PDA

View Full Version : P40 Orientated Western Front Map



stanford
26-07-2007, 09:42
Any ideas? I want to have a crack at map making... everyone better duck :D

Algorex
26-07-2007, 10:01
If you want to go with what actually happened your best bet is to do a desert map. (it'll also work nicely with your neville duke skin)

If you want to extend your area of operations you could do a eastern front map with just P-40E and hurricane II against bf 109F-4 and finnish brewster, as the these were the main fighters types around Lake Ladoga during the autunm 1942.

stanford
26-07-2007, 10:05
I was thinkng it might have to be desert - not that that's a bad thing. I did want to try and avoid Eastern maps.

Firelok
26-07-2007, 10:06
What might be unusual stanford is an early USAAF desert map. The USAAF fought against the Vichy regime in the Western Desert (Algiers etc.) I've seen some Ok missions/campaigns about it with the LaGG as a quite convincing stand-in for the DeWotine D520.

The P40s (incl. the Tomahawk) are on a fair few maps but often plays second fiddle to other Aircraft,(especially in terms of popularity.)

I'm thinking of our early desert airforce maps with Hurricanes and Tomahawks and quite a few of the Italian theatre maps it's on too. Some USAAF P40 units flew with the Desert airforce before the Torch landings but I have to say we already have this period really well covered on all three servers.

A bit of research about what happened around the Operation Torch landings might throw up a few Gems. P40s onshore F4F3 offshore for example could be the begginings of a real unusual (for us at least.) early western pure US planeset.

stanford
26-07-2007, 10:10
I'll look in to it, sir!

As I say it was just an idea, I really want an unusal map where people would choose the P40 as their ride.

Once I've done research I'll post a few ideas, though I'm not confident I have the creative flair of our formidable map-makers. On that note, if what I come up with is a load of expletive, feel free to just come out and say it. I genuinely don't get offended :D

Algorex
26-07-2007, 10:19
What might be unusual stanford is an early USAAF desert map. The USAAF fought against the Vichy regime in the Western Desert (Algiers etc.) I've seen some Ok missions/campaigns about it with the LaGG as a quite convincing stand-in for the DeWotine D520.

The P40s (incl. the Tomahawk) are on a fair few maps but often plays second fiddle to other Aircraft,(especially in terms of popularity.)

I'm thinking of our early desert airforce maps with Hurricanes and Tomahawks and quite a few of the Italian theatre maps it's on too. Some USAAF P40 units flew with the Desert airforce before the Torch landings but I have to say we already have this period really well covered on all three servers.

A bit of research about what happened around the Operation Torch landings might throw up a few Gems. P40s onshore F4F3 offshore for example could be the begginings of a real unusual (for us at least.) early western pure US planeset.

I have reseached Torch based map ideas a couple of times, every time i was tempted by the idea of everything on red taking from carriers and landing on a temporary airbase on the beachhead. Main problem has always been the blue opposition, hack fighters seem the only viable option with perhaps some long range stuff from like bf 110 and ju 88 flying in from sicily.

stanford
26-07-2007, 10:58
Torch seems tough, for the reasons Algore has pointed out. In terms of planetset it'd have to be something like Hurri + P40 Vs. 109E/F + 520.

There's just something about putting a LaGG on a desert map that just doesn't sit right! I wonder what that could be :)

I guess I'll keep searching.

Firelok
26-07-2007, 12:21
For the period that it counts as an OK plane, this basically means a desert map.
THis is what UK2 has already in terms of Desert/MTO.(in date order)
Agheila

red
HurricaneMkIIb
TomahawkMkIIa
TomahawkMkIIb
HurricaneMkI
J8A
blue
Bf-109E-4/B
CR_42
G_50
MC-200series3
MC-202_III
Gazala

red
A-20C
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkIIc=10
TomahawkMkIIb
P-40E
blue
Bf-109E-7
Bf-109F-2
G_50
Ju-87D-3
Ju-88A-4=2SC2000;2xSC1800;2SC1000;2xAB1000
MC-200series3
MC-202_VII

Halfa

red
HurricaneMkIIb
HurricaneMkIIc=12
P-40E
SpitfireMkVc=24
blue
Bf-109E-7
Bf-109F-4=24
Ju-87B-2=1SC1000
MC-202_VII

Kasserine

red
A-20C
P-38J
P-39D2
P-40M
SpitfireMkVbLF
blue
Fw-190A-5
He-111H-2
Ju-87D-5
Bf-109G-6
Tunis

red
A-20G
B-25J-1NA
P-38J
P-39N1
P-40M
P-47D-10
BeaufighterMk21
HurricaneMkIIc
SpitfireMkVbCLP
SpitfireMkVc4xH
SpitfireMkIXc=20
blue
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-5=20
He-111H-6
Ju-87D-3
Ju-88A-4
MC-202_III
MC-202_VII

stanford
26-07-2007, 12:32
Aha! May as well scrap it as we have Gazala and Agheila where it's the superior aircraft!

I will come up with a better plan... be sure.

MajorDamage
26-07-2007, 13:22
Torch seems tough, for the reasons Algore has pointed out. In terms of planetset it'd have to be something like Hurri + P40 Vs. 109E/F + 520.

There's just something about putting a LaGG on a desert map that just doesn't sit right! I wonder what that could be :)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Lagg3Series4_D520.jpg

stanford
26-07-2007, 13:23
Send me that skin!

Firelok
26-07-2007, 13:25
It is however an LaGG on a desert map disguised as a D520:D

Are you sure you want that?

MajorDamage
26-07-2007, 13:31
It's at Mission 4 Today here. (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&c=247&page=2)

It says its a Vichy French skin intended for Syria I think. There's also a vpmedia Battle of France D520 hack at Flying Legends.

Dunno how well the Lagg Series 4 matches the D520 in performance, but it might make an interesting match for a P-40.

