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Zorin
07-09-2007, 19:20
a mid 1944 western front mission on the Murmansk summer map with the Do335 as a replacement for Libau?

RED

Typhoon (fixed rocket loadout)
Mossie
P51C
P47D-22

BLUE

Fw190A6
Bf109G6late
Do335 (limited to a max of 4-6 in the air)

Zorin
08-09-2007, 00:39
Don't post all at once...

Firelok
08-09-2007, 04:58
Don't post all at once...

:o this is kind of our fault TBO, having added so many maps over the last year or so, it's no longer a 'big thing' and likely to provoke 8 pages of furious discussion.

I think it looks like a good idea for a map, I'd be interested to see which bit of Murmansk you would use. The low lying coast is quite a good stand in for Holland, perhaps the battle for Walcheren island fits well with your time period/planes?
But do we have to replace Libau with it? Seems a shame.:(

Algorex
08-09-2007, 09:49
Walcheren island would be quite close to your Scheldt map, at least general planeset wise.

Königsberg/Danzig area could offer some possibilities for a late war eastern front map by the baltic sea. (RAF strike aircrafts coming from far west.... no no ignore the that part :rolleyes: )

Firelok
08-09-2007, 10:17
Walcheren island would be quite close to your Scheldt map, at least general planeset wise.

Königsberg/Danzig area could offer some possibilities for a late war eastern front map by the baltic sea. (RAF strike aircrafts coming from far west.... no no ignore the that part :rolleyes: )

Ahh, but this has the benefit of no spitfires whatsoever which should make it very different in terms of play.:D

irish
08-09-2007, 13:25
could we add a P47 D27 or the P38J ?

Algorex
08-09-2007, 13:36
could we add a P47 D27 or the P38J ?

That's more Operation Nordwind or Operation Cobra thing, the 9th AF and american forces.

irish
08-09-2007, 13:51
Didn't realize this was going to be nation specific

Zorin
08-09-2007, 19:41
@Firelok: True, should have thought about that. Today you'll need to come up with a finished map and tons of pics of targets sights to get anything going...

I wouldn't mind adding a P47 or P38 as long as we can keep the planeset Spit-free and pre D-Day. So given the Americans made raids with their planes and not only flew escort missions that'd be fine with me.


About Libau, I don't know what to think. I still like it, its my mission, but the dogfights are way too close to the Blue base and get really laggy over Libau and therefor kill the fun for many players. :(

Firelok
09-09-2007, 00:43
Spit-free and pre D-Day.
amen to that.

Just thinking that we often have the P51,P47 and P38 all together, just having the P47 might be cool, it's not often the Jug gets to be top dog.

You are probably right about Libau, it's a shame.. I would miss this:)
http://www.erinnavy.com/downloads/UK2Gazetteer/Libau.jpg

irish
09-09-2007, 00:56
my thought exactly , firelok....just the jug or the P38

Zorin
09-09-2007, 00:58
I added the D22 to the list in my first post. Guess she would have the better chances to catch a Dornier, right?

Boemher
09-09-2007, 01:03
Id like a few (to match Do 335 numbers) unrestricted loadout Tempests so there is at least one Red plane which stands a hope in hell of catching the Dornier.

Mid 44 the Tempest was in service while the Do335 was still in pre production stage of development.

Zorin
09-09-2007, 01:06
Id like a few unrestricted loadout Tempests so there is at least one Red plane which stands a hope in hell of catching the Dornier

Unrestricted Tempests would give the A6 and G6 quite a hard time, IMO.

And don't have both, P51 and P47, have the speed to catch a Dornier? I'm sure in a dive that shouldn't prove to be a problem.

Zorin
09-09-2007, 01:08
Mid 44 the Tempest was in service while the Do335 was still in pre production stage of development.

Production of the Dornier started in March 1943, was quite surprised myself. But it got such a low prioriety that it was basically forgotten in the course of the war so the numbers did not exceed 50.

Plus, you can't have restricted and unrestricted Tempests. :(

irish
09-09-2007, 01:11
I added the D22 to the list in my first post. Guess she would have the better chances to catch a Dornier, right?

Hows about the bubbletop D27 (Begging in effect here)

Zorin
09-09-2007, 01:21
Hows about the bubbletop D27 (Begging in effect here)

Most units switched to Bubble tops after D-Day. Just did a bit of research and the fighter-bomber squadrons either used P38s or Razorbacks.

irish
09-09-2007, 01:52
right you are...forgot this was a pre Overlord thing

NS-IceFire
09-09-2007, 04:27
Production of the Dornier started in March 1943, was quite surprised myself. But it got such a low prioriety that it was basically forgotten in the course of the war so the numbers did not exceed 50.

Plus, you can't have restricted and unrestricted Tempests. :(
As I recall...the actual series production wasn't ready until early 1944 as they made allot of changes over that year.

Firelok
09-09-2007, 04:46
Guy's, it's great to be able to have an 100% historical set-up but before we get carried away by exact in-service dates lets remember that above all it's got to work team vs team with great plane choice for either side that works 'in the game'.

It's worth considering not restricting anything, be it Do335 or Tempest. People want to fly these planes why not let them,The option of flying the Do335 (instead of a 109G6-Late) against the Tempest is actually appealing. I can't see too much problem myself with the P47 bubbletop or using a 109G6A/S on blues side too. All that might be better in mid-44 sure but why not?

NS-IceFire
09-09-2007, 05:26
Well this is the thing...the Do-335 is great and all but its one of the fastest prop fighters in the game and if its up against a mid-war Allied opposition its going to destroy them. This is partly what sunk Libau originally is that the Do-335 was just untouchable until it was restricted and counter aircraft were introduced.

I actually rather like Libau now...its a good map minus the lag around the harbour.

Firelok
09-09-2007, 06:02
Well this is the thing...the Do-335 is great and all but its one of the fastest prop fighters in the game and if its up against a mid-war Allied opposition its going to destroy them. This is partly what sunk Libau originally is that the Do-335 was just untouchable until it was restricted and counter aircraft were introduced.

I actually rather like Libau now...its a good map minus the lag around the harbour.

