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Firelok
16-08-2007, 07:26
Algore mentioned in another thread about a potential map with the P40, Hurricane vs B239,Bf109F4. Probably autumn over Lake Ladoga.
I've been looking into this a little and found this...
http://www.lentolaivue26.org/History/wardiaries/1942/1942.htm
Which mentions the FAF fighting Spitfires in 1942 over Lake Ladoga.:eek:
I thought they never showed up until 43 and then in the Kuban theatre.

I'm having trouble finding any background for bomber forces for blue (Finns,Germans etc.) in this area. Any ideas are welcome. I really want a flyable BTW rather than the trusty BlenheimIV.

LeVola
16-08-2007, 09:50
FAF bombers during 42, mainly Blen, Do17, and Pe-2s but Pe-2 was used for reco. flights only. Ju 88 came 43.

Algorex
16-08-2007, 12:42
In addition to the Pe-2 (as levola mentioned mostly used for armed recon) and blenheim, FAF had quite a few other captured bombers namely SBs and DBs.

Most FAF spitfire claims were actually yaks or laggs (maybe a few PVO spits were shot down during 1944), same thing with the few mustangs claimed most probably yak-9Ds.

Firelok
16-08-2007, 14:51
FAF bombers during 42, mainly Blen, Do17, and Pe-2s but Pe-2 was used for reco. flights only. Ju 88 came 43.

If we used the Heinkel He111 H2 instead of the Do17 would that be too much?

like I say really don't want to have AI bombers mainly because targets might be patrol boats, torpedo boats Mine layers etc.

Also assuming the front line fighters would be those above what about other stuff? FieldMod Hurri's, MiGs, Yak's-REDS. G50s,J8As,HurriI's even very strictly spawn limited I153s,LaGGs etc?-BLUES.

LeVola
16-08-2007, 15:02
It would be nice to see no I-16 on red side. Only "high end" Soviet planes like Yaks and MiGs. Nothing agains He111.

For blues:
G.50, Brewster, Hurri and maybe that other Italian Bi-plane to replace Fokker C.X divebombers.

For reds:
Yak, MiG, maybe early LaGGs


Fokker C.X during summer -42
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/WW2History-OivaHalmetoja-01_fk86t.jpg

Algorex
16-08-2007, 15:35
It would be nice to see no I-16 on red side. Only "high end" Soviet planes like Yaks and MiGs. Nothing agains He111.

For blues:
G.50, Brewster, Hurri and maybe that other Italian Bi-plane to replace Fokker C.X divebombers.

For reds:
Yak, MiG, maybe early LaGGs


Fokker C.X during summer -42
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/WW2History-OivaHalmetoja-01_fk86t.jpg

LeLv 26 who flew G.50 (and was given the last HCs) actually moved from Petäjärvi to make room for the 1. and 2./JG54 which flew bf 109F-4s and G-2s between 7.42 - 8.42. With the lack of Hawk 75, brewster needs to be the "bulk fighter" for the blues.

for reds
Mostly lend lease hurris and tomahawks/warhawks with Migs, i-16s and laggs. Apparently Yaks were considered premium planes and they weren't used extensive up north until later.

Firelok
23-08-2007, 05:07
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Ladoga2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/Ladoga.jpg

RED
P-40E (no bombs)
HurricaneMkIIb (no bombs)
LaGG-3series4 (no rockets or bombs) ~~Maybe not have this
Pe-2series1 (no 500kg bombs)
MiG-3ud (no rockets or bombs)
YAK1b (very limited flyables 4?)
BLUE
B-239
HurricaneMkI
J8A
CR_42
G_50
He-111H-2
Bf-109F-4 (very limited flyables 4?)

Still undecided about planes TBO. Would prefer not to have any Bf109s at all or Yaks. :confused:

Targets are all soft (trucks/static planes) and some small boats for each side.