KaiserB_uk
31-07-2007, 15:28
I've been bored at work today and started looking for Wildcats vs Hawks info (after something that the commentator at Flying Legends said), of course he was referring to Operation Torch. Found this article which is very good:

http://www.history.navy.mil/download/ww2-21.pdf

Don't we have a flyable Hawk75 in the game? Or is it AI only? Anyway, I was toying with the idea of F4-Fs/SBD-3s PLUS Seafires and possibly Hurricanes vs Hawk75/LaGG(D.520)/A20C in a beachhead and attacking french ships in port style scenario...

stanford
31-07-2007, 15:32
Excellent find Kaiser. That's exactly what I couldn't get my mits on!

Algorex
31-07-2007, 15:33
Hawk 75 is very much AI, unfortunately...

KaiserB_uk
31-07-2007, 15:39
Hawk 75 is very much AI, unfortunately...
Ain't that a kick in the head.

irish
01-08-2007, 16:16
My idea for Torch

USN/RAF:
F4F-4 (carrier)
SBD-3 (carrier + airstart)
Seafire L (carrier)(no rockets)

Vichy(Blue)
LaGG3 (D.520)(land base)


Luftwaffe(Blue)
Me110 (airstart to simulate takeoff from Sicily/Sardinia
He111H6 (airstart)

stanford
01-08-2007, 16:25
H6 might need a limited loadout, it's got the big boys!

I suspect everyone will fly Seafires. Perhaps focus just on the US part of the operation? The F4F was the main fighter there anyway.

KaiserB_uk
01-08-2007, 16:32
And the French did have the A20C (export version).

Firelok
01-08-2007, 16:33
USN/RAF:
F4F-4 (carrier)
SBD-3 (carrier + airstart)


Vichy(Blue)
LaGG3 (D.520)(land base)[Rockets locked]


Luftwaffe(Blue)
Me110 (airstart to simulate takeoff from Sicily/Sardinia)[Gunpods locked.]


Taking onboard what stanfords saying and irish's list. Seafires have been sent off to intercept heinkels so neither are available:D
Bf110s (with no stupid guns available) as blue bomberforce.

You end up with a real unusual set of planes and a real limited set too (which is a refreshing difference)

As for the central LaGG(D.520) vs Wildcat stuggle I have no idea if either has the big advantage. Interesting to find out and absolutely unlike any western front map on any of our servers.

Algorex
01-08-2007, 16:43
P-40s off carriers?

http://www.portlyautey.com/P-40.jpg

A excerpt from the WW2 experiences of Daniel B. Rathbun as told by his son, Dan Rathbun. It is a personal account of the first Army Air Force P-40 squadron which was transported and launched off the escort carrier USS Chenango and subsequently landed at Port Lyautey. (http://www.portlyautey.com/Rathbun.htm)

stanford
01-08-2007, 16:46
http://www.petetuson.com/crap/images/laggvsf4f.gif

If we give red 2 fighters, we should try to give blue the same.

Is the P40 an appalling stand-in for the Hawk 75? My knowledge of French aircraft is awful, sadly.

If that was the case you could have P40's on both sides.
--

Regarding performance difference of the F4F and LaGG, the Allies were well aware they were the underdogs in terms of technology, so it's quite accurate.

Algorex
01-08-2007, 16:59
If we give red 2 fighters, we should try to give blue the same.

Is the P40 an appalling stand-in for the Hawk 75? My knowledge of French aircraft is awful, sadly.

If that was the case you could have P40's on both sides.
--

Regarding performance difference of the F4F and LaGG, the Allies were well aware they were the underdogs in terms of technology, so it's quite accurate.

Hawk 81 to stand for hawk 75, not a big leap at all really (except in performance).

irish
01-08-2007, 17:28
I'm all for dismissing the Seafire.

Maybe we should look at an earlier LaGG for the D.520 (ie: series 29)


BTW Algore: it was common practice to send USAAF planes via carrier to parts overseas. They did this with the P47's at the Mariana's for example. Takeoff from the carrier, land at your assigned base

Firelok
01-08-2007, 21:39
Well the D 520 was know for manouverability but it was underpowered and under gunned. Perhaps the earliest LaGG 3 series 4, it turns but not for long and is a lump in a climb.

irish
01-08-2007, 22:18
Well the D 520 was know for manouverability but it was underpowered and under gunned. Perhaps the earliest LaGG 3 series 4, it turns but not for long and is a lump in a climb.

my knowledge of the LaGG series is an absolute zero. follow Fireloks lead. I'm more or less Using the Force (Search Your Feelings......Let GOOOO)

KaiserB_uk
01-08-2007, 22:50
Why Me110 instead of A20C? The Vichy actually had the A20C after all?

irish
01-08-2007, 23:02
yes, they did. However the US wasn't supplying Vichy with spare parts or ammo and i know for a fact that the Me110's were used against the Torch landings

I'm also 90% sure that the A20A's delivered to the French Republic before the German invasion were not in North Africa.
If they were, they didn't fly against the Torch forces. (if they were still even servicible) Give me some time to look into this

stanford
02-08-2007, 09:34
Are we considering the P40 on both sides?

KaiserB_uk
02-08-2007, 10:25
Just prior to the Armistice, all serviceable DB-7s were flown out of France to North Africa, where they were formed into four light bomber squadrons (GB I/32 and II/32 in Morocco and GB I/19 and II/61 in Algeria. These units later became part of the Vichy Air Force, which collaborated with the Germans. When the British attacked the French fleet on July 3, 1940 to prevent it from falling into German hands, DB-7s from GB 1/32 carried out a retaliatory strike against Gibraltar, but did not do any damage or suffer any losses. In November of 1942, during Operation Torch, US Navy carrier based fighters attacked the DB-7s of GB I/32 on the ground and inflicted severe losses on this unit, preventing it from opposing the Allied landing. This little-known service with the Vichy Air Force makes the DB-7 yet another example of an aircraft which fought on both sides in World War 2.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_2.html

I should explain that the Douglas DB-7 was the export version of the A20...

