of a wow! idea Spit25lbs and Tempest vs La7s woof! maybe even a whiff of late-war Luftwaffe for both sides:eek:

NS-IceFire
22-07-2007, 20:39
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/iron01.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/iron02.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/iron03.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/iron04.jpg
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/imgs/iron05.jpg

Soviets (RED):
La-7 (3xB20) = 25
P-63C
Pe-2 Series 359
Yak-3P
Yak-3 VK-107
Yak-9M
Yak-9UT
Il-2 Type M3
Il-10

Allies (BLUE):
A-20G
B-25J
P-38L Late
P-47D Late
P-51D-20
Do-335 = 15 (West German)
Beaufighter Mk 21
F4U-1C (French)
MustangIII = 25
SpitfireMkIX25lbs
TempestMkV

So...lots of firepower to play with...some heafty soft and hard targets to pummel and a unique mix of early cold war gone hot action. The hardest part will probably be getting people to read the briefing and not be confused when picking their planes. The Do-335 I decided to select as the "West German" contribution to the fight against the Soviets. Not sure if I wanted to do an "East German" contribution as well? The F4U-1C is supposed to represent Corsairs that the French Navy received and I thought the Allies could use another heavy hitter to try and balance out the light, fast, and well armed Yaks and La-7s.

I'm going to send Firelok a "complete" version now as my computer is going psycho again. It was randomly resetting and my joystick, mouse, and sound is not working properly either...so something is wrong. Probably PSU. Anyways I want to get it off before something else goes more wrong.

Firelok
22-07-2007, 22:46
Yak3 vs Spit's :eek:
I shall have a look and upload this ASAP.
I hope folks appreciate the extra hassle of making lots of US and UK objects 'Blue' rather than usual 'Red', I certainly do, hats off to you mate.
You are right to expect to see lots of crazy markings until people get used to it.

Have uploaded this... IronCurtain.mis

stanford
23-07-2007, 10:15
Looks awesome, Ice. Perhaps a nice big message at the top of the brief on this one saying "Read the brief, fool!"

MajorDamage
23-07-2007, 10:21
Not only Yaks vs Spits but La7's vs Tempests :cool:

irish
23-07-2007, 11:43
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/jds1978/commanderof1starmoredgag.jpg

Finally we'll get to confirm what we allready know.....the P51/Tempest combo will lay low Stalin's junk

Firelok
23-07-2007, 11:47
Looks awesome, Ice. Perhaps a nice big message at the top of the brief on this one saying "Read the brief, fool!"

Stanford, they won't read it even if it's addressed to them:D

NS-IceFire
23-07-2007, 23:10
I had considered writing that yes...but I figured even on the first line its a lost cause. :D

stanford
23-07-2007, 23:14
Well I must say, I only played for 15 minutes but I did like this map. My La-7 was out-turned by a Spitfire, and I was shot down chasing a Do-335 with GERMAN markings. Get that.

Maybe not everyone is crazy :)

Algorex
23-07-2007, 23:16
Mikhail gives this a Gorbachev rating of

http://history.enotes.com/images/peoples/tpc_0003_0001_0_img0351.jpg

5/5

MD_Warlock
23-07-2007, 23:17
Note to pilots--don't dogfight a IL-10 on the deck in a P51. IL10 out-turns, out-climbs, and out-guns it, only hope in a Mustang is to run...found that out the hard way today on this map :(. Map looked great though.

stanford
23-07-2007, 23:19
Haha I saw that. The plane is a beast, but you looked far sexier in your Stang :)

MajorDamage
23-07-2007, 23:35
This is a very cool map. Very interesting latewar matchups - everyone's totally confused because the usual rules don't apply any more - brilliant.

I was worried all the different markings for the blue team would be hard to enforce but surprisingly most people seemed to get it. Weird to see German, French, British and US markings all on the same side but there you go - that was the Cold War for you.

Can we have C47's doing the Berlin airlift? :p

NS-IceFire
23-07-2007, 23:41
Can't wait to fix my computer and have a go at it myself. Glad its a hit!

