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Zorin
07-12-2007, 17:56
Just an idea, maybe it will develop into a mission.

Bryansk is situated southwest of Moscow and therefor I wanted to combine Fw190A-4 + Bf109F4 action with a Lend-Lease russian plane set.

VVS

A-20C
A-20G

HurricaneMkIIbMod
LaGG-3series35
I-16 24
IL2 2M
P-39D1
Yak-9

Luftwaffe

Bf-109F-4
Bf-110G-2
Me-210
Fw-190A-4
Ju-87D-5
Ju-88A-4

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6606/bryanskmapkn2.jpg

SUGGESTIONS WANTED

NS-IceFire
07-12-2007, 22:35
Looks good. I think the planeset so far is pretty balanced...can't say I would make any changes either. Looks good.

Would red have a second base further back or just the one?

Zorin
07-12-2007, 22:47
Looks good. I think the planeset so far is pretty balanced...can't say I would make any changes either. Looks good.

Would red have a second base further back or just the one?

Reds would only have one base, but it is of the bigger diamond shaped concrete type, so that should do alright. The next closest airfield would be about two grids north if I remember correctly, which would render it more or less useless.

NS-IceFire
07-12-2007, 23:18
Got it. Should be alright then...if it proved to be a problem having the rear base as an option could then be a backup.

If it turns into something like the Bocage map where Red would often end up over the only Blue base and having something back two grids would be fine because missions flown there would be to defend the first base. Anyways not necessary for now if the first one is a good size...if it proves to be a problem then at least you have options :)

Firelok
07-12-2007, 23:59
type 24 I 16 might be interesting, they still got used up to 1943. It's fairly uber on early maps but against the 190A4? A brave but interesting ride:D

Maybe an earlier version on the P39 might be OK too, the P39 N is pretty good against 109 Gustavs and Fw190A5s and is a nightmare for the Ju88s.

Do we get an LaGG with the kinderwud VyA? :D

One of the interesting things about this part of 1943 is that both sides were keeping back their best equipment for the summer battles (Kursk etc.) but the Soviets needed to straighten out their front so Bryansk was important.

It should be good fun.

Zorin
08-12-2007, 00:14
Got it. Should be alright then...if it proved to be a problem having the rear base as an option could then be a backup.

If it turns into something like the Bocage map where Red would often end up over the only Blue base and having something back two grids would be fine because missions flown there would be to defend the first base. Anyways not necessary for now if the first one is a good size...if it proves to be a problem then at least you have options :)

Will keep this definitely in mind, always good to have backup options.



type 24 I 16 might be interesting, they still got used up to 1943. It's fairly uber on early maps but against the 190A4? A brave but interesting ride

Maybe an earlier version on the P39 might be OK too, the P39 N is pretty good against 109 Gustavs and Fw190A5s and is a nightmare for the Ju88s.

Do we get an LaGG with the kinderwud VyA?

One of the interesting things about this part of 1943 is that both sides were keeping back their best equipment for the summer battles (Kursk etc.) but the Soviets needed to straighten out their front so Bryansk was important.

It should be good fun.

Some question for you guys:

1. Do we need an IL2 option?
Info: I-16s were solely delegated to Il2 escort duties starting in 1942.

2. F4 vs Yak-9, tough but good challenge or are we in need of G2?

3. If we keep the P39N, cause it is on par with the F4, do we need another big cannon LaGG?

NS-IceFire
08-12-2007, 01:13
Looking at IL-2 Compare suggests that the F-4 and Yak-9 are fairly evenly matched. P-39N stuggled against FW190A-4s on the Stalingrad map so I'm not too worried about it. The LaGG-3 Series 66 doesn't have the VYa 23mm option...so if we wanted that it would have to be one of the two earlier series.

Zorin
08-12-2007, 01:18
Looking at IL-2 Compare suggests that the F-4 and Yak-9 are fairly evenly matched. P-39N stuggled against FW190A-4s on the Stalingrad map so I'm not too worried about it. The LaGG-3 Series 66 doesn't have the VYa 23mm option...so if we wanted that it would have to be one of the two earlier series.