Any chance of these being included for blue? Even if in limited numbers, it will give blue something to attack landing craft with.

stanford
02-08-2007, 10:46
USN:
F4F-4 (carrier)
P40E (carrier)
SBD-3 (carrier + airstart)


Vichy(Blue)
LaGG3 (D.520)(land base)[Rockets locked]
P40E (Hawk 75)(land base)


Luftwaffe(Blue)
Me110 (airstart to simulate takeoff from Sicily/Sardinia)[Gunpods locked.]


The only problem I can see is P40's have no where to land. When they were launched they landed at ground bases that had been captured. Perhaps we can knock up a "temporary" airbase to simulate a captured front line base just for the P40's to land on. I don't know if that will work, mind.

Firelok
02-08-2007, 12:19
The only problem I can see is P40's have no where to land. When they were launched they landed at ground bases that had been captured. Perhaps we can knock up a "temporary" airbase to simulate a captured front line base just for the P40's to land on. I don't know if that will work, mind.

Both of the Desert Maps available have airstrips in the western area of the map.
You don't have to make a horrid landing strip just make this area of map on the red side of the lines an early paratroop capture of the airfield if you like.

Might want to think about earlier versions of the P40s, REDS could have P40C, BLUES the Hawk84 (it's like the P40B I think.)

stanford
02-08-2007, 12:27
I actually forgot we have the P40C :P

I figured this would be on Desert Online. Irish - did you want to make the map, or can I have a stab at it?

Algorex
02-08-2007, 12:53
My humble suggestion

USN/USAAF:
F4F-4 (carrier)
P-40E (carrier)
SBD-3 (carrier + airstart)


Vichy(Blue)
LaGG3 s29 (D.520)(land base)[Rockets and VYa locked]
P-40B/Hawk 81 (Hawk 75)(land base)


Luftwaffe(Blue)
Bf 110G (airstart to simulate takeoff from Sicily/Sardinia)[Locked to E/F standard]

My reasoning behind the red P-40E and blue P-40B is to make the sides a bit more different since the performance doesn't change between the versions only difference would be the looks and armament.

Choosing the correct lagg version is also hard since the difference between the s4 and s29 is quite large, in performance the s29 is slightly faster but it's equipt with slats so it's much more maneuverable, but the s29 is armed with a single cannon and a MG were as the s4 has two laser mgs and a cannon.

stanford
02-08-2007, 13:02
Well the LaGG is superior to the F4F in a number of ways, so I suppose a P40E for the Allies isn't going to imbalnce things terribly.

As for which LaGG to choose, I have no idea.

therealmouss
02-08-2007, 13:31
Well the LaGG is superior to the F4F in a number of ways, so I suppose a P40E for the Allies isn't going to imbalnce things terribly.

As for which LaGG to choose, I have no idea.

if you want to model the D520 then use the yak 1, its the best match and same armament

the lagg is way to heavier to replicate the d520 manoeuvrability

Firelok
02-08-2007, 14:08
Looking at IL2 Compare the 29 series LaGG is the best match for a P40E in terms of making a game of it. The Skin pictured above is for an LaGG series 4, it converts to the 29 series though. Mucking about in QMB suggests LaGG29 and the P40E would work well I think. The LaGG does look very like a D520.

Are we finally going to have a map with all of one side using French Roundels?:D

stanford
02-08-2007, 14:16
Except for those pesky 110's and 75% of the servers pilots, yes! The wrong marking brigade will be out in force for this one.

Would you be so kind as to send me a couple of good example maps for me to look at in FMB, Firelok? I want to try and get it right first time. I want to be MajorDamage.

Oops, forgot address: petetuson at gmail dot com :D

Firelok
02-08-2007, 15:58
What desert-y ones Stan?
I've having big probs with sending eMails at the moment.

A lot of what I would say is covered here...
Map Details tutorial (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=13545)
This has a link to the Rhzev map for examination.

You've got two choices of Desert map, the original one and the new one, which is much nicer. It's called DesertOnline in FMB. I'd suggest a North/South orientation, with Blues using the Desert airfield in the south, carriers near the mouth of the river and reds 'emergency airfield' in the west. Mission4today has Mission Templates for building too, I'd suggest looking at them for ideas then building from scratch. Any questions you have about any map making stuff just ask here you'll get lots of answers immediately.

stanford
02-08-2007, 16:00
Fair enough mate, thanks! I'll crack on to this tonight. Watch me take Operation Torch, and turn it in to Operation Borked.

Firelok
02-08-2007, 16:05
Fair enough mate, thanks! I'll crack on to this tonight. Watch me take Operation Torch, and turn it in to Operation Borked.

I'm sure you'll do very well, and considering the hands-on helping I've given out in other directions before now you can expect as much help as you need from me. I expect flurries of PM's. Half an hour on a quite TS channel could save a mort of explaining too in an IL2 FMB Techies desk sort of way.

stanford
02-08-2007, 16:08
I'll crack on reading the guides and getting more familar, have a stab at the basics and call in Firelok artillery when it all goes pearshaped.

MajorDamage
02-08-2007, 17:51
Good luck with it Stanford - I reckon it's going to be great. I was sort of half-joking when I posted the screenie of the Lagg in French makeup, but the more I look at this the more I think it could be a really good plane match.

stanford
02-08-2007, 19:00
Before I go head long in to this, I wanted to check these front lines aren't going to cause any major issues with game play.

http://www.petetuson.com/crap/images/torchlines.jpg

I realise this puts red at a disadvantage when it comes to ditching/bailing, but that's exactly how it was. The brief is simple: this is D-Day + 2 hours, Rangers have managed to "secure" an emergency base in the desert, lightly defended, and to be used for P40's and emergency landings only. No aircraft will be able to take off from here until the flanks are secured.