Firelok
23-07-2007, 23:48
Yep worked well, some crazy low-alt furballs.
Only a tiny technical criticism the Blue railway/Trench Defence targets was a little laggy from AAA. As far as I could tell there is M16 halftracks, BOFORS and some .50cals too. First pass this did cut my FPS a lot, perhaps less active AAA but what there is a bit nastier (late-war German flak?) the .50's were popping away but weren't hitting anything.

NS-IceFire
24-07-2007, 03:14
Ahh ok. I'll have a look at redoing the flak in that area. Were the M16's and other flak setups in the other areas ok? Just at the Allied train station?

Firelok
24-07-2007, 04:07
I got shot at each time I went to the others:D and never got there.
the targets number were a little screwy too but I fixed them.


1=1 0 0 0 750 44412 12619 500 ; Allied (blue) tank group
1=1 0 0 0 750 40082 23542 850 ; Allied supply and rail station


1=1 0 0 0 750 44412 12619 500 ; Allied (blue) tank group
2=1 0 0 0 750 40082 23542 850 ; Allied supply and rail station

When I saw the in-game <targets command report two groups of same number in same grid that both dropped at the same time. I thought Ah HA! from having done that little glitch soo many time myself. So I fixed the typo causing it and fixed Luzon too (same typo.)

MD_Warlock
24-07-2007, 04:14
Haha I saw that. The plane is a beast, but you looked far sexier in your Stang :)

Well gee thanks, and I didn't even shave my legs! :D

irish
24-07-2007, 14:33
Haha I saw that. The plane is a beast, but you looked far sexier in your Stang :)


wasn't the IL10's NATO codename BEAST?

NS-IceFire
24-07-2007, 23:27
wasn't the IL10's NATO codename BEAST?

Yep...I think so!

Boemher
26-07-2007, 00:43
One request

Please re consider the Yak-3 Vk-107's inclusion. When you review its performance on IL2 Compare it is simply too uber in comparison to any other late war prop fighter. It is better at altitude than the P 47D Late, faster than a P51 D, has a 900 km/h dive limit speed - again better than the P51 or Spitfire and it has an excellent turning circle.

Yak-9U imo would offer better plane balance , while I remember reading somewhere that the Yak-3 VK-107 wasnt produced in great numbers because it wasnt as good as the Yak 9U. Im not 100% on that but there was definitely something up with it which ofcourse isnt reflected in its IL2 incarnation.

NS-IceFire
26-07-2007, 00:51
On the other hand its firepower sucks compared to anything late war. For whatever reason they gave it a UBS and a ShVAK. It should have 3 B-20 cannons like the Yak-3P.

I'll have to try it for myself but I think its a bit of a sleeper hit and we don't have it on any maps yet. If we have to take it out thats ok...it can go on the 1946 map no problem.

Boemher
26-07-2007, 01:08
Your correct it is a 1946 plane and that its fire power does suck, but in comparison to a P51 D or a Mustang III the Yak 3's armament all of a sudden doesnt seem that bad. Especially when matched to a plane which can out run, out climb, out dive and out turn (except Spitfire) all enemy single engined fighters. Its performance at altitude rocks.

Its not like a traditional Russian fighter where you can fly around at 4000m and be safe, or you can escape by diving away from it. It is quite simply the best raw performance piston engined fighter in the game.

People consider the La7 uber. Now imagine an La7 that does its stuff at all altitudes and has as good a break up speed as a Fw 190 D9:

It is basically a 46 prop plane up against 44 Western Allied stuff. Like pitting a Yak 1b against a 9lb Tempest or something like that.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/Yak3VK.jpg

NS-IceFire
26-07-2007, 01:11
Mmm yeah...might need to rethink it. I guess we need Bearcats and Sea Furys for this guy. Wait till I get a new replacement computer (this is my moms I'm typing from...it does e-mail and solitare).

