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Commander Keen
12-01-2006, 16:12
I was just flying on this map again... and its still a joke, i cant remember who made it but he is really major bias germany!
First of i can live with the plane sets, they are ok. BUT... the ratio of how the map is made is really screwed up.

You want a carrier op, fine i like them, makes a challange to the everyday flying. But the the fact that you have removed the carriers guns because, arcording to some admin, it causes lag! Have you been to where the blue ship we have to destroy is located?
The carriers have the 4 destroyer, which makes up for nothing. at teh blue targets there are 7 or 8 times more flak then at the carriers... and if the carriers gun would cause lag then the blue flak sure as hell will to.

So the only conclusion i come to it that you need to keep and eye on your map makers because more and more of them are making bias blue maps, i once sumitted 2 maps... They were both denied, so dont come and say i didn't try and change it first myself.

norrismcwhirter
12-01-2006, 16:15
http://www.il2hq.com/Stats/index.php

Team Mission Victories
Blue 454
Red 593

Yes, I see your point - the blue bias on maps is clearly overwhelming.

Map makers...Change them all immediately!

Ta,
norris

Yellow 2
12-01-2006, 17:14
I think it would be as well to remember that no matter what we think of a map someone has put a lot of work into it. Constructive criticism should always be welcomed but insulting the people who have worked hard to produce the maps we fly is another thing entirely. :(

Veta
12-01-2006, 17:53
I was just flying on this map again... and its still a joke, i cant remember who made it but he is really major bias germany!
First of i can live with the plane sets, they are ok. BUT... the ratio of how the map is made is really screwed up.

So the only conclusion i come to it that you need to keep and eye on your map makers because more and more of them are making bias blue maps, i once sumitted 2 maps... They were both denied, so dont come and say i didn't try and change it first myself.I'll say just this. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion Commander Keen, and you're more than welcome to air it here, however every time you come here to complain you do it in a way which comes across as aggressive and borderline insulting. You aren't doing your argument any favours!

BTW you've been around the server and the forums for quite a while now...so surely we're doing something right? It just seems that you only show up when you're pissed off.

norrismcwhirter
12-01-2006, 18:50
Probably annoyed cos he was shot down from 1.8km away by a mk108 shell...again ;)

Ta,
norris

Commander Keen
12-01-2006, 19:57
I didn't know you had a map forum. And no Norris not this time!

And yes i am sounding off pissed... because i have aired this alot of time to admin and alike on comms and in the chat, with a calm tone... but after i was just pushed aside as a whiner every time, yea i got a little pissed. I think that they should take a trip to the Tripitz and count the flak there! And then take a trip to the carriers and do the same.
The carriers have the 4 destroyers, with 3 or 4 .50 guns each. At the tripitz you have 2 or 3 suppers destroyers, and 1 cruiser + the flak on the ground. And the ground flak is not small caliber its the big boys.

Yet for some reason the only argument i get when i say this is that the carriers causs lag when tehy are allowed to fire... Hmmm wouldn't the same amount of other kind of flak do the same??? Guess not!
It couldn't be because i'm right and the makers all just fly blue and dont want to risk THEM getting lag when they are sinking our fleet without and fear of defense?? But dont mind us getting it when we try to assault their targets! Just a thought.

Like you say yourself, i have been here before with statements of the same kind... i also know that i have been right more than one time, and a map has been changed!
And yes you are doing good, but everybody is flawed!

Brcn
12-01-2006, 20:24
Hello,

First of all I have recently taken over the map cycle, and I DO think that previous fellows who were in charge of the maps did a great job, as I have only very few things to change or improve. However, nobody is prefect, there might still be something missing/not enough/much to make a mission go wrong.

Even though I don't like the way you express your opinions, I think the AAA amount for red in that map should be more. But not as much as you wanted to make it unplayable for the blue side.

Brcn
12-01-2006, 20:33
I also started to examine the mission but, Jtd just beat me to it. Your comments about the blue team having killer AAA over red team is totally wrong. See JtD's post above. The AAA can be low, but then they are low for both sides.