Is setting a carrier as a take off base just a case of spanking one in the water, plonking a Home base over it, selecting the plane set?

Also, can fuel tanks be put "inside" static ships? I was thinking of having airbase supply ships a little way off the coast, waiting for the order to land. They'd make nice big explosions if they were picked off...

stanford
02-08-2007, 21:10
Eugh! How can I place a French aircraft... and make it blue? There's going to be neg. scores if I stick them down as red.

Veta
02-08-2007, 21:17
You can change the side (red/blue) of ground objects. There would be a drop down box in the objects window (under the Properties tab next to Army).

stanford
02-08-2007, 21:23
I've selected Stationary Aircraft, as in "Objects" there's no French aircraft. However, if you choose Blue as the army, it only lets you choose traditional axis members... no Vichy France, however.

Veta
02-08-2007, 21:31
Yep because IL2 only caters for a limited number of "nations" (note that RAF and RN are considered separate, just like USAAF, USN and USMC), and even then not quite all of these are available for stationary aircraft.

stanford
02-08-2007, 21:35
I might simply have to avoid placing stationary Hawks, and stick LaGG's with French markings. Shame, really.

Firelok
03-08-2007, 10:38
Stan the important bit about the statics is that the 3d model is loaded when the game starts so go ahead and place all required statics for French aircraft but make them ARMY_NONE. THey show with no markings and don't affect the scores either way and the no-marking ness isn't that visible.
Frontlines look good BTW.

stanford
03-08-2007, 10:42
Trust me to pick a map where the airfields are, let's say, less than defined! Cheers for the tip, I'll do that.

With regards to carriers, is it simply a case of putting down a carrier and putting a home base over it? Will that allow people to take off from them?

Firelok
03-08-2007, 10:48
With regards to carriers, is it simply a case of putting down a carrier and putting a home base over it? Will that allow people to take of from them?

Yes mate, best to edit the sleep setting of the carrier before putting the homebase down. Basically the AAA from carriers is too much for online use and is often more dangerous to those taking off. set the sleep time for 90 minutes for any ships you never want to fire during the mission.

stanford
03-08-2007, 10:51
Ok! And last thing I can think to ask, can I put fuel-tanks/bowsers/explosive things inside a static ship? I'm thinking big explosions when tankers get bombed..?

MajorDamage
03-08-2007, 11:30
Ok! And last thing I can think to ask, can I put fuel-tanks/bowsers/explosive things inside a static ship? I'm thinking big explosions when tankers get bombed..?

I don't think so. If you do this I imagine you'd have to sink the ship first, then the fuel trucks would be visible magically floating on the sea and you could bomb them - probably not the effect you're after. If you want blowey-uppey boats you could try something like this maybe:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/landingcraft.jpg

BTW, on the subject of carriers, might I humbly suggest not using what IL2 calls a 'Generic' US carrier? The Generic carrier actually represents a class of precisely 2 very strange and unique looking ships which were converted battlecruisers, and which only saw action in the Pacific. The Essex is a much better generic carrier - there were 24 of them built and are a pretty good 'standard' carrier appearance wise. I'm pretty sure they have about the same length of flight deck as the Saratoga/Lexington types. You might have already thought of this but I'm just pointing it out because those 'Generic US carriers' keep cropping up everywhere.

MajorDamage
03-08-2007, 11:43
Trust me to pick a map where the airfields are, let's say, less than defined!

Yeah those Desert Online airfields are tricky. If you look at the western end of the field you'll see the markers that show you where the runway centreline is. Draw a line to extend it, (use a flight of aircraft with a couple of waypoints), and then either place more marker objects along the centreline or mark out the runway with campfires. With that particular airfield I think you're safe building on the North side of the road - no spawn points there but anywhere else is dicey. Stick to areas that already have camo nets etc.

stanford
03-08-2007, 11:48
Roger, will do. This will have to put on hold until next week. The GF gets back from her holiday (which I bloody well wasn't invited on) and now expects me to give her the time of day.

Bah. Can't she see I'm busy?

irish
05-08-2007, 22:36
sorry to have abandoned this thread:o

The Generic US Carrier (IIRC) is the Ranger....which coincidently was the CV used to cover the Eastern Torch TF:)

The Essex class didn't go into service until Febuary, 1943


didn't know about the A20's at Torch, good find!:cool: Maybe limit them to 10-15 and do away with the 1000lb bomb load out.

MajorDamage
05-08-2007, 23:31
The Generic US Carrier (IIRC) is the Ranger....which coincidently was the CV used to cover the Eastern Torch TF:)

We don't have the Ranger in game only Lexington, Saratoga, 'Generic' and the 2 Essex class.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/SaratogaClass.jpg
From front to back: Generic carrier, Saratoga, Lexington. The Generic is identical to the Saratoga. The Lexington is the same except for the turrets.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/EssexClass.jpg
The Essex which I humbly submit is a better all-purpose 'generic' US carrier design.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Ranger1942.jpg
The Ranger, which I wasn't familiar with but just went and googled.

I guess neither of IL2's US carrier designs is a specially good match for the Ranger looking at the pics. What gets me about the Saratoga/Lexington is they have a very unusual and distinctive superstructure design that was unique to those 2 ships only. The disadvantage of the Essex though is that the flightdeck is a little shorter than the Generic, so might cause problems for planes with heavy loudouts.

What I'm saying is... errr.. use whichever you like, ignore me. :D

Algorex
06-08-2007, 12:47
We don't have the Ranger in game only Lexington, Saratoga, 'Generic' and the 2 Essex class.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/SaratogaClass.jpg
From front to back: Generic carrier, Saratoga, Lexington. The Generic is identical to the Saratoga. The Lexington is the same except for the turrets.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/EssexClass.jpg
The Essex which I humbly submit is a better all-purpose 'generic' US carrier design.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/matthill999/Ranger1942.jpg
The Ranger, which I wasn't familiar with but just went and googled.

