Moscow

[JtD]

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/br/Moscow.jpg

Overview:
Moscow, December 1941: Operation Barbarossa, the German attack against the Soviet Union that started in June 1941, has reached the gates of Moscow. Having advanced 1500km in the first 4 months of the operation, all that remains between the German forces and Moscow are a mere 50 km. However, the onset of the winter and fresh Soviet reinforcements from the far East have slowed down the Wehrmachts advance. The battle of Moscow is in it's decisive phase.

Mission Objectives:
The Allies attack a German forces in K/L-5/6 (35 tanks, 25 cars).
The Axis attack Allied forces in L-4 (20 artillery, 25 tanks, 30 cars).

Planeset:
Blue:
- Bf-109E-7
- Bf-109F-2
- Bf-109F-4 (2 airborne, 4 total)
- He-111H-2
- He-111H-6 (no SC 2000)
- Ju-87B-2
- IAR81a
Red:
- I-16type18
- I-16type24
- Il-2_1940_Early
- Il-2_1940_Late
- Il-2_1941_Early
- LaGG-3series4
- MiG-3ud
- MiG-3-2xUB (1 airborne, 2 total)
- MiG-3-2xShVAK (1 airborne, 2 total)
- Pe-2series1
- Pe-3bis
- Yak-1
- Yak-7B
- HurricaneMkIIb

Please rate the topic to rate the map. Comments welcome.

[WillEyedOney]

Would be an ok map if the targets were not on each others doorstep or split apart. Ju88s can finish it in a couple of runs though, those 2000kg bombs are just too much.

[FlyingFinn]

+1 what Will said.

[JtD]

I'll be working on this one.

[NS-IceFire]

Glad to see this one back...many memories from this one from both the good and bad side. But I think its well worth resurrecting.

[JtD]

A revised version of this map is up.

Targets have been changed, and the planeset has been altered slightly. It should be more fun for the ground pounder.

[WillEyedOney]

This is still a way too one sided map in favour of the F2/F4 brigade. At least with the Mig3U it was closer to being even.

[NS-IceFire]

This is still a way too one sided map in favour of the F2/F4 brigade. At least with the Mig3U it was closer to being even.

What are the I-16 Type 24 and Yak-7B folks doing? Should be a fairly close match with a couple of good pilots on either side.

[WillEyedOney]

They are usually waiting for the 109s to drop out of the sky from 5000m and blow them to hell. In my experience it is not a fair match at all. Two or three organised 109s can wipe the floor with the poorly performing Russian coffins.

[Sonko]

Hmm and the Il2's? If they were going for the target the blue fighter jocks MUST come down to secure blue troops. Which would be an ideal situation to shoot them down - given that the 109's don't boom and zoom only. But then again the blues won't hit so much because of the red and blue arrows which tell me *break away* so the 109 has only two options: slow down to score a kill or pull up and try again.
Theoretically.

[WillEyedOney]

I suggest playing the map a few times, in the evening, then seeing how you feel about it. :)

[Sonko]

deal!

[WillEyedOney]

As red! :)

[Sonko]

of course, :D

[NS-IceFire]

Just remove the F-4...thats the way the old map was. The F-2 is for the precision artist 109 but its never going to dominate with that 15mm heavy machine gun nose armament while the E-7 will be for the people that appreciate the firepower. Either way it brings down the Luftwaffe fighters to the Red fighters level. The F-4 is a higher performing 109 than the F-2.

I distinctly remember some fantastic dogfights between me in a Yak-1 and a bunch of F-2s...I won :)

Mind you that was earlier versions before all of the performance values were tweaked.

[JtD]

Instead of the MiG-3U I'd suggest a La-5 to counter the F-4. Just like the MiG-3U it's a plane that wasn't around for another year, but at least it existed in numbers and doesn't completely outperform the F-4 on all altitudes. So 109 veterans will stand a chance to overcome a noob in a red plane.

[SMURFY1967]

I fly the I-16 type18 in this map, i damage loads of planes with it, sometimes I even shoot one down, after i`ve hit it with 100 rounds first. Surely if the F4 is unlimited there is no need to place a 2? plane limit on the Mig 3`s with the 2 x 20 and 2 x 12.7, after all the Mig 3 isn`t a new players type of aircraft, it falls to bits at 600kmh ish and burns within a couple of hits.

La5 not for me, don`t particularly like it, but say a Mig3 AM38 which has poor guns but good lower alt performance as a compromise (the important word here) and i`d be happy. Early war Russia is a difficult job to balance, lets face it they got battered by the Luftwaffe for 2 years unfortunately in the gaming world that doesn`t make for great fun so we have to accept the odd bending of the historically correct rule. Good job on moving the targets btw.

[JtD]

I have a neat idea that does not involve changes in the plane set, which I think is very nice as it is. Why not make the take off for the F-4 a bit more time consuming and difficult by forcing it to taxi to the runway by putting obstacles everywhere else? I've seen that on other servers, looks good, and it would have the effect of having less F-4's in the air and the pilots having a minute of time to consider if all the effort is really worth it...