Firelok
26-07-2007, 01:11
I think it's the La7 B20 that's the real slayer on reds on this map. We have only run it once and reds got 47 kills to 20 (a very big difference.) It didn't seem like such a gap between the sides TBO when flying this the other day. Browsing the map events in detail I see a lot of unprovoked crashes in Spit25lbs but air kills seem to favour the La7 a lot. The La7 is easier to use than any Yak perhaps that's why, all the other late Yak types are here anyways Yak-3P,Yak-9M,Yak-9UT.

Choice of planes on Reds was la7 B20, P63 and IL10 for the most part only a few coosing the Yak's.

NS-IceFire
26-07-2007, 01:23
I'd like to see myself, Boemher, Algore, System, Firelok, and a few others take it up on the Red team and see what happens when were flying our favourite Western Allied fighter.

I'm curious to see if the Spitfire pilots thought they could get away with out turning the opposition as they normally do and all got caught by the La-7s or if they were really that overpowering.

I see what Boemher is saying...IL-2 Compare shows it to be quite the performer and above what I was expecting from it. Everyone still loves that La-7. If we have to remove that and the 3xB20 then so be it. The two cannon version was still more popular even after the war until the La-9 could be brought in....now that thing is a nightmare. Worse turn but faster in all respects and with 3x23mm cannon.

Boemher
26-07-2007, 01:26
La7 is a good plane but it has its weaknesses. As soon as this map gets a few full houses Im sure the whole La7 vs Spitfire thing will even out. On the Korea map the Tempest was enough to cause the La7 major problems in a dogfight so maybe just poor piloting on the Spits part for that one night.

The Yak is a more difficult plane to fly, but its performance more than makes up for this. It is essentially a great plane, with no restrictions other than that it doesnt have 4 x 20mm or 30 mm cannons.

The P47 D Late is a monster up high, the Yak pees all over it according to compare. As it does over the P51 too.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/p74.jpg

Algorex
26-07-2007, 08:54
I spent the map shooting spitfires down in my il-10, which has the performance of the bf 109G-6 (ingame) but also the firepower and durability of the sturmovik.

Boemher
26-07-2007, 11:29
I plane to spend the map shooting down IL-10s in my Tempest V Algore, but Id like to have the capability to run away when some angry escort fighters turn up. If the Yak-3 VK-107 gets on my 6 I'll be screwed however. Faster, same dive limit, better climb, better turn, better visibility (much) and its made out of Oleg Patented 20mm resisting Damage ModelTM

On the Korea Map I had to shoot at La7s until the blew up because their engines and wings seemed to be bullet proof :D

NS-IceFire
27-07-2007, 03:24
Fortunately the Tempest has no shortage of an ability to blow up the enemy :D

Yeah I think the Yak will have to ship out till it can face some jets.

Firelok
27-07-2007, 04:50
Fortunately the Tempest has no shortage of an ability to blow up the enemy :D

Yeah I think the Yak will have to ship out till it can face some jets.

Are you thinking of a straight removal? or a replacement with something slightly more sedate, La5FN for example?:eek:

On more general level, if Blues (UN?) are still getting a thrashing at the hands of the Soviets all singing all dancing front-line fighters what could we do?

Swap out the La7 B20 too?
Replace the Do335 with something more dangerous from the Luftwaffe line-up?

I know we have only tested once but the result really suprised me I thought the late-war Spits would have caused a lot more trouble in the furballs.Most importantly the test was very well recieved as an idea and an experience.

Boemher
27-07-2007, 13:44
The Yak 3 VK-107 has an ideal replacement in the Yak9U which has great performance but just not as great.

I cant believe that the UN side got their asses handed to them. I suppose that not many UN aircraft have firepower approaching the Mk 108 or 4 x Mg 151 level and maybe Russian DMs are adjusted to fighting against such firepower. Id like to play this map and see how it plays out.

