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Coenraad
09-11-2011, 15:33
Started on a map. My first one. It's the Italy online map. With the battle being fought on the island. It is no historical mission, but a "plausible" one. 1943 and it's RAF versus Italy (with the 110 and Hs129 as German support).

Targets for both will be vehicles and ships. Mission building is still in it's early stages and will just slowly build it out. And result hopefully in something worthy for the UK1 or 2 server :)

JtD
09-11-2011, 17:41
Good luck with the scenario and have fun! If you have questions, just ask, there are plenty of experienced map makers around who can be of help.

Coenraad
11-11-2011, 16:32
Thank you buddy.

NS-IceFire
13-11-2011, 06:01
Good luck! As it's your first outing... (even when it's not) I would suggest filling us in on some of the details. Maybe post a couple of screen shots of the map layout or the targets. Helps give us an idea of how things are going. Might be able to help better that way. Have a look at many other threads for examples.

I like the sounds of the scenario. We try not to get too hung up on history. If you can find something that fits or just keep it generic enough that it may match several battles fought around the time that should make it fit well enough. I like the planeset idea in general. A couple of German twins and then all Reggia Aeronautical versus RAF. Sounds good!

Coenraad
13-11-2011, 08:01
Thanks. I will take some screenies later today and post them. Allong with some info.

Coenraad
13-11-2011, 10:46
Allright here it is:
Allies:
13xShip
6x AAA at the airfield.

Axis:
6xShip
8xTanks
16x Supply vehicles (2 columns)
6xAAA at the airfield.

It is early morning 05:00AM so it is a little foggy and the sky has a nice red glow to it.
The Prince of Whales and the DD besides it will sail around a bit, as to patrol. this will also make the sea units look more active.

Available plane sets:
Red: Hurricane, Mosquito and Spitfires.
Blue: MC202, MC205 (both 2 and 3), HS129 and the BF110.
All are set to unlimited.

Airfield are set up with limited plane options and allow airstart at 1000m if the base is full. Both blue and red base have a max of 32 players.
The mission is made in a stock 4.10.1 game.
This is my first ever attempt so there is probably some tweaking to do.

And here some screenies:
The map.
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline002.jpg

The blue supplie column:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline004.jpg

The blue tanks:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline003.jpg

The red supply fleet:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline005.jpg

The red BB:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline001.jpg

Fusek
13-11-2011, 11:58
looking good so far! If you have any questions just ask :)

Zorin
13-11-2011, 13:01
Ok, lets cut straight to it. This is not going to work.

1. The targets are all located behind the defenders' airfields and way too close to these as well. All you will get is base camping by fighters and unlimited frustration for the ground attackers.
2. Distances are too long 5 1/2 grids to target for Blue and 3 1/2 for Red will only allow for very few runs to target and 100% certainty for dying along the way.
3. The time of day, with its pinkish hue, will make it really hard for the ground attackers to make out the targets on the ground.

What you should do is switch positions of both teams,to represent the capture of Sardinia by the US troops and the escape of the German troops towards Corsica in the north. Additionally, you should add an airstarts off shore for the German/Itallian team and spread out the targets to limit the risks of base camping due to the short distance betwen the airfields on Sardinia.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/th_edit_italy.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/?action=view&current=edit_italy.jpg)

Coenraad
13-11-2011, 13:52
Thanks for the pointers there. I'll give it a re-arangement. I will try to make an airstrip where bombers can take off from as i try to keep airstarts to a minimum.
I did overlook the 5+ grid travel time, wich is indeed way to much. That is like 15 mins one way.

The time of day though i love, and will try to keep it as it is. I see more bad visibility missions on BF1 and i like them allot. That it makes ground targets harder to spot is no problem, as attacking ground targets is not that hard in the first place.

Thank you for the constructive feedback, it is much apreciated.
I will post the new setup when it is done.

NS-IceFire
13-11-2011, 15:52
Zorin is right about the layout. It'll be a lot of base camping.