The Do335 is only 7kph faster than the Tempest according to Hardballs and I'm wondering if they pushed the Tempest as far as it can be pushed too.

Algorex
09-09-2007, 09:31
Why not use the Walcheren idea, october 1944, you'd get the typhoons, tempests, bubbletop jugs, late lightnings, bf 109G6A/S, Fw 190A8/6 and you could stay away from the spit/pony/dora trio.

Zorin
09-09-2007, 12:07
Operation Infatuate

Would work well with the Murmansk peninsulas. I'd only need to build the airfields myself again... *sigh*

RED

Typhoon (fixed rocket loadout)
P38J
P47D-27

BLUE

Fw190A6
Bf109G6late
Bf109G6A/S
Do335

My problem with an unrestricted Tempest is the fact that it will be a bigger nightmare than any Spitfire. Why? It is a most decent fighter that has the ability to run down any Blue opposition and has the best Allied armamanet available (4x20mm).

Zorin
09-09-2007, 14:57
The problem I ran into is the plainness of the Murmansk summer map in the upper half. No trees or different ground textures... I think this will be really dull, especially with the longer routes players have to live with due to map limitations.

Firelok
09-09-2007, 17:17
Yep it is a little dull, I used quite a bit of my object budget on the Scheldt map adding farms, radar stations and small port facilities that had nothing to do with the mission whatsoever.

Thinking of alternatives for you doesn't throw up many very positive solutions either, but this might include running the action along the coast east-west of the Normandy3 map,the North-Western area of Kuban map, committing the crime of orientation altering and using the North/South coast of Norway map or Kuban coast again.

It depends of course what sort of targets you have in your minds eye, if it needs coastline or not. If you were happy to switch to an inland sort of site you get lots more options for interesting scenery obviously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89perlecques
These kinds of construction programs were fairly common in northern france.
Anyway some alternative for you to think on, here.

P.S. just making it rain on the Murmansk Summer map covers a lot of dullness or if you are feeling kinder that early morning 'mist':D :D

Sonko
09-09-2007, 21:10
This sounds interesting Zorin.....
I have an idea about how to improve the performance on the Libau map!
iirc the city of Libau is intact, right? Maybe destroying a huge part of the structures there in FMB will improve fps alot, especially if all the ugly grey-green trees get cut off.

Zorin
09-09-2007, 21:20
It might solve the tree problem, but I'm under the impression that even collapsed buidlings do cast shadows, but correct me if I'm wrong. Firelok, any idea what is the case?

NS-IceFire
10-09-2007, 02:41
You can't destroy buildings on a map in a dogfight server map. Soon as you load it up...nothing. Everything is there without a scratch.

Zorin
13-09-2007, 23:07
You can't destroy buildings on a map in a dogfight server map. Soon as you load it up...nothing. Everything is there without a scratch.

Where the guys who wrote the codes for online gaming just plain stupid or deliberately ignorant??

Oh, and before I forget, who "designed" those utterly stupid online maps (5-10)?

GRRR.

This is really annoying. I want a what-if scenario in mid 1944 which should feature the Do335 and F8 and leave out the Spitfire or La5FN. Plus, naval targets for Blues.

Any ideas AND suitable map locations.

NS-IceFire
13-09-2007, 23:40
No idea about the guys who wrote the code. I think the intention was to make it run well on a 56k modem and granted that the IL-2 netcode is actually extremely good. Its just not very flexible.

Zorin what you're trying to do is very tricky...especially with the Do-335 which has a huge firepower and speed advantage not to mention being robust and not easily falling to enemy gunfire. Its not a particularly good close in fighter but I'm sure you know as well as I do what kind of power the Do-335 can have...when the Libau map came out I flew the Do-335 (nobody else knew what it was because nobody else was flying it) and I was untouchable. And I enjoyed it too :)

I think my K/D ratio in the Do-335 is probably the number of guys I've shot down in it to 0 as I've managed to bring it back almost every time. Fire extinguishers are an awesome bonus too!

So when you have a plane like this you need something else on the other side to counter balance. The La-5FN and La-7 are pretty good counters given their straight line speed and acceleration. The Spitfire is less of an issue since its not really a fantastically great straight line speed sort of fighter...not the versions we have...not compared to a Do-335 anyways.

I think you might be better served to setup some sort of 1946 scenario. This is doable even if you want to keep jets out of the picture as you can definitely say that had the 1946 scenario actually played out that jets would not have been all that prevalent anyways and the prop planes would still carry their weight in other theaters. Murmansk would be a fine map to use (its fiction, you can do anything you want). Then you can use the Do-335 with the extra firepower, FW190F-8, Ta-152C and/or Ta-152H and face them off against lend lease P-63s, Yak-3 (of some kind...maybe the VK-108 maybe not), Yak-9UT, IL-10, and maybe the Yak-15 (yes its a jet but the Do-335 I think is just as fast). This could be a workable scenario....and the bonus is that the Do-335 is no longer a bonus limited numbers plane but a very available choice.

Zorin
14-09-2007, 00:03
Thanks for your reply, which definitely shows you given this a fair bit of thought.

But, to my own surprise, the research showed that the Do335 isn't an easy plane.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/JetTable-1.jpg

As you can see, its K/D ratio i s on par with a G6 and in terms of weaponry she is outclassed by a Fw190A4.

Her true advantage above all is her speed, without bomb loadout, and as you mentioned the fire extinguishers.

The scenario you set sounds quite nice, but would need the addition of the D9 to counter the formidably turning Yaks.

As of my personal experience, I'd leave the Ta152C out for it being simply pants. Except the fact that it is rather fast in a straight flight she can't do anything proper. Biggest disappointment of the whole 1946 bunch for me. :(

The addition of the Yak-15 wouldn't hurt anyway, cause I think most will be slammed in the ground due to black-outs. ;)

NS-IceFire
14-09-2007, 00:42
Well my K/D ratio is different with the plane than everyone elses :D Nonetheless I do see the point. Outclassed in firepower I'm not entirely sure...a single MK103 hit will tear the enemy a new one. I enjoy that fact :)

Yep no problem with the FW190D-9 either (better make it 1944 so everyone is happy).