I guess neither of IL2's US carrier designs is a specially good match for the Ranger looking at the pics. What gets me about the Saratoga/Lexington is they have a very unusual and distinctive superstructure design that was unique to those 2 ships only. The disadvantage of the Essex though is that the flightdeck is a little shorter than the Generic, so might cause problems for planes with heavy loudouts.

What I'm saying is... errr.. use whichever you like, ignore me. :D

Personally i like the Essex's flight deck since it's less obstructed by the tower/funnels

irish
06-08-2007, 13:02
You know what, you're right. I must have seen "Generic" a thousand times and just assumed it was a either Lex or Saratoga without even knowing what i was looking at, while at the same time thinking "why doesn't any map maker use the 'Generic?'":eek: ;)


Essex seems the way to go.

You may want to add a few Jeep Carriers for landings or even targets

Algorex
06-08-2007, 13:06
It's a damn shame the jeep carriers are as useless as they are in the game.

irish
06-08-2007, 13:14
It's a damn shame the jeep carriers are as useless as they are in the game.

if they are moving you can takeoff from them. Landing is very difficult (as in real life). Probably want to add them as high value/points targets for Vichy

irish
06-08-2007, 13:27
Stanford: In order to get the effect of headwind (however poor it is) in a DF server with static carriers, you need to face the carriers a certain direction as all maps have the wind coming. what direction that is....i don't know:o

Firelok
06-08-2007, 14:51
Stanford: In order to get the effect of headwind (however poor it is) in a DF server with static carriers, you need to face the carriers a certain direction as all maps have the wind coming. what direction that is....i don't know:o

Is this really true? Wow! I never knew that. I just thought there was no wind on maps at all. If this is true:eek: someone somewhere has worked it out somehow and there is a list to be had. Anyone fancy fishing for an answer on UbiZoo?:D

Zorin
06-08-2007, 14:55
I'd say it comes from the west, cause everything in this game is facing east ;)

stanford
06-08-2007, 14:58
I'll get some bait on the hook and ask now... Is there anything stopping me from having the carrier force move a few hundred metres (say one way point) and then stop? It'd be like the carriers steaming towards N. Africa, and stopping at the desired point. It'd be right at the start of the map, so there's no way Blue's could get there in time to see them moving, but reds would..

By the way, Object 156 is fun!

Firelok
06-08-2007, 14:59
I'd say it comes from the west, cause everything in this game is facing east ;)

He He, very good that man. :D

How would one go about finding out anyway?
some sort of in-game windspeed indicator?

T}{OR
06-08-2007, 15:01
He He, very good that man. :D

How would one go about finding out anyway?
some sort of in-game windspeed indicator?

Yeah, why don't we have them on airfields???

Good one Zorin. :D

Happy
06-08-2007, 15:06
if they are moving you can takeoff from them. Landing is very difficult (as in real life). Probably want to add them as high value/points targets for Vichy

landing isn't to difficult, it's just a shorter runway..more fun

is it possible to make something moving in a dogfight map? I don't think it is..

otherwise 2 moving objects like these carriers would be great.. then again if I'm not mistaken this is only possible in coop's..

MajorDamage
06-08-2007, 15:46
How would one go about finding out anyway?
some sort of in-game windspeed indicator?

I worked out that the wind blows from the south on the Wake Island map. I worked it out by bailing out a few times and watching the direction of my parachute drift relative to ground objects. I presume it's different for each map, and possibly even changes with Cloud settings. It's a thing that's always bugged me about this game - a flight sim where you have no control over the wind direction.

irish
06-08-2007, 16:24
moving ojects are impossible on a DF map :(


I'd say it comes from the west, cause everything in this game is facing east


that sounds right....the worse the weather is, the more wind you get. Clear is either minimal or non-existant

Zorin
06-08-2007, 16:31
Shouldn't the waves be an indicator of the direction of the wind as well?

MajorDamage
06-08-2007, 16:38
I did a bit of a search on Ubi, and to cut a long story short it appears the wind always blows from either the North or South depending on map. The wind is only really noticeable on Rain and Thunderstorm settings, you get a small amount also in Poor setting, almost none on any clearer weather settings. This was according to the RAF squad who tested it out by spawning on carriers pointing in different directions and looking at the IAS.

irish
06-08-2007, 17:07
there ya go!:D

so basically it's a nominal effect until you get bad weather?

Happy
06-08-2007, 17:30
there ya go!:D

so basically it's a nominal effect until you get bad weather?

let it RAIN, oh let it RAAAAIIIINNNN..........:D

most maps are always with the sun shining or with a few cumultus around.

more sunsets, haze or thunderstorms I would welcome that.. or just a very bad storm, strap yourself in and work hard to stay on runway and take-off. :eek:

stanford
06-08-2007, 18:41
*cough* North Africa!

MajorDamage
06-08-2007, 20:09
*cough* North Africa!

Can we have it snowing?

irish
06-08-2007, 20:41
Actually, the weather was overcast for much of the Torch time period.
I was going to bring up that the weather ought to be set at "Poor" for this map

stanford
06-08-2007, 21:08
Ok, well I'll deal with the weather when I'm near to finishing.

A proposition: The North Western airfield (on the coast) has been recently captured, but not 100% secured by the initial landings. As I want this to be an emergency landing base I was thinking of hiding some AAA in the hills surrounding it, making it a dangerous place to land.

Obviously if tactical air-strikes can disable the AAA, Reds just got themselves a nice little land base from which they can take off P-40's with larger bomb loads than the carriers permit. So, if you like, it's a real time advance in territory - but only if they managed to destroy the AAA.

No good? Good?