NS-IceFire
23-08-2007, 05:22
I think 4 is way too low. Some folks will manage to crash that many just trying to move to the runway. I think either make that 10 or just remove them altogether. I like the unique planeset...I think you can safely keep the LaGG-3 series 4 which is utter crap now...the B-239 will tear it up easily :D

But it is nice to have another good B-239 map plus with P-40s and MiG-3's its sort of a different setup.

Algorex
23-08-2007, 09:40
I believe firelok is proposing a spawn point limit on the yak and the F4.

While you can have the glad on this it's usefulness is questionable as even us finns put it to recon service in the continuation war.
CR 42? typo?

Firelok
23-08-2007, 12:31
maybe that other Italian Bi-plane to replace Fokker C.X divebombers.
= Cr42

I was thinking to include Levolas idea.

Wasn't going to put any numbers limits on in terms of SC but spawn limit 109F4s otherwise it'll be a sky full of F4s. Leaving them out is still an option I'm considering.

MajorDamage
23-08-2007, 13:19
This looks great. I like the idea of leaving out the F4, but would that make the P40 a bit uber? Interesting planeset though, look forward to this one.

Zorin
23-08-2007, 13:42
This plane set will result in an outcome very similar to the Vladivostok mission we have.

The blue planes may turn easily with the reds, but their guns won't hurt them(the Zero at least has cannons) and the Pe2 together with the MiG and LaGG will only pick the fights they want or else just run.

Maybe aim for a later date so that you can establish a more balanced plane set.

Algorex
23-08-2007, 15:09
This plane set will result in an outcome very similar to the Vladivostok mission we have.

The blue planes may turn easily with the reds, but their guns won't hurt them(the Zero at least has cannons) and the Pe2 together with the MiG and LaGG will only pick the fights they want or else just run.

Maybe aim for a later date so that you can establish a more balanced plane set.

Brewsters .50s cut wings and flame fuel tanks quite nicely in the finland map at least.

stanford
23-08-2007, 15:12
This is right up my street. I really look forward to getting shot down on it.

NS-IceFire
23-08-2007, 22:08
A Brewsters four machine guns will do quite the number on the P-40. Not sure if this is historical but what about a 109E-4 or E-7 of some sort? Not quite as limited (say 20).

Firelok
03-09-2007, 09:25
Ok, I've finalised a version for testing with the following planes.
No rockets or bombs on any fighters, blues have a small number of captured aircraft now too.


RED
HurricaneMkIIb=2x250lb;2xfab100
P-40E=1000lb;500lb
LaGG-3series4=12,8xRS82;2xFAB50
MiG-3ud=2xBK;6xRS-82;4xFAB-50;2xFAB-100;4xAO-10
Pe-2series1=2fab5002fab250
BLUE
B-239
G_50
He-111H-2
HurricaneMkI
J8A
LaGG-3series4=6,8xRS82;2xFAB50
MiG-3ud=6,2xBK;6xRS-82;4xFAB-50;2xFAB-100;4xAO-10
Bf-109F-4

Have uploaded this, Ladoga.mis

*edit* at the moment I've put in the brief that the 109s and Heinkel are German, is this a mistake?
Was this a 100% FAF area? in which case everything on blue side should be Finnish markings.

Algorex
04-09-2007, 07:32
Brewster power!

Vote for immediate inclusion to the rotation, though i still think the MiG and the LaGG shouldn't be on the blue side.

As for the He 111 and bf 109, they should be german as the bf 109 in the area is completely historical (JG54 planes, check my previous post) and i'm fairly sure the luftwaffe bombers made sorties over the ladoga at least to suppress the Leningrad supply shipments.

Firelok
04-09-2007, 19:02
The 'captured planes' were a total waste of time on this, no-one used them really. So next version they are out, also adjusting the spawn area of the 109F4s, allowing 8 of them to spawn was a little much.

I was indeed very surprised how well the B239 did on this map, there was a permanent furball about 10km wide in the centre of the sea, very pleasing to see. High number of aircraft shotdown by both sides with blues in the lead 28 to 35.