Algorex
27-07-2007, 14:01
Russians captured enough FW-190Ds to equipt a fighter regiment in the baltic during the early days after the war. I say no more *nudge nudge*

irish
27-07-2007, 15:43
Frankly, IMNSHO the inclusion of the Spitfire on any map is to the detrement (sp?) of the Allies as a whole.

Before the torches and pitchforks come out, let me explain. In reality, the Spitfire was an awesome plane....good performance, good armament and flown by total professionals. In a DF server, OTOH, it tends to be flown by point whores, kill stealers, people who think high altitude is around 1200m yadda yadda....In other words, people I would rather not fly with.

In order for The Western Powers to win this map, they are going to have to be very disciplined. The Spitfire is not going to be of much use here. My prediction? Anytime you see half (or more than half) of the UN pilots flying Spits, they are going to lose.

This isn't a plea to remove the Spitfire. Just a few observations.

It would be real interesting to see the outcome if you were to stick more than a few real regular killers on TS, have them fly a combination of P51's/ P47's/Tempests and see what happens.

NS-IceFire
27-07-2007, 22:15
I agree completely Irish. The Spitfire is a great plane but it does attract those types of pilots and when faced against a determined opposition they get themselves wiped out for so many different reasons.

My feeling is, not having been there, that the map needs to run several more times and hopefully at least once so I can see whats going on first hand.

Boemher
30-07-2007, 16:32
I agree with you Irish, however harsh may it sound. Flying the Spitfire against VVS types requires much more from the average Spitfire pilot who is used to shooting down Bf 109s and Fw 190s. The VVS planes are much closer to the Spitfire in manuverability and generally faster in performance so unless the Spitfire pilot is on the top of his game it will be much harder for him.

In a way it is easier to fly the heavier US and RAF types like the P51, 47 and Tempest simply because you have to fly using 'safer' tactics from the onset, and you have to fly in your own performance envelope. In the Spitfire you can get lazy and just enter any dogfight and expect to have a better than evens chance of winning against most Luftwaffe opposition bar the Bf 109 G2. Flying a plane which strengths are the opposite of the La7 and Yak 3 is the key to success on this map I think, Russian types barring the Yak 9U and Yak 3 VK 107 just dont like flying and fighting at over 400mph.

KaiserB_uk
31-07-2007, 10:03
I joined for the last twenty minutes or so of this map last night and really enjoyed it - I was a noob at first and flew a Spit in which I managed to down an La I think (despite forgetting I had 'boost' available :D), then got involved in some almighty scraps in a Tempest.

Blue lost the map (mine was the last blue plane, lost to Thor) but I wasn't on long enough to really see why. But I liked it - plenty of really good, fast and heavily armed planes on both sides.

ali
31-07-2007, 10:37
there were some crazy dogfights going on last night about 2 mins away from the blue spit base which made it hard as there was no time to gain any height. In the end I went to the other base and flew p51.

Boemher
31-07-2007, 10:39
I loaded this yesterday to 'test' it :D Server was packed, regulars were flying on both teams and people were begging for an extension. I added 25 minutes and 1 or 2 minutes before the end the Blue team ran out of planes. I think the Red team still had 18 available or something like it. For much of the map Blues were caught continually by high Russian aircraft bouncing them as soon as they took off. Dont know how but I had taken off, completed a circuit of the runway and as I levelled of to climb I got attacked by a Yak that must have been at 4000m! How he had travelled all the way across the map as quickly is beyond me. I think its probably to do with some people load the map immediately whereas these days it takes me 5 minutes sometimes.

The IL10 was a strong presence BBB_Hyperion was boom and zooming with one all through the map. He got his fair share of kills and the combination of very well armed, very well armoured fast and manuverable IL10 covered by very well armed, fast and manuverable and bullet proof La7s was almost overwhelming - but not to the point where it wasnt fun anymore.

The Red VVS side commented on chat a couple of times that the Blue side were displaying good team work. There were countless large dogfights involving 7 or more aircraft, with a few Blue players on comms we were able to hold our own .... well almost we took fairly constant beatings. Although I wasnt killed by enemy fire I had to rtb at least 3 times heavily damaged and bailed once over base with a wounded pilot. I only saw one or two players go for the targets here, initially there was even the odd B25 but soon that malarky was given up in face of the Red onslaught. Some IL10s found time to hit targets in between booming and zooming too.