If we would change the P39N to a D version it would only have the 20mm instead of the 30mm of the N and therefor we would change the LaGG66 to 35 to allow for the Vya cannon.

Firelok
08-12-2007, 09:08
If we would change the P39N to a D version it would only have the 20mm instead of the 30mm of the N and therefor we would change the LaGG66 to 35 to allow for the Vya cannon.

Sounds good. The P39D2 and the Vya armed LaGG don't get much use is what I was thinking. P39D2 is a little more lively than the P39N in terms of speed and the LaGG 35 is still a bit of a lump but with the Vya its a bit more destructive.

With having no Sturmoviks (which is interesting.) is this too early for the A20G?

Algorex
08-12-2007, 11:17
Bryansk wasn't captured or even contested until after Kursk in the Operation Kutuzov. I suggest you find a new operation to base the map on, personally i'd go for something like Velikiye Luki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velikiye_Luki).

The airacobra should definately be a P-39D also the P-40E M-105 can be replaced by normal p-40e or a p-40m as the M-105 mod was really rare. I like the i-16s24 idea (as many of them were used for ground attack missions where il-2s were not available)

Zorin
08-12-2007, 13:39
Bryansk wasn't captured or even contested until after Kursk in the Operation Kutuzov. I suggest you find a new operation to base the map on, personally i'd go for something like Velikiye Luki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Velikiye_Luki).

The airacobra should definately be a P-39D also the P-40E M-105 can be replaced by normal p-40e or a p-40m as the M-105 mod was really rare. I like the i-16s24 idea (as many of them were used for ground attack missions where il-2s were not available)

Bryansk was occupied by the Germans from October 6, 1941 to September 17, 1943 and the city was heavily damaged by fighting.

Plus, I based it on original battle maps so I don't think there is the need to relocate it.

Algorex
08-12-2007, 13:49
Bryansk was occupied by the Germans from October 6, 1941 to September 17, 1943 and the city was heavily damaged by fighting.

Plus, I based it on original battle maps so I don't think there is the need to relocate it.

Captured by the russian, in february '43 (and until august that year) Bryansk was 100km away from the front lines and not actively contested by the russians.

Zorin
08-12-2007, 14:07
Captured by the russian, in february '43 (and until august that year) Bryansk was 100km away from the front lines and not actively contested by the russians.

Well, I see what you mean, hard to find a battle that suits an online dogfight map. Directly over a front line is not exactly where long range bombers were used and therefor I was looking for a mission that would make sense in the way that you would have an important target behind the front line(enemy forces on their way to the front) and for the other team a spear head advancing through a breach in the front.

It would usually be spread out wider, but as we are restricted to a 4x4 grid the whole action is "forced" into a small area.

NS-IceFire
08-12-2007, 16:22
If the map works then I'd say its quite alright. History is important but in this case if a map works nicely and its loosely based on the history it'll be just fine.

Zorin
11-12-2007, 15:17
German units:

1x Panzerspähkompanie b
1x leichte Panzerkompanie
1x leichte Panzerkompanie f
1x mittlere Panzerkompanie
2x schwerer Kanonenzug (7,5cm)

1x Panzer-Fliegerabwehrzug (3x 3,7cm Flak 43)
1x Heeres-Flakbatterie (3x 2cm Flak 38 + 4x 8,8cm Flak 18)

= 272 targets (Motorcycle -> Pz.IVE) = ~7000 points

Zorin
11-12-2007, 16:03
German radar installation

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/radar_bryansk.jpg

Zorin
11-12-2007, 16:59
I'd like to restrict the A20 bombload to the russian bombs only, except the FAB-1000. Will that cause too much trouble in terms of "loadout kicks"?

Firelok
11-12-2007, 17:13
I'd like to restrict the A20 bombload to the russian bombs only, except the FAB-1000. Will that cause too much trouble in terms of "loadout kicks"?

