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Eagle1_Division
26-02-2008, 22:06
Its Been awhile since ive posted on these forums... Anyhow, Ive made a map and got it set up to work on UK.2/UK.3 servers, really designed for UK.2, though(has unflyables, B24, B17).

One of my favourite things about the game is flying in bomber formations, these dont happen alot, though. One of the best ways, Ive found, to get people to fly a formation is a long and dangerous flight, and of course an important target. I thought the map would be fun for fighters also-escorting a bomber formation, or trying to shoot one down.

So, this is the map, western based, mid-late war(1944).
(Reference)
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3936/themapkeeperko5.th.png (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=themapkeeperko5.png)
The U.S. has:
B-17F(Limit 6),
B-24,
B-25,
P-51D(5NT Variant),
P-51D(20NA variant, limit 10)
Spitfire(Mk7 and 8)
Spitfire Mk9c(limit 4)
P-38(J and L variants)
and P-47(D and D-27 variants)
and finally, the Tempest.

The Germans are armed with:
Bf-109E-4 and F4(one of the 2 at every airbase)
Bf-109G-2
Bf-109G-6(limit 6)
Bf-110G-2(limit 4)(Airbase B)
Fw-190A-8(limit 8, no mk108 gunpod)
Fw-190A-9(limit 6)
Ta-152H-1(at Airbase C)
Fw-190F-8(at Airbase C)
Me-262A-1a(at Airbase C, Limit 8)
Fw-190A-4
Fw-190A-6(limit 6)
Bf-109G-6_Late(limit 4)

The U.S. have to bomb the industry in the city of Falaise(Map: Black A) and destroy 25% of the objects there, depending on the planes, this should take about 1-2 attack runs.
There is also a FlaK Base(Map: Black B), It is not an objective, but the brief locates it and says it would make it much easier for the heavy bombers if it destroyed by attack aircraft first.

The Germans have to shoot down at least 80 enemy aircraft in order to win.

The time limit 2 hours and 10 minutes(130 minutes)

German FlaK base:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4718/germanflakbasepi1.th.png (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=germanflakbasepi1.png)
Industry(white line is objective area):
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6412/industrylw3.th.png (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=industrylw3.png)

Im sort of hoping people will use the <planes command, with all the limited planes.

Im sending the map atm, hope you like it :rolleyes: ,

Eagle1

Happy
26-02-2008, 22:55
Well we use to fly bombers a lot. (long story there..)

Looks nice that map. First off I would like to say that anyone that takes time to design and make a map for others to use deserves a big thank you for it's not easy with IL2, and pretty time consuming at that.

Looking at it, from a closed cockpit perspective..

I think you have a lot of planes that people can choose from.

From a bomber pilots view, I wouldn't want to encounter to many off them high powered fighters which are bristling with huge cannons, those things can take out a B25 from far away with one hit. Safely spraying well out of range of gunners range.

Which I can understand since Il2 gunners are superhumans if you fly in a straight line towards a bomber. Same class as with the AA, never fly straight towards one with keeping it in your gunsight. they will get you pretty soon.

Anyway the more planes you put on a map the less people fly since some planes are just like magnets to people. Others will see no action at all. maybe your limiting might be an answer to that. Although I'm curious about the jets though.. if I where a P51 Driver I want to circle a blue base in the hope of nailing one of those ;)

Anyway, it's always a difficult issue, for bombers need time to form up, organise and get to target.. Fighters don't have these things and get restless if they don't see any action for 30 min. (there are exceptions)

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/happywaterborne/lookingfortheenemy.jpg


What AA did you use in enemy territory? This is always difficult finding that balance with black puffs everywhere yet without the 100% hit rate some of those gunners can get.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/happywaterborne/victimofflak.jpg

Best thing is getting it tested online and get feedback from all the pilots.

Every new map is welcome I would say, I'm sure people would want to help you test your creation.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/happywaterborne/BMpractise16092007.jpg

in the beginning:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/happywaterborne/MegaMissionPOSTER.jpg

Zorin
26-02-2008, 23:01
I can only second what Happy said about the efforts it takes and all the time spent on making a map, which are highly appreciated by our community. :)

If you want a specific feedback from me, yes I ask you just to prevent possible trouble, please say so.

NS-IceFire
26-02-2008, 23:58
Well I must say that you've spent truckloads of time on that...certainly looks that way. I think its fantastic...but it has some issues I can see right off the bat. I don't think that its suitable for UK-2...maybe UK-3 but I'm not sure about that either. What it looks like it'd be great for is one of the events that gets run now and again where things are more organized and people are willing to invest some time.