Maybe its the whole Canadian thing but I like the Murmansk map...its suitably sparse and tundra like...even the summer map. I think its nice to look at given the right time of day (sort of a mid afternoon time with longer shadows but still full sun). I hope you consider this idea at the very least...might be fun! I'm still looking to do a full on 1946 jet map with props too but I want to make it worthwhile.

Zorin
14-09-2007, 00:50
I choose the area south of Murmansk for the scenario. Lets pretend the Axis did conquer Murmansk and are now trying to penetrate Russian soil from the north ;)

Firelok
14-09-2007, 00:53
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/firelokc/layout.jpg
Very Very difficult to come up with a viable arrangement (that none of us has done before:D ) the amount of coastlines facing north available is almost nil.
Heres what I thought using Murmansk summer with Polyarni as the naval target area for blues. It's not much I know but all I could think of. :o

One of the Do335 problems I think is the vulnerability of the 'pusher' engine, you get caught in gun range for a little bit by a diving fighter and one of your powerplants get nailed quite easily.

I like Ice's idea of the 'crap' 1946 planes. He162's and Lerches and Mig15s is all very well but no one is going to fly an LaGG 3 RD unless that's the only option.
I wonder what these planes perform like compared to Go229s and Do335s.

But to return to the mid-44 Do335 idea, I'd be feeling distinctly vulnerable with a tempest or two flying around. I myself would be tempted to allow a clean tempest option but spawn limit it and do the same for the Do335.
Not only are the map options tough but I think the plane ones are too the tempest can be an evil bird 'uncontrolled' before Blues field the FW190D-9.

Zorin
14-09-2007, 01:21
Layout:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/map.jpg

Blue:

Fw190F8
Do335 (locked SC1000)

Bf109G-14
Fw190A6

Fw190D9`45 (=second hand western front`44s)=8

Red:

Il10
A20G

LaGGRD
Yak3
MiG3U
P63 (serviceable planes after being cut off from western supplies)=12

NS-IceFire
14-09-2007, 03:34
Nice! I like it...its different and its hard to say how it will play out exactly in practice but nice! Looking forward to seeing it!

Zorin
14-09-2007, 05:40
First impressions:

This is a standard single strip airfield which was upgraded with steel mats to allow bomber operations in the winter month. This part will be the spawn area for the Il10 and A20G. The normal spawn points of the airfield will be reserved for the fighter aircraft.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/RedAirfield1.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/RedAirfield.jpg


Due to the fact that 7 artificial runways look oddly out of place, I integrated them in the airfield and overlay the spawn field with one end and turned the other into a sector under repair (bomb craters etc need to be taken care of)
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Bild1_MS.jpg

Target sight for Blues(~30 tanks of different strength: Sherman <-> to IS-2):

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Bild3_MS.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Bild2_MS.jpg

Firelok
14-09-2007, 06:01
Looks great, like the metallic strip idea they should have given us a Testrunway5 that was grass too, lazy blighters.:wall:

I really like bridging and fording operations on the map it makes for a great target. Looking forward to seeing the Axis targets with those wicked Coelian AAA tanks:)

Zorin
14-09-2007, 06:44
Looks great, like the metallic strip idea they should have given us a Testrunway5 that was grass too, lazy blighters.:wall:

I really like bridging and fording operations on the map it makes for a great target. Looking forward to seeing the Axis targets with those wicked Coelian AAA tanks:)

I'm not mean and seeing that we are in northern Russia in the summer of 1945 the toughest target for reds are two Tiger I tanks ;) The same for Blues, only that there are 4 IS-2.

So there are no Maus tanks, Coelian AAA tanks or IS-3 tanks.

But Blues have captured some fancy T-34s ;)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Bild4_MS.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/Bild5_MS.jpg

Algorex
14-09-2007, 10:34
This river crossing idea would've suited the USAAF vs Luftwaffe idea quite nice as well. Under the name "Operation Grenade" perhaps. It could be a new map in addition to this one.

Zorin
14-09-2007, 18:43
Come on kids, I gave you pictures now you give me your opinion. OK? ;)

Firelok
14-09-2007, 19:19
Come on kids, I gave you pictures now you give me your opinion. OK? ;)

Well I'm deeply impatient to try it out.

NS-IceFire
14-09-2007, 22:34
Come on kids, I gave you pictures now you give me your opinion. OK? ;)

Just got home. Blame the curvature of the earth! :D

Looks great...love the river crossing and the other target looks pretty interesting too. Maybe spread a few more trees out in that area to make it look at bit more natural? Aside from that aesthetic bit...I'm looking forward to flying it!

FlyingFinn
14-09-2007, 22:40
Wow, looks like a very sweet setup.

Can't wait to try it out.

Zorin
14-09-2007, 23:24
Just got home. Blame the curvature of the earth! :D

Looks great...love the river crossing and the other target looks pretty interesting too. Maybe spread a few more trees out in that area to make it look at bit more natural? Aside from that aesthetic bit...I'm looking forward to flying it!

Tried the idea with the trees but after having placed over 50 objects and having it still look unnatural screwed the idea and simply added a small farm complex.

FILES HAVE BEEN SEND.

Firelok
15-09-2007, 11:40
Ok I've received files, we should be able to test this tomorrow.

I've taken the liberty of renaming this thread, from Anyone Mind... to Kola Valley. so as folks know where to post comments in the future.

LeVola
15-09-2007, 13:23
Coca Kola Valley? :p

NS-IceFire
15-09-2007, 15:19
Coca Kola Valley? :p

As long as its not Diet Kola Valley :D

Firelok
15-09-2007, 15:37
Now kids before we lurch massively off've topic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Peninsula

The suitable beverage is more likely this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvass
Very Russian.

Zorin
16-09-2007, 20:26
Anyone who could load it now?

Zorin
16-09-2007, 21:35
No one?

Firelok
17-09-2007, 01:12
I'm sorry Zorin, I did suggest we might do this on Sunday. When I started up IL2 this evening I looked at the multi-player screen and just didn't have any enthusiasm for playing.:o

Zorin
17-09-2007, 23:13
Ok, the server has gone crazy and without any regulars and only 10 players at max testing a map is pointless. May I request to have a prime time test please.