Zorin
06-08-2007, 21:34
As long as people don't get upset by being killed in their P40s while spawning on that base before all AAA is destroyed it sounds like a fine idea.

stanford
06-08-2007, 21:40
That's the catch. Although, should they read the brief they'll be ok! *cough*

irish
06-08-2007, 22:54
GREAT IDEA! IRL the 82nd AB & Army Rangers were tasked with clearing the Tafaraoui Airfield for emergency use.

Maybe put some white smoke near the AA sites to indicate that they have been marked by the Airborn troops for destruction by Navy planes. If all else fails the P40E's can ditch by a CV and count as a landing

Just be sure to include it (possibly in BIG BOLD LETTERING) in the brief.

Plus we can discount the inland AB as a spawn point alltogether and have the Army planes Air Start (out of Gibralter)

If they can't be bothered to read the briefing, I have no sympathy :mp5: ;)

stanford
07-08-2007, 09:36
My only concern with that is that none of the Blue fighters (except the 110) will get an airstart. I'm not sure how it would imbalance the map, mind, as there's about 4-5 grids between the carrier force and the Blue bases. Is creating an airstart simply a case of putting a home base down where there's no airfield?

In terms of marking the AA, if there's coloured smoke I'll gladly put some in the area. I've built up some AA bunkers around the guns to make them easier to see. You should be able to see them if you're looking even if they're not firing.

As for targets, I've done some testing with Landing Craft. They are very, very easy to destroy even with .50's. I've got troops being ferried from the cargo ships all the way to the shore. So there's a few clumped up at the shore, a few in the deeper sea. It should be "proper" hunting for the Blues. However, a dedicated ground attack force could probably take out all of the landing craft, and cargo ships, in one or two sorties.

I'm thinking of creating another pocket of reistance on either the Island or a bit further east down the coast for Blue to deal with. Maybe an armoured batallion pushing forward. I don't know how realistic it is being so early in the invasion. I've tried to avoid making the carriers targets.

Speaking of the carriers, if I want to not allow spawning on two of them (landing only), how do I do that? Do I need to put separate home bases over each carrier, or one encompassing all?

MajorDamage
07-08-2007, 11:10
A proposition: The North Western airfield (on the coast) has been recently captured, but not 100% secured by the initial landings. As I want this to be an emergency landing base I was thinking of hiding some AAA in the hills surrounding it, making it a dangerous place to land.

I'm not sure about this - might be overcomplicating things a little. To make the base appear as a red base you have to place some red objects on it, which means the AAA will be firing at them.


My only concern with that is that none of the Blue fighters (except the 110) will get an airstart. I'm not sure how it would imbalance the map, mind, as there's about 4-5 grids between the carrier force and the Blue bases. Is creating an airstart simply a case of putting a home base down where there's no airfield?

Use Test Runway 4 for an airstart. Test runways are treated exactly like ships so you place a home base on them. Airstarts are always at 2000m heading east. Alternatively, if you don't want to give the altitude advantage, you can use a group of Test Runway 1 or 2 to make a Tracey Island representing Gibraltar. I haven't looked into it but I'm assuming from what Irish posted the P40's took off from bases in Gibraltar right?


Speaking of the carriers, if I want to not allow spawning on two of them (landing only), how do I do that? Do I need to put separate home bases over each carrier, or one encompassing all?

Just place a home base on each carrier and make sure there are no planes on them. A good idea to stick green lights on the stern (and red lights on your spawning carriers) - to place light or smoke objects above the ground select the object, go to the 3d view and then hold down F4 and the right mouse button while dragging.

Firelok
07-08-2007, 11:13
Do I need to put separate home bases over each carrier, or one encompassing all?
Make the home bases separate anyway, you'll probably want a dedicated P40 carrier and another for proper navy planes.

As for the base surrounded by enemy AAA it's a nice idea it's a nice idea but I think making it a take off/spawn area a bit iffy. But that said I don't think you can spawn a whole (17 player) side from two carriers.(We had this problem with the Dragoon map at the beginning.) It might be six spawn points per carrier.
I would suggest making the land air base poorly defended by red AAA but maybe scatter a 'surprise' AAA or two in the hills elsewhere on the map. Alternative is have more take-off carriers and leave the base as just an emergency landing strip.

stanford
07-08-2007, 11:29
I'm not sure about this - might be overcomplicating things a little. To make the base appear as a red base you have to place some red objects on it, which means the AAA will be firing at them.

I've done some testing, the guns can't get their guns low enough to actually shoot at objects on the ground. Planes should only be shot at whilst attempting to land / take off. It would only take the smalllest amount of team work - 3 bombs for the 3 AA's to defeat them. 1 SBD could take out two of them. It's only designed to effect those who don't read the brief!

In the Operation Torch PDF file Kaiser posted, you can see P40's taking off from carriers. Do you think it will be better for me to make a Gibraltar?

stanford
07-08-2007, 11:34
Make the home bases separate anyway, you'll probably want a dedicated P40 carrier and another for proper navy planes.

As for the base surrounded by enemy AAA it's a nice idea it's a nice idea but I think making it a take off/spawn area a bit iffy. But that said I don't think you can spawn a whole (17 player) side from two carriers.(We had this problem with the Dragoon map at the beginning.) It might be six spawn points per carrier.
I would suggest making the land air base poorly defended by red AAA but maybe scatter a 'surprise' AAA or two in the hills elsewhere on the map. Alternative is have more take-off carriers and leave the base as just an emergency landing strip.

This could work, as one Blue target is right next to the air base, so landing planes could be in trouble using this base any way.

I might instead have AA units, as suggested, in random hills on the main flight path. Perhaps giving them random sleep times (if that is possible with AA) so they wake up at different points in the map.

MajorDamage
07-08-2007, 11:40
In the Operation Torch PDF file Kaiser posted, you can see P40's taking off from carriers. Do you think it will be better for me to make a Gibraltar?