System-M-
07-10-2007, 18:09
Alot of complaints of this map today about its planset.

Red had a choice of P-40, Lagg 3, Hurri IIb and Pe2.

Seemed everyone saw this as inferiror to blue and packed up that side. i ecommended a player to add his throughts but for soem reason it wouldnt work. So i am doing it instead. I was on red and agree the Hurri and P-40 just gets slaughtered on this map.

Firelok
08-10-2007, 15:36
Was there lots of bf109F4s flying?

I wonder how it might be without any 109s.
Other options are maybe include some Yaks.

System-M-
08-10-2007, 19:06
Was there lots of bf109F4s flying?

I wonder how it might be without any 109s.
Other options are maybe include some Yaks.

They were all 109F4's

Firelok
08-10-2007, 19:41
They were all 109F4's

Yep that would explain a lot, it's very hard to get the numbers of flyables right.
I'm going to try it without 109F4s for a bit.

Zorin
08-10-2007, 19:46
Yep that would explain a lot, it's very hard to get the numbers of flyables right.
I'm going to try it without 109F4s for a bit.

I'm worried that that won't work as well. It only turns the tight and makes the P40E and LaGG3 the "uber" planes of the map. :(

Firelok
08-10-2007, 19:57
I do think the B239 is better than both these planes in terms of dogfighting
getting the right amount of 'some 109s' via the spawn radius is really hard to predict I find.

Zorin
08-10-2007, 21:04
I do think the B239 is better than both these planes in terms of dogfighting
getting the right amount of 'some 109s' via the spawn radius is really hard to predict I find.

That may be the case, but I can't operate it in a fast dogfight. It climbs like a dog and once you lost your speed its best to bail right away :(

Sonko
08-10-2007, 22:23
in such a case you have been too low on the deck Zorin. The B239 is BEST against Emils and not bad against the Friedrich, although I'd prefer the P-40 over the Brewster against the F series.

*EDIT* But I can't really judge here because I haven't played that map once I think..

Firelok
08-10-2007, 22:43
There's no doubt that this idea for a planeset is a little troublesome to balance but I still like the unsual mix of planes that show in the Northern theatre around Leningrad and the Finnish Continuation War.

Just to make things clear here is the planes again,with a couple of minor changes that I think might be OK aswell as adjusting the number of 109s again.

RED
P-40E
HurricaneMkIIb
HurriFieldMod
LaGG-3series4
Pe-2series1
MiG-3ud


BLUE
B-239
HurricaneMkI
J8A
G_50
He-111H-2
Bf-109F-4
Ki27 (as Fokker DXXI)

Another thing I've thought about is maybe involving the more maneuverable P40C tomahawks, some of the web info I found implies the USSR got some of these before the main P40E shipments (maybe off've the Brits.??)
It's undoubtedly true that the Bf109F4 is a very dominant model in the Eastern theatre but I'm sure theres a balance to be struck here.

Algorex
08-10-2007, 22:50
in such a case you have been too low on the deck Zorin. The B239 is BEST against Emils and not bad against the Friedrich, although I'd prefer the P-40 over the Brewster against the F series.

*EDIT* But I can't really judge here because I haven't played that map once I think..

Well first off the brewsters and Bfs are on the same side fighting p-40s etc ;)

Taking off the bfs completely seems a bit harsh but i do understand the difficulties with the base radii.

It's strange how the p-40 holds it's own against the f4 elsewhere, Halfa for instance or in the Vadsö for that matter, but on this map it's somehow struggling. One alternative could be a cannon armed hurri although that would just make it harder for the brewsters instead of really countering the faster bfs.

Zorin
08-10-2007, 23:38
The HurriFM is already a handful of a plane if you ask me.

System-M-
08-10-2007, 23:41
The HurriFM is already a handful of a plane if you ask me.

I had my wing taken clean off 5 times on this map in one sitting and i was in a hurri.

Zorin
09-10-2007, 01:13
I had my wing taken clean off 5 times on this map in one sitting and i was in a hurri.