What I tend to do these days is set up a kind of diamond shape that aligns the targets and home bases. If you draw a line straight between the two bases you'll get a convergence zone somewhere in the middle where the average typical dogfight server pilot takes off and flies to. Basically they see their base, where the enemy base is and fly straight at it. You want to tend to avoid keeping targets in this line. So targets are offset to the sides of that line forming a kind of square or diamond pattern. It's never exactly the same but that is the general rule.

Attacking ground targets is only easy for a few people. Don't make it too hard or people will just fly fighters. That said the time of day is a fun one and on it's own it shouldn't be a problem. Make sure that something in the target zone stands out. A large battleship like you have there is one example. Another would be a concrete bunker or a cluster of buildings. It doesn't take much but it helps show where targets are even in haze or fog.

To get the distances right I tend to drop a couple of A-20C waypoints down (default 500 meters and 250 kph).

For planeset... sounds like a good start. It'll be important to get into the specifics. I do question having a Hs129 as it currently has nothing to do.

Coenraad
13-11-2011, 18:05
Allright, i made a new one. And basicaly started from scratch again.

Allied:
8x tanks
16x supply vehicles
9xship

Axis:
8xtanks + 2AAA posts
10xships
16x suply vehicles.

The vehicles are on the roads, so should be easy enough to spot. The ships are quite large and should be no problem to spot either. And the German tanks are at a base, standing well visible.
The northern blue base has the Bf110 and the HS129, not sure if they are too far north. I made an arfield there using 2x testrunway 1's

What is a good average flight time to the target is using the 250kph rule?

Tell me what you think, all constructive criticism is much welcome.

The map:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline001-1.jpg

German tanks:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline002-1.jpg

Ships:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline003-1.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline004-1.jpg

Coenraad
13-11-2011, 20:22
Made a little change, removed the northern base. As the distance was a little too far. Moved the red ships down a bit.

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline005-1.jpg

NS-IceFire
14-11-2011, 06:25
What is a good average flight time to the target is using the 250kph rule?
Ooops I left that part out :)

About 4-5 minutes using that rule. So 4-5 to target and then about that back. It tends to be enough without being too far. Depends on the planeset too... faster aircraft I'll push 5-6 while slow aircraft (biplanes for example) I bring it down to 3-4 minutes.

I think the layout above is very promising. Should definitely start thinking about the plane set in a little more depth. Remember variety is a good thing to a point but so is balance. This shouldn't be too hard to balance but selecting the right models will be key.

Coenraad
14-11-2011, 15:36
Here are the plane sets:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline008.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/Italyonline009.jpg


I am not a good dogfightermyself so i will need you guys to say if the Spit Mk.IX is a fair match to the MC205 III.
Bombs for both sides are limited to 250kg/500lbs.

What do you think?

NS-IceFire
15-11-2011, 01:45
Not a bad start on the planes... I think it could use some tweaking.

RED
- Hurricane IIB <-- Good choice, I would think about adding the IIc for the fun factor. Also depending on the type of tanks involved the IIc can successfully destroy lighter tanks with direct hits on the rear armor. Worth testing.
- Mosquito FB.VI
- Tomahawk IIb <-- To the best of my knowledge all Tomahawks would have been out of service at this point and replaced by Kittyhawks on the frontline. So a P-40E or M would be more suitable especially given the opposition.
- Spitfire F.Vb CW <-- There weren't really any Clipped Wing Spitfires in the MTO as they were not facing FW190s. I would replace with Spitfire Vc(2) and not the early one as it has more performance that would not match but be more capable against the opposition
- Spitfire Vc(4) early <-- A rare bird that really only flew from Malta... still I think it could be included for the fun factor and it is not nearly as fast as the opposition
- Spitfire F.IX (1943)
- Spitfire LF.IX (1943) <-- Spitfire LF.IX's, unlike their Mark V counterparts, are actually fully superior at most altitudes as the LF supercharging gear made the Spitfire IX a very high performer up to only a slightly lower altitude than the F.IX while the F.IX peaks at higher altitudes but has less usable power down low. So my point here is that the LF.IX may be overkill.

BLUE
- Bf110G-2
- Hs129B-2
- MC.202 XII
- MC.205 I
- MC.205 III

For blue I think a couple of planes should be considered for addition as the set is a little on the light side for diversity and particularly in ship killing options.