Barney
18-09-2007, 00:38
great map Zorin, just make sure peeps know not to taxi off the steel-mat, as they will catapult into the air and wind up killed.

Zorin
18-09-2007, 00:55
great map Zorin, just make sure peeps know not to taxi off the steel-mat, as they will catapult into the air and wind up killed.

Thanks for point this out to me. Didn't think of the case that people would make a 180° turn to get on the regular runway. But I have taken care of this now. :)

NS-IceFire
18-09-2007, 03:08
Objects blocking the way? :)

Zorin
18-09-2007, 13:23
Objects blocking the way? :)

Exactly.

One exit is blocked by a barbed wire fence gate and the other by a checkpoint gate.

As for base AAA, both have around 7-10 AAA guns of the leathel kind. Mostly 37mm, little to no effect on frame rates but totally devastating.

NS-IceFire
18-09-2007, 23:49
Good call.

With the 37mm I find only 5-6 is necessary. Anything over 10 is certainly overkill for the online environment. Offline too usually...the gunners are quite adept :)

Zorin
19-09-2007, 03:41
Good call.

With the 37mm I find only 5-6 is necessary. Anything over 10 is certainly overkill for the online environment. Offline too usually...the gunners are quite adept :)

I think there are 5 on the red base and 4 on the blue. The rest is a even mix of 20mm and 76/88mm.

Zorin
19-09-2007, 23:10
Test worked quite nicely. But it revealed that Il10s and A20Gs might get an airstart because of the objects on the runway, yet it had no noticeable effect on the target destruction, so I say we leave it this way.

The second result that only could show with a full server is that reds own blues quite obviously. 28 vs 12 kills.

Guess we need to adjust the plane set accordingly.

How about adding the A8 and reduce the number of available P63s to 8?

Algorex
19-09-2007, 23:26
You could add some p-39Qs (or even some VVS SF p-47D fighter bombers) to compensate the reduced amount of p-63s. Also limiting the il-10s and adding some il-2s is an option since the il-10 is a real air to air threat in the hands of any decent pilot.

NS-IceFire
19-09-2007, 23:30
I'd rather see you up the number of FW190D-9s to equalize the P-63. On the other hand the P-39Q might not be a bad idea either...Yak-3 is still the pure fighter on the team while the P-39Q/P-63 offers a solid ground attack option. I'm a big fan of the P-63 and I think it offers a valuable option against the Do-335 that none of the others offer.

Zorin
19-09-2007, 23:36
How about this?

Blue:

Fw190F8
Do335V-13 (locked SC1000) V13 is a decent tank buster against the late war Shermans and lighter tanks.

Bf109G-14
Fw190A6
Fw190A8(noMK108 or MK103)

Fw190D9`45=8

Red:

Il10=10
Il2Type3

LaGGRD
Yak3
MiG3U
P39Q-10=12
P63=8

(limited P47D10 as an option)

FlyingFinn
19-09-2007, 23:48
Hehehe, rocket LaGG? Even the Anton-6 will outrun that thing :D

NS-IceFire
19-09-2007, 23:52
Thats what is awesome about it :)

That looks good Zorin. Worth a try!

Zorin
19-09-2007, 23:54
Hehehe, rocket LaGG? Even the Anton-6 will outrun that thing :D

You just need to trim it right and don't make any stupid narrow turns and she'll happily fly around at 570km/h and in a straight line 610km/h.

Thats even enough to catch a bombloaded Do335 on the deck.

Firelok
20-09-2007, 18:38
How about this?

Blue:

Fw190F8
Do335V-13 (locked SC1000) V13 is a decent tank buster against the late war Shermans and lighter tanks.

Bf109G-14
Fw190A6
Fw190A8(noMK108 or MK103)

Fw190D9`45=8

Red:

Il10=10
Il2Type3

LaGGRD
Yak3
MiG3U
P39Q-10=12
P63=8

(limited P47D10 as an option)

I got the PM Zorin ,happy to make changes on your behalf. Have you thought about using the FW109D9 ? (not the late one.It is better might help blues.)
I can't see much use out of the FW190F8 either if the Do335 is an option.
*edit*
Changes made according to this list^^^

Zorin
20-09-2007, 19:08
I got the PM Zorin ,happy to make changes on your behalf. Have you thought about using the FW109D9 ? (not the late one.It is better might help blues.)
I can't see much use out of the FW190F8 either if the Do335 is an option.

Thanks a lot Fire for making the changes :)

I actually wanted the Germans to be in the role of the underdogs. They are quite far from home and therefor short of supplies and using outdated or used materials(D9late = worn-out D9'44). So I certainly didn't expect them to do as bad as they did. Yet even at the end of the map there were still three out of 12 D9s left. But we can keep the change in mind if further improvement to the blues performance is needed.

The F8 can actually carry a heavier bombload and is easier to maneuver close to the ground. Quite a number of Do335s were lost last time due to strafing accidents and low speed maneuvers.

Zorin
25-09-2007, 22:41
Had a new test tonight:

http://il2hq.com/stats_uk2/il2sc_stat/index.php?navigation=map/273/index.html

Balance is still quite a bit off . I don't know if the missing Fw190A8 would have made a difference or not but nonetheless, reds need to be limited further.

How about changing the Yak-3 into a Yak-9D?

Its quite a bit downsizing, but they still have the very potent Cobras and MiG3U.

NS-IceFire
25-09-2007, 23:34
Don't like that idea so much...why not just have unlimited D-9s or if not unlimited maybe a limit of 20? The FW190D-9, 1944 is BTW the higher performing model and the 1945 version is the lower performing one.

Ok here's another thought...Yak-1B is a higher performing model than the Yak-9D and is in the same vein as the Yak-3. But the D-9s need to stay where they are in that case.

Zorin
26-09-2007, 11:30
Don't like that idea so much...why not just have unlimited D-9s or if not unlimited maybe a limit of 20? The FW190D-9, 1944 is BTW the higher performing model and the 1945 version is the lower performing one.