I was revering to its armament actually.

NS-IceFire
09-10-2007, 05:55
Well first off the brewsters and Bfs are on the same side fighting p-40s etc ;)

Taking off the bfs completely seems a bit harsh but i do understand the difficulties with the base radii.

It's strange how the p-40 holds it's own against the f4 elsewhere, Halfa for instance or in the Vadsö for that matter, but on this map it's somehow struggling. One alternative could be a cannon armed hurri although that would just make it harder for the brewsters instead of really countering the faster bfs.
Strange that the P-40 wasn't holding up...it does well elsewhere as you say. Perhaps it was the pilots? Really the P-40E is a fairly good plane with a good turn. Just needs to climb and attack which is key...otherwise its low on energy and the 109 can get it.

What was happening?

slm
09-10-2007, 20:45
I flew both sides on that map. What I saw happening was that those F4s were clearly better than P-40s. Faster and climbed so much better, but if a 109 pilot allowed his plane to slow down then red pilots had a chance. IMO the plane set is challenging for the red side, but not impossible. And wasn't the east front air war pretty much like this - during the first years Germans had a clear edge?

NS-IceFire
10-10-2007, 02:21
Yep the Luftwaffe had a definite quality edge with both their equipment and with their pilots. The pilots really make the difference but so does the equipment. The Bf109F's were quite a bit better overall than the opposition in the hands of experienced pilots so they wracked up large numbers of kills despite being somewhat outnumbered.

The trick online is that nobody really wants to fly for the "looser" side that has worse planes so these scenarios have to balance history and fun factor or people leave the server whenever the map appears. I would think that good pilots on either side will be able to make the best of out the star aircraft present...although the Bf109F-4 is definitely the better of the two.

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 02:53
I have a book who says one Finn pilot died when his Hurricane collided with a Soviet Spitfire... i'll try to extract this part and post here...

Sonko
10-10-2007, 08:54
Ride your P-40 at around 3000m and the 109's will be in trouble. A one one one is truly more difficult when facing this 109 but when in a two on two it looks much different! adler and me shot down multiple 109F-4's on another map the other day.

Firelok
10-10-2007, 11:48
I have a book who says one Finn pilot died when his Hurricane collided with a Soviet Spitfire... i'll try to extract this part and post here...

Just like every Hurricane was a 'Spitfire' in the Battle of Britain perhaps, I think it's a mis-identification.

The VVS Spits arrived and were first used in the Kuban theatre '43. Possibly they came via the Middle-East/Iran supply route to Russia, so they were employed in the south first. The Russians didn't like the Spitfire and it was relegated to static PVO city defence missions later into the war.

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 11:52
Just like every Hurricane was a 'Spitfire' in the Battle of Britain perhaps, I think it's a mis-identification.

The VVS Spits arrived and were first used in the Kuban theatre '43. Possibly they came via the Middle-East/Iran supply route to Russia, so they were employed in the south first. The Russians didn't like the Spitfire and it was relegated to static PVO city defence missions later into the war.

Probably, but still i'm loking for my book...

Algorex
10-10-2007, 12:06
Just like every Hurricane was a 'Spitfire' in the Battle of Britain perhaps, I think it's a mis-identification.

The VVS Spits arrived and were first used in the Kuban theatre '43. Possibly they came via the Middle-East/Iran supply route to Russia, so they were employed in the south first. The Russians didn't like the Spitfire and it was relegated to static PVO city defence missions later into the war.

The spitfires shot down by finns were most likely yaks as well as the mustangs killed. Stangest thing reported by finnish fighter pilots was a group of lightnings. :D

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 12:19
The spitfires shot down by finns were most likely yaks as well as the mustangs killed. Stangest thing reported by finnish fighter pilots was a group of lightnings. :D

As Joni said, some of them used to drink before fly :D

Algorex
10-10-2007, 13:43
I looked in to this (read: walked three blocks to the local library and browsed through a book (and did some grocery shopping on the way))

Anyway all 13 finnish hurricanes are accounted for, 6 were withdrawn after the war (all in depot at the time), 1 crashed in scotland, another in norway, 2 were lost in training, one was hit by AA and burst in to flames on landing at it's base and the final one was shot down by light AA near Kotskoma summer 41.