With 272 targets why be concerned about any bombload at all? For the most part the 'western' bomb loadouts are less effective compared to Russian FAB options. Limiting all these bombloads will cause lots of confusion and it's the only bomber.

Even if the A20 has the 1000kg option this is only the same as 4x500kgs or 2x100kgs on a Ju88.

I think you should leave everything as unlimited as possible, test it, then make adjustments as neccessary.

Zorin
11-12-2007, 17:31
With 272 targets why be concerned about any bombload at all? For the most part the 'western' bomb loadouts are less effective compared to Russian FAB options. Limiting all these bombloads will cause lots of confusion and it's the only bomber.

Even if the A20 has the 1000kg option this is only the same as 4x500kgs or 2x100kgs on a Ju88.

I think you should leave everything as unlimited as possible, test it, then make adjustments as neccessary.

The 272 targets include loads of trucks, cars and motorcycles + 39 Pz.IIF, which will be destroyed by the bombblast of the big bombs (FAB 500 and 1000), thats why I was concerned about it. But we'll test and see how it plays with only the FAB 1000 restricted.

Armored targets: 49 (tanks + howitzers)

Soft armored targets: 39 Pz.IIF

Soft targets: 184 (cars, trucks + motorcycles)

Zorin
11-12-2007, 18:30
2km full of targets:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/targets_bryansk.jpg

Comments welcome :)

Algorex
11-12-2007, 18:36
That's going to be a pain in the rear quarters to attack without cluster canisters or parafrags.

Sonko
11-12-2007, 19:26
No IL-2? only it could effectively cluster away the 270 target imo.

Zorin
11-12-2007, 22:18
If you think it is a must we can add the Il-2 M. But only the Il-2 3 carries the anti-tank cluster bombs.

Zorin
11-12-2007, 22:29
Added the Il2 2M and the A-20 G model, that way introducing the parafrag option and a bomber airstart.

VVS

A-20C
A-20G

HurricaneMkIIbMod
LaGG-3series66
Il-2 2M (later series)
I-16 24
P-39D2
P-40E
Yak-9

Luftwaffe

Bf-109F-4
Bf-110G-2
Fw-190A-4
Ju-87D-5
Ju-88A-4

Zorin
12-12-2007, 11:51
Right now we have 6 different fighters on the red side, a bit much IMO, which one you could live without when keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a Lend/Lease planeset?

Algorex
12-12-2007, 12:35
Right now we have 6 different fighters on the red side, a bit much IMO, which one you could live without when keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a Lend/Lease planeset?

I'd have to say it would be the P-40, it's not a great fighter and now that the il-2 is on the job, the ground attack aspect isn't that important either.

Sonko
12-12-2007, 15:38
or kick out the yak9 instead.
the LaGGs66 is quite good, its as fast as the p39 and turns even better and doesnt have the stall of death. maybe you want to kick the LaGG because its too good :D
p40 is more of a danger to the F4, especially when flown at ~2500+m and it needs lots of hits before going down.

Firelok
12-12-2007, 17:19
Yak 9 in my book, if only because it isn't a lease lend, the LaGG with a Vya cannon will be fun ( think on it like the Reds version of the Bf110 here.) P40 field-mod fit's the lease-lend criteria.

Zorin
12-12-2007, 17:59
Thr Vya LaGG is the 35, which's performance can't be compared to the 66 version.

Best will be to kick out the P40, change to the LaGG-3series35 and keep the Yak-9 to have a well rounded fighter.

Zorin
12-12-2007, 21:58
Soviet units:

Armored targets: 64 (tanks + howitzers)

Soft targets: 66 (cars, trucks + artillery)

= 130 targets

Zorin
12-12-2007, 23:19
Btw, targets are a column heading south east and a supply train station.

Zorin
13-12-2007, 15:45
Files will be ready and send with all the altered map files for Kauen and Hungary.