Sonko flew the Mustang III for much of this and commented that the .50 cals barely scratched the Russian planes, while System later commented that the last time he played this map he downed 6 or 7 La7s turn fighting in his P47. So the true effectiveness of US planes armament lies somewhere between those two extremes I suspect.

I as you guessed flew the Tempest for the maps duration. Got 7 enemy plus 1 friendly destroyed dying only once when rammed by the afore said idiot in the Spitfire. Emmena who I think I have had to kick in the past, cut in on me, rammed me then disconnected from the game not to get any neg points only to rejoin straight afterwards. It is much harder work flying against Russian planes than Late war German types. They are faster, tougher and more manuverble. One of the only positives I took away from this match up was I could out run La7s in my Tempest. I got caught over their lines and was chased determinedly for 20 minutes by 2 x La7s. One gave up presumambly engine cooked or low on fuel while the other hung on for grim death in a chase that took me over their base, way off the map, then resurfacing deep behind our lines after calling in Sonko and Kaisers assistance.

The IL10 is very tough to destroy even for 4 x 20mm, was being boomed and zoomed by Hyperion and I caught him at the top of his zoom climb almost stationary. In other words the perfect gunnery situation. I opened fire at point blank range hammering his plane and nothing happened. Ok his pilot died getting a 20mm shell in its head :o but there was no visible damage to his plane. Almost any other type would have blown up under that kind of fire. Other peoplesaid that they could blow its one of its wings off. Unless you hit it from a high deflection angle it is very well protected.

I dont think the Red side needs a Dora 9, play this one or two more times befoe deciding but I'd consider reducing or removing the La7 x 3 and the Yak 3P because the Red team have a definite fire power and DM advantage over most of the RAF/USAAF aircraft here. P63 was hardly used but I did catch a glipse of one. Also how about an airstarted Tu2 to try and encourage some dedicated bombing on the Russian side?

FlyingFinn
31-07-2007, 11:42
Wow, sounds like a very exotic map. Shame I didn't play last night.

Firelok
31-07-2007, 12:19
Stats say each side downed 41 aircraft a piece and it looks like Reds chose to use the IL10 purely as a fighter (4 AAA and a wagon was their total ground kills.) Reds already have the Pe2 and the IL2-3M aswell as this aircraft so along with the P63s not inconsiderable bombload they already have the ability to blast the ground targets pretty quick I think. I can't see the Tu2 making any difference TBO. I inclined to say lose the Yak 9VK107 for a standard Yak9U and lose the La7 B20 for a standard La7 too. As for the IL10 it gets used like this on Manchuria too lumbering (at 550kph :) ) through the dogfights annihilating targets of opportunity not unlike a heavily armoured version of a 110. Not quite the dedicated ground attack aircraft.:D

Fusek
31-07-2007, 14:42
Lets rename the map 'Beast' and get rid of all the other red planes :P

I really liked the map, flying for red. Most of the time I was covering BBB_Hyperion's 6 in an IL-10. Its a real beast and can take a severe beating and still take you home.

Algorex
31-07-2007, 15:05
Stats say each side downed 41 aircraft a piece and it looks like Reds chose to use the IL10 purely as a fighter (4 AAA and a wagon was their total ground kills.) Reds already have the Pe2 and the IL2-3M aswell as this aircraft so along with the P63s not inconsiderable bombload they already have the ability to blast the ground targets pretty quick I think. I can't see the Tu2 making any difference TBO. I inclined to say lose the Yak 9VK107 for a standard Yak9U and lose the La7 B20 for a standard La7 too. As for the IL10 it gets used like this on Manchuria too lumbering (at 550kph :) ) through the dogfights annihilating targets of opportunity not unlike a heavily armoured version of a 110. Not quite the dedicated ground attack aircraft.:D

The blue tank target was quite difficult to attack properly, it was mostly shermans (23mm proof) spread out so you could get more than 2 with PTABs (if you were lucky) and the il-10 only carries 4 rockets (kills two tanks) . Air was dense with spitfires so i had to df in my il-10, little hope for bring the 45mm armed il-2 there to tackle with the tanks.