The pros are of course that the map is massively detailed and lots of attention to detail is there. The cons are that the flight times involved will definitely cause 20-40 minute kinds of flights (depending on the role) which are not ideal for a closer in server like UK-2. Also with the object detail and density...plus the already high requirements of the Normandy map...you're asking for lag and performance issues. Also with the restrictive planesets the average player who is not very savvy will join...and get kicked very easily. If they aren't kicked they will leave because of the longer flight times.

Eagle 1...I hope your map can be used somewhere because it certainly looks great. Doesn't seem ideal as a dogfight map in the strictest sense but it'd be definitely great for a large special event...the kind that draws a large number of really enthusiastic people together because the detail and immersion of the scenario is just so high. Thats just my personal opinion and I don't set any sort of policy...just my thoughts.

Looks great! Hope it can be enjoyed fully!

Eagle1_Division
27-02-2008, 02:09
I made the map a long time ago, then just recently decided I could dust it off, polish it a bit, and make it for a ukd server, so the workload was split in half, making it a bit easier to make :-).

I think the 262's are very overrestimated, from my experience, their jet engines that make them so popular make great matchwood for .50 cal fire :). But I have always been annoyed by large gunpods on fighters, mabye the admins might consider tightening the limits on some of those?

Anyhow, ever flown the Tiriptz map? There is an island extremely far away from the tiriptz, with some very long flight times, yet the ukd.2 crowd seems to enjoy the map, I think you would be surprised, not to be contentous.
Also, I guess I'll PM Doc about the map to look at it for ukd.3, though the unflyables may need to be removed... it would be a bit of taunt to leave them in :p.

As for german AA, the blue dots on the map are the Flak, with the large battery mentioned, and theres also a good number of Whirblewind AAA tanks, they have four FlaK cannons that work a lot like the 20mm FlaK or a machinegun. Now that I think back, I tested the FlaK with a B-17... This won't be good... :p Hopefully I didn't make it too bad, it'd shoot you down 1/4 flights, alone, in b17... looked preatty nice though, and changing course or alt really throws them off... I also added a large amount of AA/AAA at the U.S./U.K. base and a good number of ships out at sea... adds a bit of safety when you get back to your side of the map :).

NS-IceFire
27-02-2008, 04:45
I setup the Tirpitz scenario :)

The flight times are easily double if you fly from Falaise to the British airbase. Tirpitz is quite long already and longer than I had originally envisioned but Firelok and I collaborated and thats what we ended up with.

Here's what you can do. Take the average fighter like a P-51 or a Spitfire and place two waypoints on the map from one location to another. Set the altitude to 3000m and the speed to 380kph. That should give a rough estimation of how long it takes to fly from one spot to another. Assume the maximum and see how long it will take. Most of the scenarios are 4-5 minutes at the most...some are indeed longer but almost none of them have flight times over 10 minutes.

I'd also worry about the flak. Any idea how many pieces you have in total? I used to remember back a few years ago counting the total number of flak allowed for one side on one hand. Anything more would cause severe lag. Fortunately the game and the servers keep getting better...but that does look like allot of flak. I'd definitely put that much in a single player campaign but not online. Okinawa had that problem and that was probably a total of 25-30 pieces of light, medium, and heavy flak. The heavy flak can incur the greatest hit as the shells are fully calculated from start to end (arc up and back down to the ground) while the light and medium flak either are fused and don't arc.

Issues to consider from past experience on this server and others.

You should seriously consider turning this into a single player scenario as the kind of map detail you have there over the whole map is the sort of effort I'd put into setting up a scenario for a campaign. Its great...not trying to downplay it...but multiplayer is its own challenge.

Eagle1_Division
27-02-2008, 21:40
Look at the map(at my first post), about 2/3 of that is '88, the rest is mobile flaK(whirblewind), in Cean though thats 95% barrage baloons.
Just out of curiosity, do admins ever dust off maps a little? I already sent it but now I really dont want so many fighters with such large cannons nor probolly so much '88 flaK.

EDIT: Looking at it, mathmatically it should take about 30-45 mins, travelling at an average of 270-290 km/h, going about 140 km, assuming each grid box is 10x10 km.

Though it does look like it would make a good event map.

Algorex
27-02-2008, 22:03
I don't think the servers or our own machines would handle that amount of objects on just a large map in online game.