Ok here's another thought...Yak-1B is a higher performing model than the Yak-9D and is in the same vein as the Yak-3. But the D-9s need to stay where they are in that case.

As I have stated at least 3 times already, the D9 45 is used to represent worn-down D9 44, because I know that the 45 has worst performance specs.

As for the 9D vs 1B, the 1B has a better low alt climb, but it turns slower and has a lower top speed at all altitudes, so why would it be the better choice??

Whirlinmerlin
26-09-2007, 11:56
Argh nuggets, was looking forward to this last night until I got a phone call to say that the programme (as in leaflety thing not codie thing) for my next am-dram production was going to be needed this morning by the printers andnot on friday. Hence my leaving in such a hurry to franticlly finish it.
Wanted to fly the crapola lagg thingy!

MD_Warlock
26-09-2007, 13:55
Had a new test tonight:

http://il2hq.com/stats_uk2/il2sc_stat/index.php?navigation=map/273/index.html

Balance is still quite a bit off . I don't know if the missing Fw190A8 would have made a difference or not but nonetheless, reds need to be limited further.

How about changing the Yak-3 into a Yak-9D?

Its quite a bit downsizing, but they still have the very potent Cobras and MiG3U.

I was on the aforementioned map. Even though I was flying in a group of five D9's using teamwork the blues were having trouble against the reds. IMHO 8 FWD9's is a pretty severe limitation, especially compared to the 100 Do335s (seems a bit backwards to me). The G14 and F8 are also a bit useless on the blue side--slow and non-maneuverable against the apex VVS planes. Saying that, I have no problem flying on either side as an underdog--but this one seems a bit overweighted for the reds.

My suggestion would be to bump up the available D9s and further restrict the P63 (a very potent FW killer). Instead of the F8's and A6's, a limited number of A9s could be used, and in place of the G14s some non-C3 109 K4's could be substituted. Reds IMO would still retain the advantage, but some balance would be added.

Zorin
26-09-2007, 15:52
Just to get this straight. This mission takes place May 1945 at the outskirts of German occupied territory.

To get you into perspective, even in 1943/44, the Luftwaffe mainly operated F4s and early Gs in this region.

I wanted to stick with this policy, with the Do335 being the only exception, of using rather "old" machinery to give the Luftwaffe the role of the underdog.

Didn't work out this way, yet, which will lead to further restricting Reds and NOT beafing up Blues.

Fw190F8
Do335V-13 (locked SC1000) V13 is a decent tank buster against the late war Shermans and lighter tanks.

Bf109G-14
Fw190A6
Fw190A8(noMK108 or MK103)

Fw190D9`45=12

Red:

Il10=10
Il2Type3

LaGGRD
Yak9D
MiG3U
P39Q-10=12
P63=4

NS-IceFire
26-09-2007, 23:39
As I have stated at least 3 times already, the D9 45 is used to represent worn-down D9 44, because I know that the 45 has worst performance specs.
Yes but you keep saying D9 '45 in various postings...but if its really 1944 then thats what it is.



As for the 9D vs 1B, the 1B has a better low alt climb, but it turns slower and has a lower top speed at all altitudes, so why would it be the better choice??
The 1B is supposedly still better than the 9D despite what IL-2 Compare says. The charts are close enough that the actual in game performance may be more affected by weight or something else. Still the 9D is one of the most common types of Yak so that works...

I also think if the P-63C is restricted to 4 it might as well just be taken off the list. Thats where lots of people get kicked or at least given warning points because 5 or 6 people pick that plane and fully expect to be able to use it at the beginning of a map.

Algorex
27-09-2007, 00:14
Actually the climb and turn differences in the charts between the yak-9D and yak-9/yak-1b are mostly due to the increase in fuel load (yak-9D has 850l tank while the others had 440l) as all the data is collected with 100% fuel. I'm actually quite suprised how close the perfomance is matched between the mid war yaks.

------------- strong opinion follows ------------------------

-----------Reader discretion strongly advised!---------------

I know the original idea was to make an after war play ground for the Do 335 on the eastern front, but i still think that we'd be better of with a more historical 1944 scenario based on the russian offensive in the murmansk area. No real need to alter the map just move the planeset a bit back to something like

FW 190F-8
FW 190A-8 (or A5 as modded A2/3)
bf 109G-2/G-6
bf 110
Ju 87D

yak-9D
p-39N/Q
p-40M (??)
il-2 3
a-20G

----------- The random idea stops here ----------

NS-IceFire
27-09-2007, 00:26
Thats a good idea Algore and perfectly workable.... The problem is that Zorin wants the Do-335 (and why not after all...its a fun plane!) but none of the other planes in the planeset are particularly high performance. Seeing as the Do-335 is a largely unused plane and its so enjoyable to fly I think its great to have it on a few different scenarios but it should be matched with a more appropriate hypothetical planeset instead of being all 1943/1944 planes plus the Do-335.

Going more hypothetical the FW190F-8 gets replaced with the Ta-152C with its pair of 250kg bombs which is relatively potent and its heavy firepower for air combat and hitting soft ground targets. You get the IL-10, Yak-3 or Yak-9UT and P-63 in there and you have some strange 1945 setup that'd be interesting to do...and thats all without having to use the La-7 that Zorin hates so much for whatever reason (its not even that good).

Zorin
27-09-2007, 17:39
@Algore: We can sure change it that way. No objections here.

@Ice: The Do335 is a 1943/44 design, it simply went down on the priority list and therefor never saw real frontline service.

So I don't see why it doesn't fit here. Plus, it ain't uber in any way: Do-335A-0 Sorties:120 Kills:17 Lost:63 K/D:0.27

Blues are getting owned because we added all the high performance planes cause we thought they are needed to run the Do335 down. But you can do that with any decent 44 plane cause the Do335 doesn't exceed 570km/h on the deck.

I would actually go so far as to loose the P63 entirely, unlimit the P39 and use the Yak9D/1B instead of the Yak3.