Zorin
14-12-2007, 00:33
What would you say if this would have similar ToD settings than Istra?

Firelok
14-12-2007, 06:49
What would you say if this would have similar ToD settings than Istra?

I think you'd be hiding a lot of the creation you've spent ages working on, seriously you should consider somewhere between 10.30am and 2.30pm with no cloud :eek:

We haven't anything like that, yet in the real world winter conditions like this would call for maximum air activity.

I'm often suprised by how Istra's been accepted and long term complaints are minimal, I suppose because both sides targets are within a 7km strip right in the centre of the map in an easy to find area but there's lots of little touches that I'd accept as just not being noticable when flying it.

Zorin
14-12-2007, 09:10
Ok, so it'll be 10:30am, creates good hard shadows and blinding snow, which is nice for a change in times of glooming sunsets and hazy mountains.

Firelok
14-12-2007, 09:23
Ok, so it'll be 10:30am, creates good hard shadows and blinding snow, which is nice for a change in times of glooming sunsets and hazy mountains.

Exactly:)

Zorin
14-12-2007, 11:18
This has been renamed and slightly altered to represent "Operation Totila". The final to the Battle of Velikiye Luki, as suggested by Algore. Sorry for my stubbornness, you were absolutely right in the first place. :o

Firelok
14-12-2007, 15:12
Map is uploaded for testing

Totila.mis

shame about the P39D2, the P39D1 is very different and underpowered:(

I altered the name of this thread to Operation Totila so things are clearer later on.

Zorin
14-12-2007, 16:33
Map is uploaded for testing

Totila.mis

shame about the P39D2, the P39D1 is very different and underpowered:(

I altered the name of this thread to Operation Totila so things are clearer later on.

If you know how to lock the M4 gun we can have the D2 instead. I simply didn't know the correct writing so it is locked, cause as we already have the Vya LaGG I don't want another bomber hunter besides it and the Il2 and I16.

Zorin
14-12-2007, 23:11
Ran a great test with a full server 30+ players :)

- Briefing was totally wrong, showed the Odessa mission briefing for whatever reason and after a few minutes no briefing at all
- 26 to 26 airkills - planeset felt very balanced
- targets were worked pretty good, especially by the IL2 fraction
- Chatanooga, our I16 fanboy, was enjoying himself with his little cannon armed oddball

Résumé: Ready for the circle :)

Firelok
15-12-2007, 19:54
Briefing was totally wrong, showed the Odessa mission briefing for whatever reason and after a few minutes no briefing at all

I was in an awful rush when I uploaded these files, I neglected to add the .properties file to the server:o
It's fixed now.

Glad it went Ok.

Zorin
20-12-2007, 01:36
I just saw the results of tonights run and it showed 27 to 40 kills in favour of blue. What happened? On the first test with a full server it was so evenly matched :confused:

Firelok
20-12-2007, 02:06
I just saw the results of tonights run and it showed 27 to 40 kills in favour of blue. What happened? On the first test with a full server it was so evenly matched :confused:

Look how many bombers Red lost compared to Blue, although I'm thinking it adds the Bf110 into the Fighter count not Bomber. There were a fair few 110s shot up whilst attacking.

The stats package counts losses as kills for the other side, so this is the effect of evil AAA and the FW190 vs A20s. Not one Red fighter is of the same cailbre in terms of intercept speed and hitting power.

Both sides need a lower percentage of targets to destroy, as objectives neither side is attainable within the time limit / flight distances, and less AAA over the targets in my opinion. Flying Blue this was probably brilliant fun, didn't really get the chance. :(

Zorin
20-12-2007, 02:40
Look how many bombers Red lost compared to Blue, although I'm thinking it adds the Bf110 into the Fighter count not Bomber. There were a fair few 110s shot up whilst attacking.

The stats package counts losses as kills for the other side, so this is the effect of evil AAA and the FW190 vs A20s. Not one Red fighter is of the same cailbre in terms of intercept speed and hitting power.