Dunno mate, it's up to you, I was just answering your question about how to do airstarts. I was sort of under the impression that when the USAAF flew planes off of carriers it was a ferry flight operation, I don't think they actually flew offensive ops from carriers. We have a similar kind of thing on the Malta map though, so however you want to do it is fine.

Firelok
07-08-2007, 12:03
I liked you original idea Stan, giving the Bf110s an airstart. Particularly if you use the Red Forwards land base idea you have as this gives an extra tactical element for Blues (more options are available for a side with two airbase compared to the side with one.) it also allows you to put a bit in the breif about the 'Blues use French markings but airstarted 110s are German'
I rather like the idea of carrier starting in a P40 it's different. As for no combat sorties from a carrier(this is true of the venerable Malta map too with the Spitfires) but I don't think anyone is too corrupted by ignoring this.


One of the reasons we do have test sessions is to try things out (often maps alter a lot before finally joining the cycle.) so you should try out your vision of what you want and then make adjustments as necessary.

stanford
07-08-2007, 12:14
I really appreciate all of the input. I'll just get on with it tonight and produce "something" to test over the next few days. I'm sure some of my ideas won't work at all as intended, but as you say things can be changed.

When it's nearly completed I'll fire it over to you for a full medical.

MajorDamage
07-08-2007, 12:46
I'm sure some of my ideas won't work at all as intended, but as you say things can be changed.

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. ;) Do it how you think it should be, be bold.

stanford
07-08-2007, 14:11
Who'd have thought Landing Craft fired AA? I got chewed up in 2 seconds by the blighters. How much and what ships should I use for the Red defence of the cargo ships / carriers? Should they be set to rookie and ROF 5?

Gordano
07-08-2007, 14:53
Who'd have thought Landing Craft fired AA? I got chewed up in 2 seconds by the blighters.

I'd keep the majority of them as static objects, but have a couple as normal ships so there is a little bit of AAA

MajorDamage
07-08-2007, 15:04
Who'd have thought Landing Craft fired AA? I got chewed up in 2 seconds by the blighters. How much and what ships should I use for the Red defence of the cargo ships / carriers? Should they be set to rookie and ROF 5?

Yep - you'll want to sleep nearly all the Landing Craft. For the carriers AAA I'd suggest trying maybe 2 Fletcher class DDs set to Rookie/ROF 10 to 15. The Fletchers have quite a bit of small calibre AAA so you need to reduce the ROF fairly dramatically.

Firelok
07-08-2007, 16:58
How much and what ships should I use for the Red defence of the cargo ships / carriers? Should they be set to rookie and ROF 5?

These cargo ships do OK with their own AAA actually, definitely Rookie and ROF 5 > ROF 9.

You have seen the label' Caution objects in this mirror are closer than they appear.'
I paraphrase....
'Caution Online AAA is always more evil than it appears offline.'

In short you have to have a bloody good reason for using average levels and above. Never let the carriers fire, Rarely but rarely let Cruisers and Battleships try (and then slowly ROF 25+) US Landing craft have excellent 2x.50cals AAA defence, six or so .50cals will do an OK job of defending any objective/airfield at low levels, so let very few of the landing craft fire.

stanford
11-08-2007, 12:31
Right chaps, the map itself is done. I've probably broken about 232 cardinal rules of map making, but I'm sure you'll help me! My biggest concerns are the fact currently the map is 64kb - I'm thinking that's way too much and i might have to go mental on the object count. I'm hoping that the fact it's an optimised online map that might cancel it out. Also, I have standard worries of have I gone OTT on the AAA, or is there not enough and will the targets last long enough?

I've opted for pretty soft-ish targets all round. I've chose Pz. IIF tanks which can actually be destroyed by .50 cals with a concentrated burst. As such, I'd like to limit bomb loads (except on the 110 and the SBD) to 500lb bombs max. A close proximity 500lb bomb can blow up 3 tanks. I've also hidden train cars in some factory buildings making them a target for Red. I don't know if that will even work.

The basic rundown is that Red have 3 targets to attack - all soft (except the buildings, but 1 500lb does a lot to them). There's a lightly defended convoy of tanks/troop carriers heading towards the invasion beach. A refinery with train cars inside as targets in the West and a refueling/tank depot in the centre. The last two targets have about 2 or 3 20mm AA and 1 x 88mm each. I have no idea if that's enough. I've also placed some random AA in the hills on the main flight paths to targets. This will wake up at random times throughout the map, so the route taken before safely may not be later.

I've given blues 3 20mm AA pieces in the hills overlooking the red invasion beach and unsecured airfield. They can't train their guns low enough to hit planes on the ground (at least in testing), but will munch up planes trying to land or take off pretty good. They are easy visible as I've built bunkers around them. One or two SBD's can easily take these out and secure the airfield for reds. Reds are then able to take off P40's from the ground base.

Blues targets are what I'm most worried about. There are large numbers of red landing craft (some with AA) on the shore, sailing in the sea from the troop carriers and some docked to the troop carriers. Sort of a chain. These can be easily destroyed with just guns, so I've put a few of them firing to try and make it that much more difficult. I don't think they'll put up much of a fight. There's a couple of .50's on the beach too. These are a target group along with the troop ships. There are no destroyers in close escort to the ships, the buggers kept on shooting at the AAA about 2 miles inland! Their only defence is the Landing Craft AA.

The carriers are not targets in this map, although with 110's about no doubt they will be anyway! They are spread out in to two groups: West group has 2 carriers (landing and take off) and the east has 3 carriers (2 take off 1 landing). They are protected by 3 destroyers, but far enough apart that no more than two should be firing at a plane at the same time.

The other target for blue is the island in the centre of the map. The US forces have secured the island and have loaded howitzers in defended dugouts. These are set not to fire, and are grouped in twos. It's not easy to shoot these with guns because of the walls around them.