NS-IceFire
27-09-2007, 22:15
Design and implementation of design are different. I do enjoy flying it and find it to be quite deadly as its firepower is significant, its speed is high, its climb rate is high, its bombload is decent to significant (as SC1000 is locked I'd say just decent), its robust and able to withstand damage. Its really out of place in a planeset that otherwise includes mid war aircraft and then toss in ONE plane that didn't see actual service until weeks before the war ended and with the performance to match.

I do agree..loose the P-63 entirely if need be (choice between 4 and none I'd say none) and leave the P-39 and Yak-9D is fine but the Do-335 is then a pretty serious problem. All I have is memories of Libau with a group of Do-335 pilots diving in at high speed to hit the targets with me and others having slim to no chance to intercept and shoot them down at all...they were too fast for our Yaks and P-39s to catch. Heck on Rhur the Do-335's were hitting the targets with almost near impunity anyways by diving in from 3000 meters and then pulling out at high speed. The only reason I caught any was because I had 4000 meters and a Mustang and the Do-335 pilot pulled up out of the clouds when I got him. If he'd stayed low...it'd be 50/50 interception chance and maybe even less. Thats on a map where the opposition has a significantly faster top speed and/or heavier firepower. So I'm not sure how it works on this map.

I really need to play it to properly comment more but if it plays like Libau then its a problem without the other faster planes. And with those planes in place then the Blue side needs its faster planes too. So really the Do-335, in my mind, causes a problem to making the map fun for both sides. At present it doesn't sound like its fun for either and for different reasons.

And let me just say that I hope we can figure this one out because the map looks beautifully detailed and I think it *could* be fun but I think the planeset contains some dichotomys in it. Am I the only one who sees that? If it is then maybe its just me :)

Zorin
27-09-2007, 22:36
We played this three times in total, always with skeleton teams making up roughly 20 players in total and the Do335, even being flown by 4 pilots at a time, had no significant influence on the map.

Dogfighting usually takes place between 2500-4000m and the Do335 sneaks through to the target more or less untouched, only to be bounced and downed now and then.

All I can ask for is a real PRIME TIME TEST with a FULL server. Everything else is more or less useless as a basis to judge the balance of a map.

NS-IceFire
27-09-2007, 22:53
All I can ask for is a real PRIME TIME TEST with a FULL server. Everything else is more or less useless as a basis to judge the balance of a map.
Too true...perhaps this coming weekend! I really want to see it.

Firelok
08-10-2007, 22:54
Sorry I've not been on top of this as much as is usual, I've been away from IL2 for a bit:eek: .

I'll look to test it again this week when things are looking busy.

Zorin
20-10-2007, 17:33
Nearly a month has past since it was last played as far as I know. Is there still the will to give this a try or not?

Firelok
25-10-2007, 00:26
Tried this out this evening, attacking ground targets flying reds.
The AAA over the targets is most unenjoyable, although the use of a type VII submarine hidden by sheds is innovative, having it set on R.O.F. 1 and Veteran level accuracy is harsh.

Lots of us died attacking it, System was blown in half about 3 km way with 1500m height. I'm afraid it looks a little odd too once the sheds are destroyed, some of the players were asking why it was there.

I realize there are river patrol boats defending the Soviet bridging target and the Submarine makes for a balance of sorts but I think some other AAA defence would be preferable.

I'm not sure what to make of the discussions in the post above about the P39Q vs FW190D9_Late. perhaps not having either limited might be an idea but still restrict the P63s.

Zorin
25-10-2007, 00:56
Thanks for having another go at it :)

I removed the U-boat and substituted it with a single 20mm.

The plane set changed:

Fw190F8
Do335V-13 (locked SC1000)

Bf109G6A/S
Fw190A6
Fw190D9`45

Red:

A20G
Il10
Il2Type3

LaGGRD
Yak1B
MiG3U
P39Q-10

----------

The G6A/S replaced the G14 as its 20mm will be more useful.

The Yak1B replaced the Yak3.

This should work better I hope. Or not?

FlyingFinn
25-10-2007, 12:54
Took the Dornier for a ride and had a very hard time killing the Red tanks because they were protected by an invisible wall. Had to attack almost directly above or from some other odd angle to get a shot in.

Algorex
25-10-2007, 14:05
Took the Dornier for a ride and had a very hard time killing the Red tanks because they were protected by an invisible wall. Had to attack almost directly above or from some other odd angle to get a shot in.

That's just the trees etc, one bomb in the right place and they won't be a problem.

Firelok
25-10-2007, 17:58
Thanks for responding Zorin, the adjusted planeset looks good with the tweaked AAA we could be onto a winner.

I'll upload it when I get the files via eMail.:)

Zorin
25-10-2007, 18:10
Thanks for responding Zorin, the adjusted planeset looks good with the tweaked AAA we could be onto a winner.

I'll upload it when I get the files via eMail.:)

Ok :)

Zorin
05-11-2007, 13:59
Any news?

Firelok
08-11-2007, 07:17
I added it to the cycle.

One question though, the LaGG3 RD is restricted to 12 aircraft. Is it good enough to need this? There are a number of propfighters here that are better really and are unrestricted.

Zorin
08-11-2007, 08:58
You are right about its performance not actually justifying a numerical restriction, so you can lift it without it having an influence on the overall balance.

Zorin
16-11-2007, 20:11
Changed the Red targets with the aid of my new unit source.

Now we have:

schwere Panzerkompanie "Tiger" (fG) (2xTigerII + 8x TigerI)
mittlere Panzerkompanie a (12xPz.IV + equipment)
Werferbatterie (mot) 30cm NbW (6xMaultierRocket + 1xPAK50mm + equipment)
leichter Flakzug (3x20mm + equipment)
Geschützstaffel (4x 88mm + equipment)

Sonko
30-12-2007, 00:43
played it today and it was, er, kind of special :D

All blues took the Dornier and completed the ground objective in about ten
minutes. Red weren't really defending theirs, don't know what all the others
of red team were doing, as there were only about four reds trying to defend
their targets against a dornierish supremacy.
The Do should be limited to about 10 or so, or it should at least have limited
spawn space.

Later on there came a player onto TS who just got shot down by a Do and
stated most of the UKD maps being biased on blue when it comes to one
on one, but thats a bit off topic now. I don't think the planesets are biased
on one side.