Try to concentrate the map to it's essence, for instance look at dortmund, it has all the essential bits of strategic bombing, everybody has an airstart to increase the fighting altitudes without extending the flight distances, the planeset is pretty tight with the principal players present.

To get a good image what a normal Ukded map looks like and how it's made check out firelok's excellent tutorial (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=13545)

NS-IceFire
27-02-2008, 22:10
Look at the map(at my first post), about 2/3 of that is '88, the rest is mobile flaK(whirblewind), in Cean though thats 95% barrage baloons.
88mm in numbers will cause significant lag...they arc...from firing point to maximum altitude. Some burst...but others come back down to the ground. Thats allot of calculations and it has to be transmitted. But the 88s aren't bad in small numbers...the Whirblewind is a killer for net traffic due to the high fire rate (much higher than most). A few of these guys going at the same time can really stop things...its gotten allot better but its still not perfect. I think I've limited myself to a maxium of two on any given multiplayer map.

The best ones to use as the Bofors 40mm, German and Japanese 20mm and 37mm, Russian 25mm, with small numbers of the 75mm or 88mm flak batteries. Despite the M16 Halftrack AAA appearance its lag hit is quite low as the fire rate is slower than the Whirblewind.

Firelok
28-02-2008, 18:35
OK, I had a look at this Falaise map yesterday and there are a number of issues that currently would prevent me from accepting it for testing on UK2.

Most importantly is the sheer scale of flight distances involved, a ~140km round trip is untenable, even half this flight distance is quite big for UK2. Most targets for UK2 maps are about two and a half grids away from their nearest airbase(slightly more for airstarts)

The Falaise target is going to cause a lot of lag from the sheer density of objects (as well as the city itself.) less targets and a higher percentage to destroy would work.

There is frankly a staggering amount of Flak objects on this map, maybe 20 times more than is neccessary. The final number of flak objects for an online map has to be a very delicate balance between threat levels and the lagginess this causes online. It's worth remembering that Flak always seems to be more accurate and deadly in online play than offline.

The planeset needs to be much more focused on the era the map is set too, No 109 E4s,F4s,G2s or FW 190 A4s should be here, other planes are far too limited. Limits of 4 or 6 just don't work well. Too often are planes crashed on take-off etc and this is often a cause of players getting angry, we have tended over the last two years (since we began with ServerCommander) to place less plane limits or restrict it to one type (the Me262 here for example.)
The specifics of historical context in terms of SpitVIIIs being present and B17Fs/B24s etc etc I'll leave for others to discuss.

Personally I do concur with the sentiments expressed above, about respecting anyone who's is prepared to make maps and put them up for inclusion. But I've got to decide in the end what will work and what needs altering to work.

This is a grand idea for a map but it needs tightening up into a much smaller, more streamlined and more focused submission before inclusion is possible.

Eagle1_Division
28-02-2008, 21:34
O.K., I understand it needs to be dusted off and polished quiet a bit, but Im not quiet sure, so I just need to fix it up a bit however and re-submit it?
As for the flight times, the very popular tiriptz map(at least in my, a bomber pilot's mind, but ive seen some awsome formations on this map.) has a flight time from island to ship which is actually larger than the flight time on this map (looked it up, its the same N/S, but another 80 km round trip E/W).

As for the aircraft, I didn't want a massive amount of people in planes with massive guns, no bomber formation would last very long under a large amount of '110s or '190s with full gunpods. All I really needed is to find a way to actually get the "true" game name of the weapons, I'm preatty sure I got that pinned (with making a quicksave on quick mission builder, and opening it with notepad), though.

I could change the target to cean, but that would destroy one of the main aspects that I wished to add: a flight that would likely result in a large formation with escorts. Though I could shorten it a bit, but not so much, by creating an artificial island to the west(just about 7-15 km west of the ship's positions), and having the target be St. Lo, but im not sure if the city even has an industrial section(though this an interesting idea, keep the large formation, but spare some time, though this would require switching up the airbases quiet a bit).

Finally, FlaK noted, I'll try to limit it down to the battery, which I have to add a second-not-imperitave target aspect, as well as putting the p47s and p38s to use.

Algorex
28-02-2008, 21:48
We are talking about the this mission right? Tirpitz2 on ukded2:
http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/tirpitz01.jpg

It's quite alot smaller than your map in it's current form.