Veta
12-01-2006, 22:01
And no doubt Commander Keen and verify the above claims by looking for the files in his net cache.

Grey_Mouser
12-01-2006, 22:44
Personally, I really like the maps...it would be nice for red team if the Spit base was closer...sometime I fly one once, but it is sooo far away that it really loses its appeal...maybe a good thing if we don't want spits flying all over.

The only thing I really dislike is the ability for blue team to hover over the carriers....the 109 has a superior climb rate so if teams are even or tilted towards blue this can be aggrevating for take off...the secondary base is so far away and Hellcats are pretty useless without some altitude....

Not sure how to fix it...maybe an airstart for Hellcats a bit behind carriers but this may not be so good...more or more accurate AAA over red carriers would be cool. Very much a bummer when blue has a bit of a numbers advantage and they invariably find their way to hover over the carriers with impunity...otherwise the map is great!

Please change the landing carrier to an Essex class to allow for easier carrier traps.

Commander Keen
13-01-2006, 01:30
Okay... i just took a test run in the map, and the destroyer can deliever a fair amount of AA. IF you get very close to them, which seems to be the core problem with them!
I will make a compromise if you are so much against the carriers shooting... add 2 or 3 more destroyers, because the way the 3 we have now are placed they cant really help much. So if you add 2 in the middle of the fleet and 1 more on the left side of the fleet towards the main land, there will be enough so they can support eachother.

Grey_Mouser
13-01-2006, 01:40
Not sure what level the flak is set at...I think you can set it to "ace" and keeps small amount of more accurate flak....maybe not an option or already done.

NS-IceFire
13-01-2006, 03:39
Ok...well...this is my map. And so far I haven't even gotten to fly for the Blue team on this map and I enjoyed every minute of flying F6F's and F4U's against FW190s as the planeset is completely different than the usual European front map.

If I have any bias a'tall...and lets face it...everyone does...its for the red team.

Lets contend some points.

1) Carriers flak being off - once we had a situation where the time was extended on this map and the carriers awoke from their sleep. It was a disaster. FPS on my system began to drop until I was getting 5 FPS...every other player complained of the same thing. A group of 4 late war carriers equipped with the full complement of AA guns installed for anti-kamakazi operations can throw up more flak than anyone is going to be able to deal with short of a full on attack of bombers numbering in the 10 to 20 aircraft range.

2) Carrier defense - Defended by the aircraft that are taking off from them...this is a pretty big advantage as any pilot shot down is already at the target area for defense. Mind you he has to climb to attack but as most Heinkel attacks are going to be made at near sea level (to drop torpedoes or SC2000 bombs in skip bomb runs) they are going to be pretty effective. That and the Hellcat can just nose point and climb well enough to get altitude to attack. So combine what should be an effective CAP by the players on the team and add in a group of destroyers and you have a fairly significant barrier for the blue team to go through. And they have to sink most of the carriers to win so they have a pretty tall order.

3) Bismarck attack - This is something that maybe I can look at improving if there is a good consensus on this. There are quite a few flak batteries. Notice that I ensured that the Bismarck itself is not going to open fire...if it did...you'd have no chance. So instead there are a few flak positions. Frankly they didn't give me a huge problem...I flew my first sortie out ahead of a heavier group of attackers (some bomber pilots flying from the landbase) and supressed the flak batteries. A single Corsair with 2x500lb bombs, guns, and some luck can remove enough flak to allow the bombers to attack. Also...blue team has a fair distance to fly to provide defense so they can never be as readily available as red team is on the carriers.

I enjoy constructive crticism but I wouldn't personally call my work a joke. I'm very sorry if the map proves difficult for you but I've had contrary comments saying its their favorite map on the server.

Frankly if Tirpitz is going to be seriously reworked then my feeling is that we should remove it from the server lineup and wait for the actual Norway map to appear. Then we can have a more realistic setting...