Here a picture of all the Dorniers at the airfield as it was just a great sight:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r79/Anarchrist/dorniers.jpg

NS-IceFire
30-12-2007, 04:57
The only people who claim maps are biased towards blue never fly both sides. There are definitely some maps where blue is better than red and vice versa and its nothing intentional...getting the balance right is tricky. Do-335 is just a killer plane with its high speed, climb rate, and internal weapons capacity...its difficult to balance. I noticed even with the Iron Curtain map where Red has almost all of its late war arsenal the Do-335 is still dominating the hit and run attacks.

Do-335's seem to have more to fear from Mustangs and Tempests than they do from La-7s, P-63s, and Yak-9Us.

FlyingFinn
30-12-2007, 08:23
Good one Sonko. Post a few more, please? :D

I admit the person mentioned above caused some headache for me when I tried my best to solve his problem but decided to stay quiet after Boemher and the lot spoke up.

I can totaly understand that the red planeset might cause pain for some individuals as there is no La-5/Spitfire Mk.IX setup this time and they have to rely on "oddball" planes like the P-39Q-10 and the MiG-3U. But that how it works, the men in real life didn't have the choise to complain the lack of Spitfires or they found themselves real quick in a camp far, far away from the frontlines ;)

Zorin
30-12-2007, 10:44
Thanks for posting :)

Yet I see no reason to limit the Do in any way. As the previous four pages show, it never owned the map before and all you did was destroy the ground targets which is what the Do335 V13 is supposed to do. With reds not really defending, there is little valuable info about the results of the actual planeset change.

Especially in the role as a fighter-bomber the Do335 has no better chance of survival than any other bomber, just look at the K/D of the Do335 and V13, both are 0.5.

Bf-110: 0.41
Beaufighter: 0,57
Il-2_1940_Early: 0.53

Even the "lousy" Bf-109G6 has a better K/D: 0.57

It is just that it looks impressive on the paper, but in actual combat it is nothing to be afraid of.

FlyingFinn
30-12-2007, 10:47
I think those Do-335s we had were version V-0 instead of the 3xMK103 V-13 version.

frettch3n
02-01-2008, 16:24
Good one Sonko. Post a few more, please?
Here you go! (http://battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?p=185771#post185771)

Without reading the full 5 pages of this thread i present my thoughts:
Limiting the spawn space to, let's say 4, is a very good idea! 14 Do335s are unstoppable for a red defense, the first wave will hit the targets without any p-39 in position to attack. [ highly theoretical situation, but look at sonkos screenshot ... ]. And it's hard for any fighter on the map to intercept the Do335 and shoot it down in reasonable time. [ i mean without beeing dragged back to blue base in the process ]. Look at Ice's post for another scenario why the Do is nearly invincible when on a ground attack mission.

Second thought: Why include Do335 at all? It's mid '44. The targets can easily be taken out by Ju-88's. Do335 needs a different scenario. This of course would make the map into "just-another-eastern-front-midwar-munch".
Targtes are very close to each other, so one smaller bomb usually gets two tanks.

Third thought: Yak1B??

Zorin
02-01-2008, 17:26
This is summer 1945.

Before we changed the planeset Blues got owned and now you start this whole thing again only based upon a single mission where everyone flew a Do335. :confused:

It would have been the same for a 42 mission with Mossies. :mad:

Every single time I flew this mission there were like 3 or 4 Do's in the air max... :wall:

I just don't get it :(

frettch3n
02-01-2008, 18:16
as said before, i did not went through the, now, 7 pages again, so sorry for that.


Every single time I flew this mission there were like 3 or 4 Do's in the air max... :wall:


so why not limit the spawn space to 3 of 4? it won't hurt blue at all. add another bomber or stuka and you are there.

and some spacing between the red tanks won't do no harm, they are very close together.


It would have been the same for a 42 mission with Mossies.

not that it matters for this thread: g2 should be about 100 km/h faster then the mossie.

NS-IceFire
03-01-2008, 00:02
I still haven't had a chance to see this in action but the Do-335 is just such an amazing plane I still don't know what chance the red team has against it. Its an utterly difficult opponent on the Rhur and Iron Curtain maps and thats with far better planes against it.

Just going with my gut here. I'm not sure if the map is balanced ultimately or not...its sure to be controversial. I just can't say without actually being there and getting a feel for both sides.

Zorin
03-01-2008, 15:10
I still haven't had a chance to see this in action but the Do-335 is just such an amazing plane I still don't know what chance the red team has against it. Its an utterly difficult opponent on the Rhur and Iron Curtain maps and thats with far better planes against it.

Just going with my gut here. I'm not sure if the map is balanced ultimately or not...its sure to be controversial. I just can't say without actually being there and getting a feel for both sides.

If it would be such an amazing plane, how come it has such a low K/D of only 0.5?

I can only repeat myself, it is a decent but not outstanding plane.

This situation is just like the Beaufighter on the Burma map.

It can run from any opposition if pushed hard enough, but as soon as a dogfight evolves it will get into serious trouble.

But to give you all what you ask for I'll limit the spawnpoints to four only, which will lead to some trouble for the F8 trying to reach the three grids afar target without getting bounced, yet you ask for it and I happily deliver.

Boemher
03-01-2008, 15:28
@Ice: The Do335 is a 1943/44 design, it simply went down on the priority list and therefor never saw real frontline service.

........

If it would be such an amazing plane, how come it has such a low K/D of only 0.5?

I can only repeat myself, it is a decent but not outstanding plane.


The 1st Tempest V rolled of the production line in August 1943 iirc, 1st squadron equipped Dec43/Jan44.

The Fw 190 D9 (Fw 190 with a Jumo 213) first flew around september 42 again iirc.

The Me 262 first flew in 41 ....

ect

Stats only represent numpties who fly them. If 8 out of 10 people get killed while attacking a tank column the D0335's stats reflect that. Tempest has poor stats yet fighter vs fighter combat alone would suggest it is a good aircraft.