[Zorin]

I have a neat idea that does not involve changes in the plane set, which I think is very nice as it is. Why not make the take off for the F-4 a bit more time consuming and difficult by forcing it to taxi to the runway by putting obstacles everywhere else? I've seen that on other servers, looks good, and it would have the effect of having less F-4's in the air and the pilots having a minute of time to consider if all the effort is really worth it...

A sophisticated idea, but that essentially rules it out as being feasable right away.

All I can picture with the usual suspects is a chaotic airfield full of smoke plumes and a chatbar littered with swear words.

[charos_thanatos]

08.03.2010 - We were on that map - Skinny,SorryForThat,L*** and some others - I had a Bf-109 Friedrich-4 and I really am no Bf-pilot, but I had some runs on it and destoyed the MigS,Yaks and Hurri easily - so I hope that an early spit for russia will be placed on that map to even sides:)...Charos

[NS-IceFire]

With the Bf109F-2 now getting a 20mm cannon option in 4.10 I think the problem with this planeset can be solved by that.

[WillEyedOney]

Early Spit is no match for the anti-gravity F series 109s really.

[FlyingFinn]

Fairydust anti-G Merlington Mk. Vs are pretty decant match for ze Friedrich, ja?

[NS-IceFire]

There is no fairy dust... just planes with different performance profiles including two very well regarded aircraft (109 and Spitfire). The Spitfire doesn't really belong in the planeset and the F-4 is a bit of an overmatch versus the Russian aircraft... historically it was definitely more than a match and the Luftwaffe had far higher ratios of kills to losses.

Again... the F-2 is more than enough. Especially if it has a 20mm option which it will soon. Plus that 15mm isn't as useless as everyone thinks... I did really well with it in the past.

[Algorex]

__ Spitfires ________ ____ Moscow __ december 1941. Someone please fill in the blanks.

[Zorin]

__ Spitfires ________ ____ Moscow __ december 1941. Someone please fill in the blanks.


No Spitfires operated over Moscow in december 1941.

[WillEyedOney]

Plus that 15mm isn't as useless as everyone thinks... I did really well with it in the past.

It works about as well as the Hispano. Players used to smashing everything in a single blast with the 151\20 or the MK108 just have to learn to aim a bit, that's all :)

[JtD]

The MG151 (15mm) works about as well as the Hispano?

Let me see:
1) The Hispano is out of ammo. Then, yes, about as well.
2) The Hispano is not out of ammo. Then, no, not by a huge margin.

4.10 will bring a lot of changes, so I don't think maps like this one will have the issues they currently have. Even if it were the maps that had the issues.

Of course that's only true if people bother making new maps.

[WillEyedOney]

Just going by my experiences in the game, I've never noticed anything remotely wonderful about the Hispano.

[JtD]

Well, if you don't hit, the Hispano is as good as a MG151, out of ammo or not. So here I was wrong. But then, maybe you should take your own advice and "learn to aim a bit". You'll see the difference.

[FlyingFinn]

MG151/15 doesn't have HE belting. It's a heavy MG, not a cannon. It takes numerous repeated hits or a few well-placed shots while going fast to get the same overall result as 1 or 2 of Hispano, or MG151/20 rounds. Both the Hispano and the MG151/20 have HE rounds in the belting making downing bandits a breeze.

The only advantage the MG151/15 holds over the two cannons are the high muzzle velocity, higher round capacity and the fact that it delivers AP rounds down range faster. This leads to numerous bandits with severed control cables or dead pilots.

In the hands of the average pilot though you will see little success with the MG151/15. You'll rarely see a constant stream on hits in the same area to get the wanted effects from the AP belting on the MG151/15. This coupled with the fact that the 109 has poor high-speed control and you need some speed to get that damage up on the MG151/15 leads to poor results.

[WillEyedOney]

Well, if you don't hit, the Hispano is as good as a MG151, out of ammo or not. So here I was wrong. But then, maybe you should take your own advice and "learn to aim a bit". You'll see the difference.

Sweet as usual. :)

[NS-IceFire]

The Hispano and MG151/20 are tied in my mind for most destructive 20mm cannons and probably the most effective anti-fighter weapon. The MG151/15 is not nearly as effective but it does the job... Once again having the MG151/20 added to the F-2 solves quite a few balance issues. Can't wait for that to happen.

[LeVola]

I thought early F1/2 got MG FF? Could be wrong.
BtW Ice check PM.

[NS-IceFire]

I thought early F1/2 got MG FF? Could be wrong.
BtW Ice check PM.

Yep the early F models had a MG-FF firing through the prop hub.

I don't see any new PM's... except if you talk about the one where you ask me about the BF signs and noseart which you've now asked me about 3 times :D And no I didn't make them :)