As a conclusion i find it hard to believe it was a finnish hurricane that collided with a russian fighter. Moreover during the summer 41 most (if not all) russian fighters in the area around finland were polikarpovs especially i-152s and i-153s

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 14:22
I looked in to this (read: walked three blocks to the local library and browsed through a book (and did some grocery shopping on the way))

Anyway all 13 finnish hurricanes are accounted for, 6 were withdrawn after the war (all in depot at the time), 1 crashed in scotland, another in norway, 2 were lost in training, one was hit by AA and burst in to flames on landing at it's base and the final one was shot down by light AA near Kotskoma summer 41.

As a conclusion i find it hard to believe it was a finnish hurricane that collided with a russian fighter. Moreover during the summer 41 most (if not all) russian fighters in the area around finland were polikarpovs especially i-152s and i-153s

Yeah, i made a complete mistake... It wasn't Soviet Spitfires, just Hurricanes... and Finn plane was a Brewster, not Hurricane... and year was 1942, i think.

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 14:34
Also found on net... Soviets AF assigned some Spitfires to the 26 GvIAP of the Leningrad Air Defense... and also found this painting:

http://www.richthistle.com/images/BlackLynxVictory.jpg

slm
10-10-2007, 18:19
AFAIK one Brewster was shot down by 4 Hurricanes in 1942 (didn't collide).

LBR=Barkhorn
10-10-2007, 20:00
AFAIK one Brewster was shot down by 4 Hurricanes in 1942 (didn't collide).

I think almost was that, the Brewster shoot down 4 Hurris...

NS-IceFire
12-01-2008, 20:26
Having some problems with this map...it clears the server of players. Not because they hate the scenario but because they keep selecting restricted aircraft. The two times I've played this map half the red team is gone in 5 minutes because they selected a restricted plane and got kicked...its dumb I know but I think its worth considering reducing some of the restrictions. Maybe not all...but its pretty bad when you're having a good time and half the team are idiots and they get kicked. Seems to be mostly a Red Team problem...Blue has this issue only in normal amounts so no adjustments there I forsee.

Zorin
13-01-2008, 00:07
Having some problems with this map...it clears the server of players. Not because they hate the scenario but because they keep selecting restricted aircraft. The two times I've played this map half the red team is gone in 5 minutes because they selected a restricted plane and got kicked...its dumb I know but I think its worth considering reducing some of the restrictions. Maybe not all...but its pretty bad when you're having a good time and half the team are idiots and they get kicked. Seems to be mostly a Red Team problem...Blue has this issue only in normal amounts so no adjustments there I forsee.

What are the actual restrictions on red planes? After taking a look at the planeset I couldn't see what could be restricted in the first place.

EDIT: I just checked the Gazetteer and found the reason. all red fighters have their ground attack loadouts restricted, which is a must cause the targets are in great danger with unrestricted rockets and big bombs. Only option here would be to beafen up the red targets with some tanks etc.

NS-IceFire
13-01-2008, 00:47
Might be the best thing to do...the one time I was on the map I was flying for blue and in the time it took me to select my plane, take off, and gain 2000 meters half the red team was kicked :)

I don't know which armament specifically they were getting kicked for but when it happened again today (except this time I was red) I was blown away. Special people out there!

It'd just be nice to not clear the server as quickly...

Zorin
13-01-2008, 00:51
Might be the best thing to do...the one time I was on the map I was flying for blue and in the time it took me to select my plane, take off, and gain 2000 meters half the red team was kicked :)

I don't know which armament specifically they were getting kicked for but when it happened again today (except this time I was red) I was blown away. Special people out there!