How often does the Fw 190 D9 or La7 get shot down while bombing or rocketing targets > ? Hardly ever because they dont have the correct loadouts (La7 does but La7 pilots dont care about targets lol)

I liked the sound of a Western front based derivative of this map. I think we need more Tempest maps :)

Boemher
03-01-2008, 16:17
not that it matters for this thread: g2 should be about 100 km/h faster then the mossie.

Frettch the Mossie is faster than any Bf 109 up to the G6AS from somewhere around 3000m to sea level.

On Scheldt someguy in a Fw 190 A6 couldnt catch me at sea level , he chased me for about 5 min and juist couldnt close to guns range.

Trim it out and it is faaast for a 42/43 plane

Zorin
03-01-2008, 21:55
I will consider a western map with this setup later.

As of now, I simplified the red airbase, getting rid of the airstart nonsense, and introducing the I-185-M82A. Thoroughly checked it via IL2 Compare and it turned out to be an even match for the blue opposition, completing the red oddity planeset rather nicely.

Should this fail in the next two test I will turn it into a historical mission as suggested before in this thread and let it go as a regular eastern map among so many others.

NS-IceFire
03-01-2008, 22:52
If it would be such an amazing plane, how come it has such a low K/D of only 0.5?

I can only repeat myself, it is a decent but not outstanding plane.

This situation is just like the Beaufighter on the Burma map.

It can run from any opposition if pushed hard enough, but as soon as a dogfight evolves it will get into serious trouble.

But to give you all what you ask for I'll limit the spawnpoints to four only, which will lead to some trouble for the F8 trying to reach the three grids afar target without getting bounced, yet you ask for it and I happily deliver.
Honestly I have no idea how the ratio can be so bad. There's all sorts of reasons why the stats can be skewed but I'd love to see a proper statistics based graph before making any sort of proper observations why. I just can't imagine its ratio being so low given the following:

1) Its very fast (in a dive it out runs almost everything except jets)
2) It climbs quickly at a high rate of speed
3) It does the first two while carrying a SC1000 bomb safely tucked away in its bomb bay (although limited in this case)
4) It has two engines
5) The engines are counter rotating making it very stable
6) Both engines have fire extinguishers
7) The structure of the plane is strong (not exceptional but strong)
8) Roll rate ranges from good to exceptional at high speed
9) Its firepower ranges from excellent to extreme (A-0 versus V-13)

This is only mitigated by the following:

1) Its large so presenting a large target from some aspects
2) When hit from behind one engine is easily exposed to enemy fire where a conventionally configured twin does not face the same sort of vulnerability
3) Its turn rate is quite low and its sustained turn is very low
4) In a full real environment the rearward visibility is only average

I am probably also repeating myself but don't think I have a vendetta against this plane...I just think its bloody good. On some UK dedicated maps I've managed to get bounced by several fighters, take damage, have an engine light on fire, put it out, get hit by flak, and have both wings damaged and managed to still outrun the opposition/have them shot down by friendly fighters and land the plane successfully. That was one sortie and I have several to back it up. If thats not enough I've had an outrageously good time with it on the 334th server where I take a SC1000, climb to 3500m, loiter around above the enemy base, and when enough people have spawned I put the plane into a dive, release the bomb, and run like heck for base. If I don't get too bothered by fighters on the return I climb back up and boom and zoom until the ammo is gone. Not to say I haven't been shot down in it...but its great. Love it!

Now thats me...but I think the K/D ratio may be either not accurate or its likely that given the Do-335's excellent strike fighter capability that its skewed because its not as often actively hunting enemy fighters. I've probably not contributed to the kills too much since I tend to fly it straight in at high speed, drop the bomb, and fly straight out at high speed and nobody touched me because they can't even intercept me. But I could have screwed the landing and got killed or random hit by flak on one run or something like that. Ground pounders always have a bad K/D ratio simply because the deaths start piling up and its not getting the kills.

I've been on both sides of the engagement...its a top notch aircraft but its roll in how its employed may often diminish its potential. It'd be interesting to see it employed as a bomber hunter sometime...but the bomber pilots may not like that much.

Zorin
03-01-2008, 23:28
Thanks Ice, I really appreciate your thoughtful posts. :)

You stated valid points, but as you pointed out, if you don't get the chance to bounce an enemy all you can do is hit and run in the ground attack role, which is what the plane is meant to do in this mission.

And please don't think I wouldn't like her, it's just that I prefer her as a ground attack plane. I seldom find myself in a position good enough to confidently enter a dogfight. Against bombers, yes, but sure not against any later war fighter opposition.

NS-IceFire
04-01-2008, 22:40
You should try it the next time you can as a fighter only :). I rarely ever do it myself as well but I have done it and I've seen a few other people do it (been shot down at least once in recent memory by one). The boom and zoom style is very strict...much more so than the FW190...but its more extreme too. The weight of the plane means the zoom climbs are excellent.

But its deadly! Somewhat difficult but deadly and almost untouchable. Nothings impossible but its a really tough customer :D

Zorin
11-01-2008, 22:45
Altered file has been send. Please check on the spawn limit for the Do335 as it is a bit of a gamble to limit the spawn area to allow for the correct number of planes.

And I did add the La5FN for Reds instead of the I-185, no need to stress myself with another odd plane. ;)

Firelok
18-01-2008, 08:35
I've updated this, sorry for the delay.:o

Zorin
11-09-2009, 11:46
I have altered the plane set and would like to see this new version added to the new cycle.

FBDj gives us all the freedom we need to limit the Do335, preventing a new argument ;)

Red
A-20G
Il-10
Il-2_M3
LaGG-3RD
P-39Q-10
P-47D-27
Yak-9U

Blue
Bf-109G-14
Bf-109G-6_Late
Do-335A-0 (total of 16 and 4 in the air - no SC1000)
Fw-190A-6
Fw-190A-9
Fw-190F-8

Sonko
13-09-2009, 09:45
ok you can mail it to zonkoi at gmx dot de

Zorin
13-09-2009, 10:49
Sure.

Is it zonko or zonkoi?

Sonko
13-09-2009, 10:51
oi

Zorin
14-09-2009, 08:05
My GPU kicked the bucket so I had to send in my Laptop resulting in a delay for sending the files Sonko.