Zorin
28-02-2008, 21:57
To clear things up a bit, we are able to:

- lock every type of weapon on a specified plane type which is not part of the standard armament (gun pods etc.)
- we can set up limited spawn areas, therefor the number of planes of the type located there can be reduce to 1 if necessary


Generally, the type of mission you are after is not realistic in the context of a dogfight mission, yet our DedicatedMission or special event nights can offer such large formation and escort missions.

And to say 1944 is very vague.

Take the two main Luftwaffe fighters for example, 1944 gives you a range from:

Bf109G2-K4 and Fw190A5-Fw190D9

You should really focus on a particular month and research the actual units present to get a clear picture of what planes were present in the theatre of Northern France.

NS-IceFire
28-02-2008, 23:39
http://colin.polariscreations.com/images/tirpitz2map.jpg

Is this the map you're talking about? There aren't any 80km long trips here. Roughly 20-40km at the most. And the 40km trip is quite a long one by UK-Dedicated2 standards to hit the Tirpitz. Most of the fighting takes place between the German airbase and the Royal Navy fleet so the average player is flying between 2 and 3 minutes to reach combat assuming a decent speed and assuming they fly straight for the fight.

Zorin
28-02-2008, 23:47
Now I know, he is referring to the old Tirpitz version with the island station that featured Pe8 and Mosquitos.

Eagle1_Division
29-02-2008, 01:51
The old version? Dont tell me they took that out :-/

Firelok
29-02-2008, 02:53
Veta very usefully compiled a set of links to our mapmaking info here and links to other sites...
IL2Maps and Mapmaking (http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=13303)
In that list is...
Server Commander: Weapon Names List
This has almost all of the weapon codes to restrict gunpods,bombs etc for IL2 aircraft using Server Commander for disabling the more destructive big cannon options if required.

NS-IceFire
29-02-2008, 03:08
The old version? Dont tell me they took that out :-/
Long gone man.

That one base at the back there with the Pe-8 and whatever else we put there was not for general use. The mission objectives could be accomplished from the carriers where flight times were significantly lower. The back base waaaaay back there with the huge flight times was added later to give some sort of option for someone who wanted a big bomber. The Pe-8 was selected so that we could lob the 5000KG bomb at the Tirpitz. Potentially map winning bombload...the trick was flying the distance and avoiding the enemy fighters so the payout for that long trip was huge. VERY specific set of circumstances there...but only a few people would use that base ever. Sometimes it was never used. The average pilot still flies only a few minutes.

Eagle1_Division
01-03-2008, 03:23
I remember a quiet large formation from there..., anyhow, what was really impressive is that the tiriptz would take the 5000kg, and live. O.o

So what do I do about all the fixes? just fix it up and send it back in?(still haven't checked to see if St. Lo has industry :p)

Zorin
01-03-2008, 04:05
I remember a quiet large formation from there..., anyhow, what was really impressive is that the tiriptz would take the 5000kg, and live. O.o

So what do I do about all the fixes? just fix it up and send it back in?(still haven't checked to see if St. Lo has industry :p)

Research the events for a period of 1944 and FOCUS on a specific mission and a tight planeset.

NS-IceFire
01-03-2008, 05:58
If the target is Caen then remove everything except the British base, the German base, and the Caen targets. That focuses the battle. Tighten up the planeset with something more representative of the time.

If I can suggest a roughly April 1944 planeset

Allied
P-51B/C
P-47D-27
P-38J/L
B-17G
B-24J

If a Spitfire is to be included then the Spitfire IXc is the most appropriate for this time. Or if you want to limit the Spitfires popularity without imposing a limit the Spitfire Vb or LF.Vb was still quite common in early 1944 equipping more than half of Spitfire squadrons prior to D-Day.

Luftwaffe
FW190A-6
FW190A-8
Bf-109G-6 Late
Bf-110G-2

Add the 109G-2 if you want some added dogfighting potential for Blue.

If this goes the way I think it will...you'll see some bomber formations head south to Caen with quite a few battles along the way.

May also be prudent to place some air starts around the Red base for bombers only so they have an initial altitude advantage.

Firelok
01-03-2008, 15:30
St-Lo is still too far out from the Brit island base, what might work is Bayeux as a target using Caen as the German take-off base. That way Blues aren't defending on their doorstep.

Bayeux ~Simple straight forward, still a long-ish flight as the crow flies but leaves plenty of option for larger formations to gain height out over the sea using an indirect route.

Ice's suggested set looks good, especially with SpitVbLF and G2 included.