It'd just be nice to not clear the server as quickly...

Shocking how stupid most people are... Not like the <planes command would be in the brief... :wall:

NS-IceFire
13-01-2008, 01:37
Shocking how stupid most people are... Not like the <planes command would be in the brief... :wall:

Or scrolling warning points about not using the plane either... :mp5:

Firelok
17-01-2008, 12:19
Been thinking a little about this, it might be that the Pe3 is restricted in the largest bombs too. This isn't the only map with almost universal VVS fighterbomber restrictions, Istra and Lvov41 are like this too. Maybe folks need to get used to it over time. Beefing up the targets is an option but it's quite a compromise pretty sure the Finnish army wasn't well supplied in tanks at this time, perhaps more ships or bunkers or something. Also rocket armed VVS fighters is a nightmare for the Heinkels. I shall have more of a think though.

NS-IceFire
17-01-2008, 22:16
Yeah I don't think the rockets need to come back persay but maybe some of the restrictions on bombs. No idea why it affects this map so badly but the team just drops like flies...

Firelok
18-01-2008, 06:00
The P40E is an excellent fighter-bomber, with a big old bomb (1000lb) for it's class, this is the one that I'm concerned about the most in terms of ground pounding. I wonder if the MiG3UD could be left entirely unrestricted how dangerous that would be for the Heinkels.

Also the P40E field-mod has only a 250kg bomb (half of the P40E vanilla) I wonder how that would effect things, it's slightly faster too I think.

One of the things I was after was a bit of symmetry here for the bombers, locking out the Pe2's 500kg/250kg bomb option means that the biggest Pe2 bombload is 4x250kg (exactly the same as the He111 H2)

Oh, here's a quote from Ladoga's current mission brief BTW

*Notes; no rockets are available for Red fighters and bombs are limited, the Ki27 appears as a stand-in for the Fokker DXXI.

:wall:

I found this info about Finnish 1941 tank forces.


The Tank Battalion saw battle first in September of 1941. Tanks of Tank Battalion spearheaded Finnish attack in route Tuulos - Syväri/Svir - Äänislinna/Petroskoi - Poventsa. Their attack finally ended to Poventsa in northern edge of Lake Ääninen/Onega in 6th of December 1941. Year 1941 various T-26 tanks were main equipment of Tank Battalion, but also few BT-series tanks and two T-28 were in its use. 1941 - 1942 5 more T-28, two KV-1 and two T-34/76 were introduced to Finnish use.
*EDIT ADDITIONAL*
So I've added some tanks (T26s,Matildas,BT-7s and 1 T28) and spread some coastal defence bunkers around the other target and maybe some other small ships, so with some changes to the Red planes as follows...

RED
HurricaneMkIIb
P-40E
LaGG-3series4=12
MiG-3-2xShVAK
P-40E-M-105=12
Pe-2series1
HurricaneMkIIbMod

Mainly due to the ShVAK MiG having only 2 cannon (not rockets,bombs gunpods etc etc.) but Reds do have rocket armed fighters now but only limited numbers (LaGG and P40 fieldmod) Blues can spawn Heinkels from both bases now to provide a bit more unpredictability in interception. Reds now have no ordinance limits at all just limited numbers of LaGGs/P40fieldmod.)

Finally I've decided to alter the time of day to mid-morning, It's entirely possible that the pre-dawn gloomy settings of before were putting people off too.

Zorin
06-03-2009, 14:37
The new FBDj version will feature the MS 410 and Hawk75-A4 instead of the Ki27.

Algorex
03-05-2009, 19:36
Currently the map doesn't seem to have any restrictions, especially critical is the F4s in the air limit.

Zorin
03-05-2009, 21:11
Currently the map doesn't seem to have any restrictions, especially critical is the F4s in the air limit.

http://www.il2hq.com/UK2/missiondetails.php?id=1240632387

Algorex
03-05-2009, 21:25
Well i saw 7 to 5 Friedrichs in the air at the same time today.