Both sides need a lower percentage of targets to destroy, as objectives neither side is attainable within the time limit / flight distances, and less AAA over the targets in my opinion. Flying Blue this was probably brilliant fun, didn't really get the chance. :(

Less AAA?

Red:

2km convoy: 2x 20mm + 1x 37mm

Radar station: 4x 88mm (which don't fire up on low level attack as you approach below their 0° position and after that you are to close for them to fire up) + 1x 20mm +1x 37mm

Blue

Convoy + station: 4x 76mm (basically same characteristics as 88mm) + 3x 20mm + 2x Shkas

So, what do you suggest?

Reducing the amount to 75% is what I had in mind after the first run already, but the problem is that the majority of targets are trucks and therefor it wouldn't require any tank kills to finish the targets. :(

Well and the Fw190, it was the best fighter when it was introduced so we could only restrict the numbers in the air if required to avoid it being to uber.

NS-IceFire
20-12-2007, 03:57
I attacked the red targets several times in a Bf110 and while two of the three losses were due to enemy fighter cover in all three cases I was hit either in the left or right engine by flak on the first or second pass. It was pretty heavy...particularly the heavy flak (75mm or 80mm or something that size).

Whatever you've got there its murderous without the fighters buzzing around :)

Love the target setup tho...its allot of fun and I had some good success with the AB500 bombs on the 110.

Sonko
20-12-2007, 10:05
On blue side were some 190 jocks that made quite many kills.
I did quite good in my Yak9 too, as I nearly never was alone, the next friendly was only 2 mins away all time.

As I was passing over the blue column, I was followed by a swarm of smoke puffs which looked very funny, but I went away multiple times not to geht shot down by it.

I liked the map, although because of the heavy aaa it needs some teamplay to return home safely.

Zorin
20-12-2007, 10:14
Generally speaking, an approach between 2k and 4k is the worst you can do for this kind of target/AAA setup, which should be obvious for us regulars.

To compensate this, Reds got an airstart (2k) and the Blue's heavy bomber is stationed on the field furthest from targets to allow for a climb to dive bombing or level bombing altitude in a direct approach.


But we can of course reduce the heavy and medium AAA.

Sonko
20-12-2007, 10:48
Generally speaking, an approach between 2k and 4k is the worst you can do for this kind of target/AAA setup, which should be obvious for us regulars.

yeah, normally this alt is death for any plane in real life.
its just that on most UKD maps the aaa is only light, there are only a few exceptions.

Zorin
20-12-2007, 11:16
Just did a little math:

Blue troops: 30targets/gun

Red troops: 14targets/gun

That doesn't exceed our usual limits, as far as I can tell from memory.

But I think with a lower player frequency in mind, reduction of AAA is inevitable.

Firelok
20-12-2007, 16:15
One of the Sturmovik attacks I did, along with Wingless was at 0 metres alt dropping napalm at about 380kph, Wingless retreated after one pass with a wrecked engine, I went back to suppress AAA and got shot in half.
I accept that I had an awful time flying red on this map and it has coloured my judgement a bit.
Important things do work, targets,it looks great,no lag.

Zorin
20-12-2007, 16:41
One of the Sturmovik attacks I did, along with Wingless was at 0 metres alt dropping napalm at about 380kph, Wingless retreated after one pass with a wrecked engine, I went back to suppress AAA and got shot in half.
I accept that I had an awful time flying red on this map and it has coloured my judgement a bit.
Important things do work, targets,it looks great,no lag.

Sounds like a straight line approach, very dangerous with 37mm in the area. It will vector in on your plane and as we all know, one hit can tear you apart.

During my countless offline test I always came in on an angle and destroyed the AAA with rockets from a more or less safe distance.

Firelok
20-12-2007, 19:44
Less AAA?