My ultimate goal is to combine land aircraft like the Mosqutio and Beaufighter (Torbeau :D) with the Fleet Air Arm aircraft like the Hellcat, Corsair, and Seafire against the Luftwaffe's finest.

Xiola
13-01-2006, 08:28
I took a 190 over the carriers last night, I shot at one red plane and then ran from 3. I was getting away until a direct flak hit to the engine took away my speed, then I was easy meat.

Anyone else had much experience of how effective the flak is over the carriers? Is this just a one off lucky hit or is it pretty deadly?

Oh and Ice, take no notice of the guy who said this map is a joke, its a great map, looks gorgeous, is well put together and great fun to play.

It just needs tweaking a bit in favour of the reds, thats all.

MajorDamage
13-01-2006, 12:31
Ice, I love this map. I usually take a Pe8 with the 5000kg and a 10 sec delay. You get to have a nice long peaceful flight, (with drinks served and an inflight movie), whilst every German fighter on the map watches you on externals and lick their lips. Then some frantic action as the fighters pounce and you make a nice shallow dive toward the target... if you get through the resulting mushroom cloud tends not to leave much in terms of flak ;)

Crashin'Sakai
13-01-2006, 13:21
This is one of my favourite maps (along with Mariana).... We can do and enjoy different things in one map, and that's great.

Commander Keen
13-01-2006, 13:43
Well i can see i have ran my head against a wall here...!

Still the fact remains, what you intended the map to be like and how people act are 2 completly things Ice. You wanted people to defend the carriers... which is a good idea, but you forgot that alot of the people that fly on the server dont even read the brief yet try to help their team, they just want kills.
And because of this, as soon as the germans have taken down the western cdestroyer the other 2 wont give out any flak to talk about across the fleet. So they can just fly straight into the carriers and bomb them from there on.

Brcn
13-01-2006, 14:57
NS-Icefire, your private message folder is full ;)

Please pm me.

Xiola
13-01-2006, 18:54
I htink the problem is that bombers can get thru quite easily due to a lot of red people hanging over the carriers waitng for the planes to attack.

The bombers come in, drop their bombs, all the reds run after him for the kill, and so another blue comes in, drops his bombs, and round again we go.

Could we have a few flak ships a bit towards the shore with ace AI? This way they would be far away enough not to be on screen when the carriers are, and therefore have no impact on FPS, but would hit low flying bombers etc on their way in.

Brcn
13-01-2006, 19:22
The Ace AAA is usually 1 hit kill. Too annoying for a bomber flying 10 mins to target.

Grey_Mouser
13-01-2006, 20:53
People won't defend the carriers...we like shooting down bombers but if I could sink the carrier myself without getting banned, I'd get an airstart!

Every map should have a story to enact and this one does...it is great. Sometimes though, people don't behave the way you want...we all fly for different reasons....I enjoy the air to air confrontations and find mud moving to be secondary and whether I win the map or not is of no consequence....I do like to dogfight though :D in case anyone hadn't noticed.

The map is really cool and I think it needs to be left alone largely....The only issue is that the blue target area tends to draw them like mosquitos and while it may sound ok to be close to the target area in when you get shot down...a lot of us don't like to get shot down! Putting the target area next to a base decreases the survival of the enemy's fighters and your team mates ground pounders....the guys who benefit from this arrangement are the fighters of the guys on the offensive....they climb, climb, climb, climb and kill...kill...kill...kill.

Flew the mission yesterday...when red had the advantage, I got altitude, speed and all kinds of cool stuff...half way through the map the tide turned, blue team had more players and I was pounced on within minutes of taking off three times and had to evade torpedoes, bombs and cannons...which I did not do real well. I never got above 1000 meters and had to bail twice and was blown up once....the whole time, blue team was camped over our carriers. Yes, eventually they took damage, but I quit flying after that. I absolutely will not fly if I can't take off my own base and at least climb to an altitude to suit my strategy for the map. no thanks.

Right before I left the map, one of the carriers were sunk...ahhhh airstart....Blue team was sent packing immediately.