- Ju88A-17 <-- dedicated torpedo variant that saw lots of service in the MTO and would be almost necessary for effective ship killing
- SM.79 <-- obsolete but still used well into 1943, this would be another option for torpedo bombing although more vulnerable to attacking fighters

My prediction is that it will take a bit of time for this set to settle down. Putting the MC.205 into inexperienced players hands will bring down the K/D ratio for the plane but most people will fly the Series III with the cannons once they discover what it is like to fly. Some will still pick other types so it's not bad that they are included and the Series III is almost a requirement versus cannon armed Spitfires. On the Red team half will go Spitfire while half would go with a P-40M if available (which is great to fly even if it isn't as high on performance as the MC.205 or even 202).

Thinking about the targets you may want to think about adding a few lighter targets near the tanks. Tanks can be a challenge to kill although 6-10 tanks aren't hard to kill in a single sortie with a well flown Hs129 armed with a MK101 or MK103 30mm cannon. Some softer targets (cars, supply trucks, etc.) usually makes life a little more interesting and potentially rewarding during attack runs on other harder to kill targets.

Coenraad
15-11-2011, 15:33
Changed:
*P40C to P40E
*Spit Mk.V to Spit trop(2)
*Spit MK.IX LF CW removed
*Hurricane Mk.IIc added.
*Small replacement of some ships in the allied convoy to give better AAA coverage
*Added Ju88 with bombs

Besides the 8 tanks there are 16 non armored vehicles that will be moving towards the tanks.
For ship killing i was thinking to use bombs, and put a brief description in the briefing on how to skip bomb. A practice that is allot easier (atleast i like to believe so) then torpedo dropping.
Both the Bf110 and the Mosquito will carry up to 2x 500lbs bombs, wich are enough to kill a cargo ship.

I am trying for this mission to put in some things/planes that aren't often used. Like skip bombing, the MC planes and targets that have a relative hard AAA defence, wich makes the AAA the first priority.
I think i am now at a stage where i would like to test the map with a few people. So we can get a hands on experience on how the map plays, and take it from there.

I will ofcourse consider torpedo use if skip bombing proves too hard, becourse if no one likes to play the map, i will simply have failed my goal all together.

Coenraad
16-11-2011, 13:18
Latest improvements after a short testing session on BF2 (Thanks so much guys!) :
*Changed RoF for German AAA ships to 100.
*Removed two German AAA ships.
*Added one German patrol boat.
*Changed RoF for US destroyers to 50.
*P40E now has a default loadout to choose from.
*Added runway campfires to both runways.
*Fixed static camera positions.
*Changed day of time to fixed 18:30
*Cloud cover lowered to 1000 meters.
*Added 4x250lbs bombs configuration for the Mosquito.
*Removed Mk108 + 3,7mm cannon configuration for the BF110.
*Moved the German ships closer to the allied base to reduce flight time.
*Updated the briefing.

NS-IceFire
16-11-2011, 13:42
Sounds like a good start! I think you have the right attitude about doing this so keep it up!

I look forward to playing it!

IIJG3_Karaya 1
16-11-2011, 16:33
agreeeeeddd !! ...however the Hurricane wouldnt stand a change against the MC205 (or even 202) it will be fun to fly it :D

NS-IceFire
16-11-2011, 22:17
agreeeeeddd !! ...however the Hurricane wouldnt stand a change against the MC205 (or even 202) it will be fun to fly it :D

True... AND the Hurricane saw a lot of use as a attack aircraft after its use as a fighter/interceptor was long over. Hurricanes served in frontline use from the very first day of the war to the very last day in some remote areas.

Coenraad
17-11-2011, 15:37
Thank you very much. I'll ask if we can maybe test the map again this weekend on Bf2. I think it's very close to being finished. But you never know what pops up :)

Hoodoodat
18-11-2011, 04:09
Track some of us down as you did before. You know we'll be glad to help. :)

Nice work so far.;)

Coenraad
20-11-2011, 11:23
After another fun testing session the next changes where made.