Red:

2km convoy: 2x 20mm + 1x 37mm

Radar station: 4x 88mm (which don't fire up on low level attack as you approach below their 0° position and after that you are to close for them to fire up) + 1x 20mm +1x 37mm

Blue

Convoy + station: 4x 76mm (basically same characteristics as 88mm) + 3x 20mm + 2x Shkas

So, what do you suggest?

THis isn't correct.
RED's targets
Panzer Convoy has 3xFlak38's (20mm) 1xFlak37 (37mm)

Radar Station 4xFlak88s 1xFlak37 1xFlak38

BLUE's targets

2 4xShkas(Maxims), 2x25mm, 2x 76mm, 2x85mm.

There is actually stronger AAA round the targets than any of the airfields.

Zorin
20-12-2007, 23:15
THis isn't correct.
RED's targets
Panzer Convoy has 3xFlak38's (20mm) 1xFlak37 (37mm)

Radar Station 4xFlak88s 1xFlak37 1xFlak38

BLUE's targets

2 4xShkas(Maxims), 2x25mm, 2x 76mm, 2x85mm.

There is actually stronger AAA round the targets than any of the airfields.

Oh, even less for red targets and that third 20mm at the blue convoy I was convinced I had replaced with a static object version. :o

Blue airfields are protected by two 37mm and a Maultier.
Red airfield is protected by two 37mm and two 25mm.

I thought that would be more than sufficient.

Firelok
21-12-2007, 10:36
I think the Flak 38 (20mm) is the most dangerous light flak in the game (for single barrel emplacements anyway.) it seems very different to the normal 20mm Mauliter flak to me.

I read this week that the Wermacht bought Bofors 40mm AAA from Sweden as well as the Allies, I didn't know this.

Zorin
21-12-2007, 13:34
I think the Flak 38 (20mm) is the most dangerous light flak in the game (for single barrel emplacements anyway.) it seems very different to the normal 20mm Mauliter flak to me.

I read this week that the Wermacht bought Bofors 40mm AAA from Sweden as well as the Allies, I didn't know this.

The main difference is the firing rate.

2cm Flak 30 = 120rpm

2cm Flak 38 = 220rpm


Btw, our Nimrods (hungarian Flakpanzer) should actually have 40mm Bofors cannons, but in game they are 20mm or something of that sort...

Zorin
23-12-2007, 01:51
Have we come to a conclusion in how far we want to limit the Flak?

I would say:

Blue convoy: 2x 20mm Flak 38 + 1x 37mm Flak

Radar station: remains the way it is now

Red convoy + station: No Shkas to make life easier for the fighter boys

Zorin
04-01-2008, 13:43
As there is no further feedback I will send you the changes as stated above, Firelok.

Algorex
04-01-2008, 13:46
No feedback since at least to my knowledge it hasn't been played after last time around

Zorin
04-01-2008, 13:56
Over two weeks without a new test being initiated, guess this sums it up nicely...

Chatanooga
04-01-2008, 15:10
Well it has been Christmas and New Year, some people, who normally set up testing have been away, I'm sure we will get round to it soon :)

I'll try to get it over this weekend.

Firelok
04-01-2008, 20:59
Chata's right, tonight is first time I've even logged on to the forums since before Xmas. I think the reduced levels of AAA you've suggested are fine. If this is all you are changing it seems mad to send in a whole new set of files, when I can do it in 5 minutes. If this is OK I'll change it according to your post above Zorin.

Zorin
04-01-2008, 23:06
Chata's right, tonight is first time I've even logged on to the forums since before Xmas. I think the reduced levels of AAA you've suggested are fine. If this is all you are changing it seems mad to send in a whole new set of files, when I can do it in 5 minutes. If this is OK I'll change it according to your post above Zorin.

That would be great, thanks Firelok :)

Firelok
05-01-2008, 10:07
Ok, tweaked artillery version is now uploaded.

Zorin
13-01-2008, 01:03
Ok, tweaked artillery version is now uploaded.

Is this still admin-called only?

Couldn't find it since the 19.12.07 on the stats page.