Altitude + speed = life

The map needs to stay the same...there could be some alternatives in the event the base gets swamped...alternatives that don't require a half hour flight with inflight meals, drinks and movies....it would be nice, but maybe not practical to make it unhealthy for blue team to camp over the carriers...maybe a couple more carriers behind the original ones for those of us that like to climb a bit...or the spit base closer....no serious changes, if any, needed.

Not all maps will be equal....this one seems to be pretty equal actually and I think the advantage swings quickly depending on which side has numerical advantage....personally, I just like options when my base is being swarmed.

NS-IceFire
13-01-2006, 21:36
Well i can see i have ran my head against a wall here...!

Still the fact remains, what you intended the map to be like and how people act are 2 completly things Ice. You wanted people to defend the carriers... which is a good idea, but you forgot that alot of the people that fly on the server dont even read the brief yet try to help their team, they just want kills.
And because of this, as soon as the germans have taken down the western cdestroyer the other 2 wont give out any flak to talk about across the fleet. So they can just fly straight into the carriers and bomb them from there on.
Nearly all of my maps are considered that some people will as you say, not read the briefing and head on and do whatever they want. Usually this means that you can draw a roughly straight line from red base to blue base. In this instance, even the guys who aren't reading the briefing, are going to contribute to fleet defense because they are flying around looking for blue and the easiest way to do that is to fly towards their base.

So somewhere in between they are going to meet something...fighters or bombers...and in my mind that means that they are at least contributing something to the objective. This is actually unusual in a map as usually you want to protect a given area and not just your base.

So I don't understand what you mean here. Yes I realize that not everyone reads the briefing (not really my problem) and I design with that in the back of my mind as much as possible. In this instance I believe it works and I don't understand how its not...

Grey_Mouser
13-01-2006, 22:39
The Ace AAA is usually 1 hit kill. Too annoying for a bomber flying 10 mins to target.

Really good to fend off those pesky base campers...we need more of these at our bases.

Xiola
14-01-2006, 11:54
A few at the blue base on Berlin map would be good.

If there is no bonus 262 then blue get hammered on that map. The last few times I have played it, red are swarming around the blue base.

But anyway, wrong map to talk about here.

I think the tirpitz map is ok too, I was just htinking of suggestions because people were saying that blue team had a big advantage. I havent particularly seen this myself, it always seems pretty even to me.

Its a hard and dedicated job to sink carriers, it cant be done on a whim, with no thought.

Zorin
05-05-2006, 23:04
Could we please add the Ju88 for the blue team? The Heinkel is pretty mutch worthless against more than one attacker, whereas the Ju88 can hold herself even in a fur ball of 3 enemys.

Firelok
06-05-2006, 01:44
This is a great map and need little or no intervention for either side,
He111 torpedo planes capable of heavily damaging enemy targets at long range(outside AAA)
I have flown FW190 at low alt over carriers and really only been concerned by enemy fighters, not AAA.
As for flying reds if you arrive over target without escorts and no AAA taken out you're going to take hits.
Red fighters are primarily concerned with protecting the carriers rather than suppressing or destroying AAA over target. This is a tactical issue and not an issue for the map maker,they got it right.
Map making is a time consuming and painstaking task and when it's got right it needs to be applauded, it's for your benefit!

Zorin
06-05-2006, 03:06
I didn't complain about AAA at all Fire and especially as you are talking to me you don't have to mention the pains of mapbuilding. I'm well aware of it. But as this map was build before we had the flyable Ju88, and it has been added to several maps now, I don't see why we shouldn't add it here. Especially considering the heavy bombers on the red side. One well planed sortie and they complete their objective with ease.

And you gave the reason why add the tougher Ju88 yourself:
Red fighters are primarily concerned with protecting the carriers rather than suppressing or destroying AAA over target.

Firelok
06-05-2006, 13:01
A lot of what I posted above was in response to the whole thread, sorry for that confusion.
However I still see no need to add Ju88, He111 torpedo bomber is up to the task.