Firelok
10-08-2007, 08:42
Ok, in an effort to get this moving along, I'd like to test it without the Yak 3VK107 just the Yak3P etc.
I think it's a popular scenario idea and something lots of folks would like to see in the cycle.

NS-IceFire
11-08-2007, 04:35
*crossing my fingers* that my new computer parts arrive by next week. I was sort of hoping for them to be here this week...but alas not.

I'm going to fix up the Shermans a bit and arrange them in slightly neater rows while still looking like a battle formation. That should provide some PTAB opportunities. Then I'll remove the Yak-3P and VK107 and send that along.

Firelok
11-08-2007, 10:50
*crossing my fingers* that my new computer parts arrive by next week. I was sort of hoping for them to be here this week...but alas not.

I'm going to fix up the Shermans a bit and arrange them in slightly neater rows while still looking like a battle formation. That should provide some PTAB opportunities. Then I'll remove the Yak-3P and VK107 and send that along.

THe Blues won on ground targets last night, plane kills 21 to 19, all very close and highly tense. All I removed was the Yak3 VK107. I think the Yak-3P is OK to have in (it has some flaws after all.)
It was a lot of fun and I can't see anything that would stop it's inclusion as is.

System-M-
01-09-2007, 17:08
I was reading up on the FW-190 and found out that the French had some squadrons of 190-As in the air force in 1946. What about adding the A6 or A8? and allowing them to be french marked planes on the US and RAF side as part of the occupying forces in western Germany?

Algorex
01-09-2007, 18:45
I was reading up on the FW-190 and found out that the French had some squadrons of 190-As in the air force in 1946. What about adding the A6 or A8? and allowing them to be french marked planes on the US and RAF side as part of the occupying forces in western Germany?



NC.900
In the immediate post-war period, the French Armee de l'Air operated FW 190 fighters (French designation NC.900). 64 FW 190A-5s and A-8s were built in 1945 and 1946 by the Société Nationale de Construction Aéronautiques du Centre (S.N.C.A.C) at Cravant. Cravant had been a Luftwaffe repair facility, and many abandoned FW 190s were captured there by the Allies in October 1944. It is possible that some captured German components were used to build the French FW 190s. Armee de l'Air FW 190s only saw service for a few years, before more modern fighters were acquired. The principal operator of the NC.900 was GC 111/5 Normandie Niemen.

Now all we need is a skin or two ;)

Firelok
01-09-2007, 21:01
The principal operator of the NC.900 was GC 111/5 Normandie Niemen.These guys were given their Yak's to fly back to France too,French FW's and Yak3's :eek: :eek: :eek:

NS-IceFire
01-09-2007, 23:14
THe Blues won on ground targets last night, plane kills 21 to 19, all very close and highly tense. All I removed was the Yak3 VK107. I think the Yak-3P is OK to have in (it has some flaws after all.)
It was a lot of fun and I can't see anything that would stop it's inclusion as is.

Sounds great. Still haven't come across it just yet but sounds like things are pretty much where they should be now.

ForkTailedDevil
01-09-2007, 23:28
Wow is this in rotating now? I have been playing the World in Conflict demo. I swear that the commies win every time, no matter which side I play for. Anyway I will be looking for this one thanks again Ice.

NS-IceFire
02-09-2007, 14:57
Yeah I believe its in regular rotation now. It proved to be a success in the initial testing. I basically made it on your initial request ForkTail so hopefully you enjoy the creation :)

System-M-
02-09-2007, 15:22
Now all we need is a skin or two ;)

Flying-Legends.net Search Author Skunk he has done French 190