I'm hoping the targets are of equal-ish strength, but I just don't know. I need to set some home bases and the airstarts, then I need to figure out the feckin ini file and how to set targets/limit weapon loadouts. I'll post pics this evening after the football!

irish
11-08-2007, 13:33
stan: if you want shoot me off an email with the mis. and properties files.

I'll get a look over them and report back to you via PM

Firelok
11-08-2007, 15:15
then I need to figure out the feckin ini file and how to set targets/limit weapon loadouts. I'll post pics this evening after the football!

SC Targets the easy way. (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=14794)


[Team1]
NextMisWin=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
NextMisLost=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
[Team2]
NextMisWin=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
NextMisLost=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
[Common]
TimeLimit=130
VoteLevel=-1
NoWinnerMission=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
DeadLimit=0
CountStaticPlanes=0
[Army1]
Planes=100
Pilots=70
[Army2]
Planes=90
Pilots=105
[Target1]
side=2
1=1 0 0 0 950 40684 30262 400 ;refuelling depot (example targets info.)
2=Pasted Targets Info
[Target2]
side=1
1=Pasted Targets Info
2=Pasted Targets Info
3=Pasted Targets Info
[PlanesArmy1]
P-40E
F4F-3
[PlanesArmy2]
LaGG-3series29
P-40C
Bf-110G-2=m1;m1m3;m1m5;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab250;r3r7m5 ;r4;r4_;r7m1
Ju-87D-3=1xSC1000;1xAB1000;1xPC1600;1xSC1800

The .ini file might look like this, in fact if you wanted to have a basis this might be worth using. CutnPaste it into Notepad and save it as Torch.ini

Icefire discovered the ; target description bit, it's not neccessary but can help keep track of things. All the guff after the Bf-110 is the crazy gunpod restrictions and the same for massive bomb Ju87s as an example. The correct plane codes are always to be found in the .mis file and can be copied across.

Finally 64kb is above our ideal limit but we have a few that are bigger and it often depends on the map it's created on. Until we test it's very hard to predict lagginess.

When you are done send me a PM and we can arrange a transfer for me to upload it. But it sounds like you've a thorough job already, congratulate yourself because after all you 'canny play football without a ball' and we always need maps.

stanford
11-08-2007, 15:58
Cheers mate. I assume side 1 is red?

Couple of questions: do I leave the [target] section in the .mis file, so it's in both ini and .mis? Also, using your handy quick method for some reason it only lets me select Red in the "Applies for" box. It won't let me pull down the drop down menu.

Finally, this bit here:

[Target1]
side=2
1=1 0 0 0 950 40684 30262 400 ;refuelling depot (example targets info.)
2=Pasted Targets Info
[Target2]
side=1
1=Pasted Targets Info
2=Pasted Targets Info
3=Pasted Targets Info

I have 5 targets over all (1 blue side target has two target rings around it in FMB as it's too spread out - ships)

Do i need to do seperate [target 1] through to [target 5] ?

Firelok
11-08-2007, 16:56
The [Targets] bit should not end up in the .mis file in the final version.
you can't assign sides from the FMB true but if you do all the red ones first.
(I found it useful to give them all different %tage to kill amounts so I can identify them later. i.e.- 25% =1 0 0 0 250 ***** ***** *** or
-50% =1 0 0 0 500 ***** ***** ***)
Then go back to the FMB and do all the Blue ones.

If you have target radii that overlap (as I'm getting the impression you do.) this will definately cause problems later. You need to make them just one target so they are all within one radius. FMB only allows a certain maximum radius though (about 3000m I think.) If you need to cover a wider area than this you'll have to estimate.

Do i need to do seperate [target 1] through to [target 5] ?

[Target1] is those targets that apply to REDS

[Target2] is those that apply to BLUES.

within each there can be a number of separate areas....(e.g.)
1=1 0 0 0 250 526566 256246 1000
2=1 0 0 0 750 451345 234514 2000

Although there isn't a maximum of available targets more than 4 a side doesn't display right with the in-game <targets command.

stanford
11-08-2007, 16:58
This is the ini file:

[Team1]
NextMisWin=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
NextMisLost=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
[Team2]
NextMisWin=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
NextMisLost=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
[Common]
TimeLimit=130
VoteLevel=-1
NoWinnerMission=dogfight/UKDa/SC/Kwantung.mis
DeadLimit=0
CountStaticPlanes=0
[Army1]
Planes=100
Pilots=70
[Army2]
Planes=100
Pilots=70
[Target1]
side=2
1=1 0 0 0 800 11821 50093 700 ; Ships
2=1 0 0 0 800 10168 54011 3000 ; Ships
3=1 0 0 0 800 43578 47337 500 ; Artillery
[Target2]
side=1
1=1 0 0 0 750 16382 18118 350 ; Oil Refinery
2=1 0 0 0 750 28068 46294 350 ; Road Convoy
3=1 0 0 0 750 51519 45699 450 ; Fuel Depot
[PlanesArmy1]
P-40E=1x1000
F4F-4
SBD-3=3x500;1x1000;1x1600
[PlanesArmy2]
LaGG-3series4=2xFAB50;8xRS82
Hawk81A-2
Bf-110G-2=m1;m1m3;m1m5;r3;r3m1;r3m2sc250;r3m2ab250;r3m2sc500;r3m2sd500;r3r7m1;r3r7m2sc250;r3r7m2ab250;r3r7m5 ;r4;r4_;r7m1
Ju-87D-3=1xSC1000;1xAB1000;1xPC1600;1xSC1800


Can you see any problems? Oh, and none of the targets overlap, they are the same target group just in 2 different circles which are not connected. I think I'm pretty much done, so could I send you the lot just to give the once over? If there's any major issues don't waste your time fixing them, chuck it right back and I'll sort it!

Oh, I do need to do the briefings etc. Is that just a case of typing in the conditions/description boxes?