Italy Online V1.03:
*Added payloads for the Spitfire Mk IX. :2x 250lb or 1x500lb bomb.
*Changed ship routes for the Red ships.
*Increased RoF for the Red ships.
*Added 2 AAA's to the red column goal area.
*Added 3 AAA vehilcles to the Red vehicle columns.
*Added 3 AAA's to the Blue armor base.
*Added 3 AAA vehicles to the Blue columns.
*Increased RoF for the German M-boat from 80 to 20.
*Increased German M-boat skill from rookie to average.
*Added AAA on some mountain tops.

See you guys online :)

Coenraad
22-11-2011, 14:57
Here is the next update, after some more testing.
Changes:
*Added planes on the red side: Seafire Mk.III, Typhoon Mk.Ib, Hurricane Mk.IId, Hurribomber, Beaufighter Mk.X, Spitfire Mk.V trop (fb).
*Removed red planes: Spitfire Mk.V trop (2), Spitfire Mk.V trop (4), Spitfire Mk.IXe, Hurricane MkIIb.
*Added blue side planes: Bf-110 C4/B, Ju88 C6.
*Changed the name of the map.
*Added stationary planes at the red base.
*Added HMS Illustrious and two cargo ships to the red harbour for added historical value.
*Changed vehicle columns on both sides so there should be no more collisions.
*Removed the mobile AAA that bugged in HSFX Expert mode and replaced it with fixed AAA.
*Added AAA stations allong the road that is traveled by the columns to make up for the non working mobile AAA.
*Changed red destroyers to destroyer types with more AAA.
*Swapped the M-boat on the blue side for a coastal defence ship.
*Added AAA on some mountain tops for a more realistic setting.
*Moved the frontline on the west side further north.
*Blue tanks changed from PzIII to PzIV so they are a little harder to kill.
*Moved blue tanks further appart.
*Changed blue ship routes.

Things to come:
Small amount of AI planes on both sides for more immersion and thing to shoot when population is low.
Make a non HSFX version so it might maybe someday be ran on BF1 (if there is a wish for that)
A few more moving ships.

All in all allot of changes since last time, but slowly getting there. Now is mainly polishing and testing that is left.


I want to thank everyone for all the help they are giving me. Being a new player on BFs and getting so much friendly advice and support really means allot to me.
Thanks to everyone who is involved in my little project.

Edit:
Here are some screenies of the mission as it is now:

The map as it is now.
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia015.jpg

Blue plane set:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia016.jpg

Red plane set:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia018.jpg

Vehicles:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia023.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia022.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia021.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia020.jpg

The planes at the airbases:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia011.jpg

Bf110 being refueled and re-armed:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia010.jpg

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia009.jpg

Hurricanes allmost ready for takeoff:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia014.jpg

Beaufighters being prepared for battle:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia013.jpg

HMS Illustrious at port:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia012.jpg

One of the convoys:
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv323/dutch169th/IL-2%201946/InvasionofSardinia019.jpg

Coenraad
25-11-2011, 14:59
Latest changes:
*Added 3 AI bomber flights. (2 German and 1 Italian)
*Added 1 AI fighter flight. Me109 G2 Ace level.
*Removed Hurricane Mk.IIc
*Removed Seafire Mk.III
*Removed MC202
*Added Me109E7/N trop (Max 4)
*Added a limit of 4 for the Mk.IX

Now the fighter's should be a bit more equal.

IIJG3_Karaya 1
25-11-2011, 19:51
I LOVE YOU !!..

So what about making the UK1 version we talked about ?...

(id kiss you if you would leave the 110C4 in ;) )

Coenraad
26-11-2011, 08:36
Well, first it has to be a 100% sure that it will go on there ofcourse, unless it allready is :)
I then can make the 4.10.1 version for BF1, i plan to keep the 110 there as well as the Typhoon.
The Beaufighter i can replace with the stock one, as they do not differ much in performance.

Do AI planes work in BF1 or should they be removed ?

IIJG3_Karaya 1
26-11-2011, 10:26
They work as far as i know...

I dont think the typhoon is a stock plane...only the tempest right ?

Coenraad
26-11-2011, 12:45
I will check that.

Zorin
26-11-2011, 14:21
They work as far as i know...

I dont think the typhoon is a stock plane...only the tempest right ?

Doesn't matter as neither ever saw service in the Mediterranean theatre.

Firelok
26-11-2011, 14:23
No typhoon available for the stock game, if only.

NS-IceFire
26-11-2011, 15:14
Yep no Typhoons are in the stock game (I still cross my fingers for that one day) and neither Tempest nor Typhoon saw Mediterranean service. Only one Typhoon was ever deployed for testing in that theater and I believe it was determined that the Sabre engine was too temperamental at that point to operate there. Later a better filter was setup for the Typhoon and Tempest which enabled them to operate in Normandy.

IIJG3_Karaya 1
26-11-2011, 18:11
so what? strip half of the remaining planes (after all HSFX planes are gone) out of this great map because that particlar version wasnt there ?

However i didnt want to say that there should be tempests on that map...

Coenraad
26-11-2011, 20:07
Further changes:
*Changed all flak 30 into flak 38's. Still 20mm but atleast these can be destroyed ;)
*Swapped the three flak 38's into flak 37's. Now the AAA is allot less intense. *subject to change*
*Removed a large part of the static cams. Left only those that are usefull.
*Added a PzIII column allong side the existing column traveling south.

Coenraad

NS-IceFire
27-11-2011, 14:50
so what? strip half of the remaining planes (after all HSFX planes are gone) out of this great map because that particlar version wasnt there ?

However i didnt want to say that there should be tempests on that map...

It's just one plane man :)

If it works and it's really fun then I can't argue with that but there is that balance between fun and historical believability. It's up to the map author and everyone else to find that fine line. Sometimes its easier to find than others.

NS-IceFire
27-11-2011, 14:51
Coenraad: If this is Battle-fields2 only then we should really move that over there to prevent any confusion. If there is a Battle-fields1 edition later on then a separate thread with a summary could be created there with the alternate planeset (no HSFX aircraft) for that server. Any objections to move it to the "UK-2" forum?

I should also say that you're doing a bang up job working through this and iterating the map with various fixes as you find out what works and what doesn't. Key to great map building is not being afraid to go back and do some reinvention.

Coenraad
27-11-2011, 20:00
I am planning to work on a Bf1 version this week. I might add one HSFX plane on one or both sides. But this will be a non critical plane, so that non HSFX players don't have to feel left out.
Feel free to move this one to BF2, i will make a new one for BF1 when i have worked a bit with the stock map.
Btw can AI stay in the game for BF1? Or would that be to much of a FPS killer? (They stay on the map for about 45 mins if they don't get shot down before that hehe)

For those interested, the HSFX version is now on mission4today named "Invasion of Sardinia"

Edit:http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=999

Yours,
Coenraad

Zorin
27-11-2011, 20:23
I am planning to work on a Bf1 version this week. I might add one HSFX plane on one or both sides. But this will be a non critical plane, so that non HSFX players don't have to feel left out.
Feel free to move this one to BF2, i will make a new one for BF1 when i have worked a bit with the stock map.
Btw can AI stay in the game for BF1? Or would that be to much of a FPS killer? (They stay on the map for about 45 mins if they don't get shot down before that hehe)

For those interested, the HSFX version is now on mission4today named "Invasion of Sardinia"

Edit:http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=999

Yours,
Coenraad

This will only work if it is a stock plane made flyable, otherwise it will not work.

Coenraad
27-11-2011, 21:15
Ah yeah ofcourse. I allmost forgot that. No planes with a * behind them :)

NS-IceFire
28-11-2011, 00:24
Thread moved and renamed :)

For red team the Beaufighter Mark 21 could probably take the place of the Mark X and the Vc Tropical is available just with a different version in HSFX versus the stock game. I would suggest the Vc (2), 1942 rather than the Vc (4), early 1942 or Vc (2), early 1942 options.

Coenraad
28-11-2011, 15:28
Allright. Thank you mate.